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Re: [jakarta.ee-community] [microprofile] FEEDBACK FOR ALL OF US Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration
Guillermo, 

As for your first point, this is something for various groups to decide, the Spec Committee, PMC among others. The individual specs cannot do this without coordination, in that sense Otavio reaching out to them seems premature, but it doesn't justify the verbal lash out or dressing-down against him. 

As for the second point, https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=382 has made it rather clear, that the former Spec Leads of JSR 382 and EG members involved intend to contribute to a future Jakarta EE spec in this area. 

Werner 

Guillermo González de Agüero <z06.guillermo@xxxxxxxxx> schrieb am Mo., 23. Sep. 2019, 17:30:
I totally agree MP future needs to be decided by the MP community. But IMHO here we are talking about two important Jakarta EE concerns:
- Is is acceptable for Jakarta EE to depend on MP specs?
- Do we want to ask MP to move their Config spec to Jakarta? (Wether they would like to do it or not is part of another discussion which would only take place if we decide we want to request them it in the first place).

I don't think Otavio's mail was out of scope for the original list given we has only trying to bootstrap a discussion about how Jakarta EE would like to proceeed regarding MP.


Regards,

Guillermo González de Agüero

El dom., 22 sept. 2019 23:09, Amelia Eiras <aeiras@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> escribió:
Hola from home OSS Community, 

Otavio— as the author who started this thread, how can we help you be the VERY example of proper OSS outreach via the formal mediums utilized by the MicroProfile Community? 
You chose to send this msg to the Jakarta EE spec leads forum, do you actually think they get to decide the MicroProfile future?
This thread started as a fail of an outreach from your part.  I get it, OC1 travels and exhausting, it happens. NOW—  you are a MP Committer, you are a Jakarta EE Committer— both communities have their formal outlets to discuss stuff. Therefore, let our future actions show that you/me/us, in both communities, are not only paying attention to how we communicate but most importantly that we are capable of growing with the feedback provided thus far and that our actions show care.  

To everyone else—  who nicely participated in this thread created during the hectic OC1 Sept 15th, please add your questions & follow-ups to the working document titled: EF IP Flow Q&A [2] that the MicroProfile Community started on June 1st via the Community Hangout with forum thread [1] along side with the thread in the correct forum.


+1 to Mark follow up. 

Reza—  it is ok to if you feel frustrated & may choose to checkout out of any project as stated when you write “...has been pretty futile. Hence, I fear I must decline your kind invitation because I do not see it as worthwhile at the current time personally.”   Kudos on stating it via open forums- after all, it is your chosen voice and voices are welcomed. 
 I have stated multiple times via diverse mediums and happy do so again, anyone reading this thread can hopefully smile: 

 “if you want to keep everyone happy, you should be selling ice-cream instead of working as a Contributor in OSS”— I stand by this msg. :)  

After spending 10 days sharing much with many of the traveling and locals who form our amazing ecosystem, I want to remind each one of us one of my favorite OSS blogs by Rich Bowen written in 11/18 yet valid today b/c its core is our individual voices in OSS communities.

QUOTE: 
"By wearing the smallest hat possible –i.e., speaking with the voice with the least authority– you allow other people to be free to express their own dissenting opinions without feeling that they have already been overruled. This is in line with our culture of providing a level playing field, where all voices are equal, and all opinions are weighed the same."

Twitter reminder circulating again given ASF 20yrs and that with events like ApacheCon the week before OC1 and OC1 it is worth the reminder: https://twitter.com/zahedab/status/1175782872273178624?s=20

Lastly, the MicroProfile project has a flat structure where everyone who actively participates, gets the merit and gets to directly influence the project.
Titles and vendors are meaningless - b/c we have chosen to protect its flat structure from day zero to now. 
What matters is each Contributors’ actions. Her/his merit is owned and acknowledgments become true by other individuals, who prioritize showing up, those whose actions lead by example on getting shit done and moving way from potential “drama”. 
Therefore, in MP any individual “entitlement" is crushed at each turn. We grow as a stronger community each day b/c we choose to ask more questions and avoid throwing assumptions.  
The respect to protect our time and that of others is everything. After all, investment in OSS demands each individual owning and being responsible for debt-thrown. You, me, us affirm via projective-mode, our stands that are hopefully fluid and adjusted as we fail and stand up to make not only ourselves but others just a tiny bit better. 
THAT is what makes MicroProfile welcome anyone who wants to try helping out do so without barriers or glamouring BS.

My take: MicroProfile continues to state that it is not ready to be part of the Jakarta EE project.
the MP community and its amazing fluid progress won’t be halt nor forced to join any project.  
This has nothing to do with the current reality of the Jakarta EE. MP is a complement to Jakarta EE, therefore it is up to the Jakarta EE contributors to utilize the MP APIs as she/he see it fit. 
Lets first and foremost focus on the independent growth of both communities. Reminder that the management of both communities is not the same. 
MP is fully run by its Community without layers. — This is my voice as a Microprofile Contributor.

Coffee at hand, wishing everyone a beautiful rest of a Sunday/Monday!



On Sep 22, 2019, at 4:58 AM, reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

From what I have observed time and again, trying to initiate any discussion around any of this in the MicroProfile alias has been pretty futile. Hence, I fear I must decline your kind invitation because I do not see it as worthwhile at the current time personally. If others deem differently, I am sure they will try to initiate discussion once again and hope it will go somewhere this time around.

As I said, at the current time, my outlook is mostly to wait and see what happens. I am afraid there comes a point when that is all one is motivated to utilize their personal bandwidth towards and simply hope things will sort themselves out (or not).

That all said, if a discussion does start and appears to progress towards some kind of sensible path forward different from past patterns, it might find the motivation to chime in. I do fairly closely watch the goings on there.

Reza Rahman
Principal Program Manager
Java on Azure

Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Little <markclittle@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 9/22/19 6:40 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions <jakartaee-spec-project-leads@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration

Reza, as has been pointed out to you several times already, whilst it’s fine to have discussions and opinions about other efforts happening elsewhere here, the final decisions for those efforts (e.g., Config) need to be driven by those communities (e.g., MP) and not by Jakarta EE. Just as I wouldn’t expect the MP community, say, to try to determine the future of a Jakarta EE specification or an open source effort happening in ASF, for example. So please take those thoughts and opinions to the right communities and let’s continue to respect them accordingly.

The notion that Oracle cannot contribute to MP due to issues around IP flow is not news to a number of individuals/groups within MP but it is good that it is now out in the open. I know that those discussions had already started within MP lists months ago anyway but had stalled due to the concerted effort by everyone to get Jakarta EE 8 out. Now I believe they will restart, so once again a great time for people (yourself included) to get involved in the right lists and with the correct community. However, I strongly suggest that statements like "if MicroProfile even can be said to have much of a defined process” be left behind because they can be too easily misinterpreted in the negative and lead to conflicts and defensive behaviours that won’t result in any easy resolution. Let’s all stick to the facts and behave accordingly.

Thanks,

Mark.


On 21 Sep 2019, at 15:32, reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

As Oracle leadership correctly mentioned during Oracle Code One, there are even bigger issues besides the fact that these are fundamentally different processes (if MicroProfile even can be said to have much of a defined process) and that this will introduce complexity, inconsistency and confusion basically forever for everyone involved - especially people that will need to advocate for this technology as independents. The IP flow for MicroProfile is murky. As a result, I don't think Oracle can even legally accept just incorporating MicroProfile into Jakarta EE without further proper standardization. This is indeed why Oracle employees are not allowed to contribute to MicroProfile today.

The fact that MicroProfile Configuration is stable is the very reason it makes sense to properly assimilate and harmonize it into Jakarta EE as opposed to keep it in MicroProfile any more. In my view, that cannot be said of many other if any other MicroProfile specifications.

Reza Rahman
Principal Program Manager
Java on Azure

Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Guillermo González de Agüero <z06.guillermo@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 9/21/19 7:16 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions <jakartaee-spec-project-leads@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration

One problem I see with Jakarta EE depending on MP specs is the different backward compatibility policies. MP only allows breaking compatibility on major versions while I expect Jakarta EE to stay even more conservative (similar to Java EE).

In that sense, moving the Config spec to Jakarta EE (keeping the package) would basically stabilize its processes to the same level as Jakarta EE. The Config spec is pretty mature so this move wouldn't hurt it.

But for the time being, and given that we all agree we don't want to change packages, I think it's reasonable for Jakarta NoSQL to depend on MP Config while we decide how to handle this situation. In the end, the API will be the same.

El sáb., 21 sept. 2019 12:38, Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> escribió:
Scott,
Jakarta JNoSQL needs to rely on MP Config. The discussion is to make MP Config adopted by Jakarta Specs without any package name changes. Jakarta specs are available to MP specs already. Personally, I would like to see MP specs to be adopted by Jakarta specs.
Thanks 
Emily 


On Sep 19, 2019 at 3:38 pm, <Scott Kurz> wrote:

As I'm reading this I'm trying to understand why there'd need to be a Jakarta Config spec in order for individual Jakarta specs like NoSQL, etc. to use MicroProfile Config.

Is this fundamentally different from the individual Jakarta specs evolving to use new Java language features (a process not controlled by Jakarta).

If it gets to the point that there are a set of special cases for Jakarta applications then maybe that would be a good time to launch a Jakarta Config spec, but for now couldn't individual specs just start using MP Config and see where it goes?

That said.. I think it's smart to discuss first and get a consensus this isn't a completely wrong direction to head down..

------------------------------------------------------
Scott Kurz
WebSphere Batch and Compute Grid
Development and Level 3 Team Lead
http://www.ibm.com/support/techdocs/atsmastr.nsf/WebIndex/WP102544
skurz@xxxxxxxxxx
--------------------------------------------------------

Inactive hide details for Mark Little ---09/19/2019 10:16:21 AM---+1 > On 18 Sep 2019, at 20:35, Josh Juneau <juneau001@gmail.cMark Little ---09/19/2019 10:16:21 AM---+1 > On 18 Sep 2019, at 20:35, Josh Juneau <juneau001@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

From: Mark Little <markclittle@xxxxxxxxx>
To: JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions <jakartaee-spec-project-leads@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 09/19/2019 10:16 AM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration
Sent by: jakartaee-spec-project-leads-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx




+1
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