Where did you
think I suggested that the PMC should override self-governance
of the committers?
Why do you think there's no value in the PMC offering advice
to projects even if there's no way to enforce that projects
follow the advice? Why is it not possible that some projects
would choose to follow the advice even if it is not forced on
them?
Have you asked the PMC if they find your constant reminders
helpful? Clearly you must be doing this because you think it
is helpful. What if it is not? Would you continue doing it?
There
is another misunderstanding. The PMC's role of "oversight"
is to guarantee all subprojects stick to the EDP rules. It
does not imply overriding self-governance of the
committers at free will. Certainly you can ask for their
advice in any other direction (just as you could ask
anybody else), but without powers to enforce it, it is
simply in vain as it is not enforceable.
As
long as the PMC participates in discussions that fall into
the self-governance of the subprojects without clearly
marking the answer as personal opinion or being
non-authoritative, I doubt that all PMC members have fully
understood where the PMC's powers end and the
self-governance of the sub-projects start. And as long as
that is the case, I will be the scapegoat that reminds
everybody.
BTW,
I'm pretty sure the PMC is mature enough to tell me
directly when they have the impression that they can leave
incubation state.
-Markus
From: Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 19:18
To: Markus KARG; 'EE4J PMC Discussions'
Subject: Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming
convention?
The PMC is supposed to provide oversight
for all the projects, that's why I'm looking for their
advice. If the PMC wants to turn this into a poll of all
Committers, that's fine with me.
And I'm sure the PMC already knows well what they can and
can not do, you don't need to keep reminding them. I've seen
no evidence that they've been acting against the EDP. If
you see such evidence, you should take it up with them
directly.
Markus KARG wrote on 10/31/2018 11:04 AM:
Bill,
once
again you misunderstood my postings. I really do not tell
you what *you* can do or not, I tell *the PMC* what they
cannot do according to EF rules. I also want better
inter-project collaboration, but *the PMC's* mailing list
is the wrong place for reaching other projects. BTW, there
is no such group like "ourselves" in the EF, there only is
"the public", "the committers" and "the PMC members".
In
fact you have my full support for better inter-project
communication among the committers to reach all
consistency wanted by committers. What I like to express
simply is that the PMC is de jure not the right entity to
reach this concensus, as the PMC has neither the power to
enforce consistency in your questions unless technically
needed, nor is it the inter-project communication area. So
what will be the *effective* outcome? What you apparently
strive for will de facto only be reached by asking the
committers of all projects, not anybody else. You reach
absolutely not what you want if the PMC says "yes, good
idea" but some committers simply do not follow because
they possibly have a different opinion.
Besides
that, I will keep telling what the EDP says as long as I
have the impression that it is either not understood or
intentionally ignored.
-Markus
From: Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 18:19
To: EE4J PMC Discussions; Markus KARG
Subject: Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming
convention?
Markus, you
really are not helping by continuing to repeat your mantra.
Some of us want to do things in a consistent way
across the community. Unless your goal is to force
every project to be different, please just accept that
you're allowed to do things differently in your projects,
but some of the rest of us might want to do things the same
way across multiple project, on purpose. We're not going to
tell you that you have to do things the same way, but please
don't tell us that we can't conspire among ourselves
to do things the same way.
Thanks.
Markus KARG wrote on 10/30/2018 11:07
PM:
I
know Bill and others don't like to hear it anymore, but
unless there is an urgent need to decide this topic by
the PMC, according to the EDP this is up to each project
to decide or even let the committer himself decide.
-Markus
I
agree. We use annotated tags when releasing
MicroProfile releases. I think we should continue that
practice with Jakarta EE.
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Java EE architect
e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx
Twitter: @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
ee4j-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
wrote on 10/30/2018 01:28:54 PM:
> From:
Raymond Auge <raymond.auge@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: ee4j-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: 10/30/2018
01:29 PM
> Subject: Re:
[ee4j-pmc] git tags naming convention?
> Sent by: ee4j-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> I think
having recourse to see _who_ created the tag
(annotated
> tags) is
more useful than not.
>
> - Ray
>
> On Tue, Oct
30, 2018 at 2:23 PM Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> (Apparently no one
cares about this stuff but I'll ask anyway...)
>
> Assuming
the PMC recommendation is to use just the version
number as
> the tag, do
people prefer git lightweight tags or git annotated
tags?
> Ivar Grimstad
wrote on 10/01/2018 10:43 PM:
> We have not
defined any conventions for EE4J for this. Personally,
I
> like naming
the tag as the version number of the released
artifact.
>
> Should we
define EE4J-wide conventions or just leave it to the
projects?
>
> Ivar
>
> On Tue, Oct
2, 2018 at 12:58 AM Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> Is there an
EE4J-wide convention for how to name the git tags for
> releases of
various sorts?
>
_______________________________________________
> ee4j-pmc
mailing list
> ee4j-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change
your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
> unsubscribe
from this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/ee4j-pmc
> --
> Java Champion, JCP
EC/EG Member, EE4J PMC, JUG Leader
>
>
_______________________________________________
> ee4j-pmc
mailing list
> ee4j-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change
your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
> unsubscribe
from this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/ee4j-pmc
>
>
_______________________________________________
> ee4j-pmc
mailing list
> ee4j-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change
your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
> unsubscribe
from this list, visit
> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/ee4j-pmc
>
>
> --
> Raymond
Augé (@rotty3000)
> Senior Software
Architect Liferay, Inc. (@Liferay)
> Board Member &
EEG Co-Chair, OSGi Alliance (@OSGiAlliance)
>
_______________________________________________
> ee4j-pmc
mailing list
> ee4j-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change
your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
> unsubscribe
from this list, visit
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?
>
u=https-3A__www.eclipse.org_mailman_listinfo_ee4j-2Dpmc&d=DwICAg&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-
>
siA1ZOg&r=R9dtOS3afYnRUmu_zogmh0VnVYl2tse_V7QBUA9yr_4&m=Cm4cgUhrLD_uVH9--
>
unOi7xolch9Ps9U5KcUxYzrJ04&s=oTbWjeFsbbgP3UCu8xWwwRAq3jnwsu_NVhdqE9hqUj4&e=
_______________________________________________
ee4j-pmc mailing list
ee4j-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/ee4j-pmc
