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Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles
+1

On 21 May 2018, at 14:50, Richard Monson-Haefel <rmonson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I agree that responding to market conditions and interpretations is probably just as important at this point as technology.  The truth is that the Java EE platform has, in some circles, a poor reputation - undeservedly. But as was said a long time ago, “A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on.”

The point is: We have to work very hard to dispel the FUD surrounding Java EE, and in turn Jakarata EE, in order to make progress in the market and to do that we have to focus on perception as much as pure technology.

On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 10:16 AM reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
You know I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, but as I suggested the truth is that none of this is about technical merit. Sometimes we really do need to just bow to where the market is driving us and not fight it. Once we have the technology on firmer footing is the time to explain to the marker why we are right. That's not now.

The market demand from where I clearly have seen again and again is allowing people to start with Java EE with nothing more than Servlet and a la carte let them add whatever else on top. In addition there is a viable smaller market for one or two sensible profiles. Right now people also want fat jars and hollow uber jars.

Giving people basically what we've been trying to push for years plus some ability to remove things or define things is yet another road to fighting another uphill battle that's honestly tiresome. The end result of where we are today should be telling us loud and clear we need to be thinking about these things differently going forward.

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 5/20/18 4:40 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles

Hi,

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 11:30 PM, reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I am totally with Mark on these particular issues. Whatever the actual merits of the argument that we can argue endlessly, the reality is that customers cite Java EE "weight" as a reason to not adopt it with Docker/Cloud/Microservices, etc.

It's true that this is being cited, although it's indeed "weight' between quotes. With only a few exceptions I've seen the actual weight (startup time / memory size / footprint on disk) of the supposedly lighter weight solution actually been approximately the same size or even bigger.

People arguing that they use e.g. Tomcat because it starts in 500ms and is only 7MB in size, but then they add 50MB worth of libraries to /lib and an other 40MB of libraries to WEB-INF/lib. The combined whole being just under 100MB in disk space.

As a second point, a (standard) static config + pruning tool would again address this concern, and I argue it can do even better than any profile ever can.

Kind regards,
Arjan

 

Additionally I believe other than minimizing endless conflict with Spring folks over CDI, making clear what Java EE is and how well adopted/not it is, a Servlet only core is also the right answer to combat the criticism that Java EE is fat.

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Little <mlittle@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 5/18/18 3:47 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles


On 18 May 2018, at 14:40, arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Mark Little <mlittle@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
This isn’t just about vendor choice. You are certainly not alone in being happy with the full profile option. However, there are other classes of users/developers that aren’t and these have existed since the dawn of J2EE. For example, some people want to deploy their favour app server on to constrained devices which may be running on the cloud where an additional 50MB costs real money when run for hours or days or weeks or longer.

I wonder, is there in practice any service / device where a mere 50MB of disk space makes all the difference?

You mean apart from cloud (yes, those 1 cent costs do add up, and there’s private cloud deployments of which you may be unaware and have some funky architectural choices behind them), IoT? Oh and maybe it’s not just 50MB but some modern implementations can still be a bit “plump” in some areas ;)


 
Some developers want to reduce the maintenance complexity or boot time of their favourite app server by stripping out those capabilities they don’t want.


For that particular issue a static configuration (such as liberty's server.xml and in limited way JBoss/WildFly's standalone.xml), and/or the aforementioned prune tool would work just as well.

And then we get into the world of portability. As a developer I want to know a priori that my app will work across app servers and I really don’t want to have to check when I do the migration. Having app server A and B both say they support and are compliant with Profile X is extremely useful.


 
Now you could argue that these developers could just do this themselves anyway, e.g., JBossAS has supported this kind of pruning from the start. However, if you want portability and interoperability of your apps so you’re not tied to a specific app server implementation/vendor, having standardised profiles is the right approach.

Or a standardised static config, perhaps?

And what would we call those static configs. Oh hold on, let me suggest … profiles? ;)


Kind regards,
Arjan

 

Mark.


On 16 May 2018, at 23:16, Dominik Hufnagel <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

As a user of JavaEE, I do not get the idea behind having multiple profiles. May someone can explain the benefits for users? If I can have a single profile with all available features, I would take it and I do not bother using a server which is 50MB larger of one with a „smaller“ profile. I can understand that it could be harder for vendors to enter the market having to provide the full profile. But for me, this would not be an argument for using smaller profiles. I’d rather take a server from a vendor which offers me the full profile. 
 

If I would use the MicroProfile and want to have JPA, do I have to add external dependencies? I really like some of the new APIs of the MicroProfile and would be happy to see them coming to JakartaEE.

Dominik
 
 
Von: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] Im Auftrag von Mark Little
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. Mai 2018 11:42
An: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Betreff: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles
 
Hopefully others have responded already but … it’s for both: quick summary … vendors so they can ensure conformance and users so they can ensure portability and interoperability of their apps.
 
Speaking with my MicroProfile hat on, I for one would not want to trade the current MicroProfile for a full Jakarta EE profile and neither would our users.
 
Mark.
 
 
On 7 May 2018, at 17:33, arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
 
So then the first question is perhaps; who wants profiles and benefits from it? Is a profile intended for vendors or for users?
 
 
---
Mark Little
 
JBoss, by Red Hat
Registered Address: Red Hat Ltd, 6700 Cork Airport Business Park, Kinsale Road, Co. Cork.
Registered in the Companies Registration Office, Parnell House, 14 Parnell Square, Dublin 1, Ireland, No.304873
Directors:Michael Cunningham (USA), Vicky Wiseman (USA), Michael O'Neill, Keith Phelan, Matt Parson (USA)
 
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Registered Address: Red Hat Ltd, 6700 Cork Airport Business Park, Kinsale Road, Co. Cork.
Registered in the Companies Registration Office, Parnell House, 14 Parnell Square, Dublin 1, Ireland, No.304873
Directors:Michael Cunningham (USA), Vicky Wiseman (USA), Michael O'Neill, Keith Phelan, Matt Parson (USA)


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--
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Directors:Michael Cunningham (USA), Vicky Wiseman (USA), Michael O'Neill, Keith Phelan, Matt Parson (USA)

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