| Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Why not dropping EARs in Jakarta EE? |
IMO it would be sufficient just to clearly state the deprecation. It means: no future features, updates, etc. I would deprecate the whole API in the umbrella spec and not each individual class or methods.
Btw. I think it would be o.k. to remove SOAP completely in ~2 years from Jakarta EE completely. Vendors could still choose to support it. The same discussion as CMP...
> On 30. Apr 2018, at 17:16, Christopher D. McCoy <christopher.mccoy1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I would tend to agree with Adam but would need to really understand the real world technical implication of making SOAP deprecated
> for a proposed period of 10 years or even removing it completely for that matter. Does this mean that code which uses these libraries
> will see deprecation warnings for 10 years when they go to do a simple compile? If so, 10 years seems like a long time to spit out warnings.
> Is there already a precedence for deprecation which java developers will already expect to be maintained moving forward?
>
> I know some people and even tools that take such warnings very serious when they consider technical debt and long term road mapping
> so this is certainly worth resolving in the near term.
>
> Regards,
>
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Adam Bien <abien@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Regardless of our feelings, SOAP and IIOP are not the "future" and not updated for years. There are no conference talks, no articles, no fresh opensource projects. IMO this means "deprecation".
> We could deprecate it now and remove it in 10 years. But the signal should be clear. Otherwise we will have the same conversation about the integration partners in 10 years :-)
>
> Its not about "forcing", its about setting a signal.
>
> > On 30. Apr 2018, at 17:03, Michael Parmeley <mjparme@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > We can’t force our integration partners to provide us something other than SOAP services, we can recommend but not force, and SOAP is still heavily used. It would be a mistake to remove or deprecate it.
> >
> >> On Apr 30, 2018, at 9:57 AM, Andy Gumbrecht <andy.is@xxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >> +1 to deprecate 'things' in general. It gives customers a clear message as to what we're not going to support in the future, but also time to migrate to something new.
> >>
> >> Andy Gumbrecht.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 04/30/2018 04:16 PM, Adam Bien wrote:
> >>> We could deprecate SOAP now, and remove it in a few years.
> >>>
> >>>> On 30. Apr 2018, at 16:15, reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I definitely see many customers still using SOAP. It may make sense to drop JAX-WS altogether some time in the future, but I think it's best to wait a few more years right now.
> >>>>
> >>>> The right solution to many of these issues in my view is Jakarata EE fully embracing modularity, perhaps ideally based on JPMS.
> >>>>
> >>>> We should continue to have various profiles such as:
> >>>>
> >>>> * Core (Servlet only)
> >>>> * Web
> >>>> * Microservice
> >>>> * Complete
> >>>>
> >>>> However, more importantly unlike today with Java EE, the platform should be clear that implementations will allow the user to add or remove Jakarta EE technologies with compatible versions at will. GlassFish was well on its way to achieving this under Sun ownership until everything with GlassFish went south with the Oracle acquisition.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
> >>>>
> >>>> -------- Original message --------
> >>>> From: Peter Richardson <astropcr@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Date: 4/30/18 9:54 AM (GMT-05:00)
> >>>> To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@eclipse.org >
> >>>> Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Why not dropping EARs in Jakarta EE?
> >>>>
> >>>> Why would you want to get rid of SOAP support? It is still heavily used in security critical deployments for its strict XML schema message enforcement and ability to easily embed certain security AA constructs such as SAML tokens.
> >>>>
> >>>> JakartaEE has to be more than microservices and REST.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Peter Richardson-
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:21 AM Adam Bien <abien@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>> I could find some use cases for EARs -- SOAP / JAX-WS might be a better candidate for deprecation / pruning,..
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 30. Apr 2018, at 15:19, Peter Richardson <astropcr@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree completely with Mrinal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> While microservices are hot today we need to keep in mind Java EE is used for a lot more than that and there are many, large, and expensive to refactor, legacy EE projects that are still smarting from the decision to drop EJB. If these projects are to keep pace with Jakarta EE's more rapid release pace and the resulting testing and acredidation requirements levied by customers then backwards compatibility will be key.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would rather this group work towards making EAR a real cross-platform specification so that an EAR could be deployed on Wildfly, GlassFish, TomcatEE etc. without reconfiguration. Right now I agree that this is an issue as well we recently moved our EAR deployment from GlassFish to JBossEAP with some headaches.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Peter Richardson-
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:53 AM Mrinal Kanti <mrinal.kanti@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>> Why are we still discussing this?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Java EE had profiles (web and full) support since v6. It is for good reasons that the web profile has been implemented as a subset of the full profile and not as a stand-alone profile, Applications that work with web profile should not break when working with full profile thereby assuring upgrade-ability and portability. If CDI or any other platform technologies has any problems inter-operating with the full profile then it is the responsibility of the respective platform technology stakeholders to address that in their own specs/implementations unless there are valid issues/limitations with any of the full profile specs/implementations. In addition to the EAR support mandated by the JEE full specs, several app servers have provided their own proprietary classloader mechanisms to make packaging and deployment more flexible albeit, at the cost of vendor lock-in/portability.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Modifying EAR support will have severe impact on several existing enterprise packaging and deployment scenarios especially involving shared libraries and entities (such as JAXB, JPA). Also the concept of having a inter-application-wide parent classloader facilitates several implementation approaches such as scoped objects and simplified transaction boundary realization - stuff that are not easy to implement over microservices (and are often ignorantly dismissed as anti-patterns).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> JPMS support is fairly new and its spec has been validated largely against the JDK libraries. Even then, I see it as augmenting the EAR classloader specs rather than replacing it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marking EAR support as optional/deprecated will only cause more problems as more and more specs(and TCKs) would start ignoring it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Personally, I do not see any strong argument against the EAR support so long as enterprises are still using monolithic deployments. Though micro-services are increasingly becoming popular, the monolithic deployment approaches are still relevant in several use cases.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Besides, the issue raised by the OP has already been addressed in the original GH issue.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Mrinal
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Dmitry Kornilov <dmitry.kornilov@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>> I think that Jakarta EE should have profiles. Full profile should be as much backwards compatible as possible with previous version (read Java EE). It should support EARs. Other profiles (Web, Micro?) may not support EARs, or it should be up to implementations to support it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> — Dmitry
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 11:55, Alexander Salvanos <salvanos@xxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>> while I agree, that dropping EAR's feels like a good idea, for large scaled Java EE projects in huge companies, this could result into costs we could avoid, by keeping backward compatibilty.
> >>>>>> Just like RMI-IIOP we should begin at the most with the term PROPOSED OPTIONAL and later OPTIONAL for a long period, before it can be dropped.
> >>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>> Alex
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gesendet: Montag, 30. April 2018 um 11:27 Uhr
> >>>>>> Von: "Adam Bien" <abien@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> An: "Jakarta EE community discussions" <jakarta.ee-community@eclipse.org >
> >>>>>> Betreff: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Why not dropping EARs in Jakarta EE?
> >>>>>> HI Ralph,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> EARs are helpful to deploy multiple WARs at once. E.g. a main microservice with a corresponding sidecar.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> However: I didn't created any EARs since Java EE 6,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> adam
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 28. Apr 2018, at 10:06, Ralph Soika <ralph.soika@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> to my background: I have been developing enterprise applications for more than 10 years, mostly as EARs. So I am mainly a User of EE and was never part of a EE working group. My opinion about EARs after years is: It's an awful disaster if you're trying to develop an ear platform independently. So why should it be called 'standard'?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Today I wonder what can be achieved with an EAR, which could not be achieved easier and clearer with a clean microservice architecture?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So I'm suggesting removing EAR support from Jakarta EE. This makes the platform easier to learn and more lightweight.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you like, you can read the following discussion. It's about the question of how to package shared EJB libraries in one ear. And it shows how awkward it is to talk about EAR deployment questions.
> >>>>>>> https://github.com/payara/Payara/issues/2508# issuecomment-385129757
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What is your opinion about the future support of the concept of EAR?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ===
> >>>>>>> Ralph
> >>>>>>>
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> --
> Regards,
>
> Christopher D. McCoy
> 240-501-7414
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