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Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals

Sadly you are making a big assumption that Oracle is that enlightened, judicious and rational of a company. That said, we in the Java EE Guardians community still do operate under that assumption whether it is true or not. Assuming anything else does not lead us anywhere good.

We will be basically asking Oracle together as a community exactly what you did in the next few days. Hopefully it makes some kind of difference.

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Alexander Salvanos <salvanos@xxxxxx>
Date: 11/30/17 10:06 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: EE4J community discussions <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals

Dear Colleagues, Dear Oracle, 
 
Perhaps we are too hasty in denouncing Oracle. And perhaps the preconceptions that Oracle has made to establish the Third Party Usage Guidelines for Oracle Trademarks are incorrect for the Java Enterprise Edition. At the very least, it's my opinion that Oracle should be aware of how it responds to its reputation by putting obstacles that were previously set for small projects. The Java Enterprise Edition is not a small project, but the largest Java project ever. Formerly called Java Professional Edition. I can imagine that many top managers and decision makers would change their mind if they knew in detail what we are really talking about here. Oracle still wants to earn on Java Enterprise Edition? That's fine. But that can only succeed if the naming is rational and regulated by marketing aspects. @Dear Oracle, please address the topic to your sales people, marketing strategists and board members. We all have the same goal. Please release any naming option. My belief is that we think wrong, and Oracle is haven those thoughts already. For this reason, I believe that we should make the decision of naming closely with the sales people of Oracle and with the common goal to make Java EE / EE4J successfull.
 
Best Regards,
Alex
 
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. November 2017 um 14:50 Uhr
Von: "Mariano Amar" <mariano.amar@xxxxxxxxxx>
An: "EE4J community discussions" <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Betreff: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals
I think that's the very point of this issue.

We're not asking Oracle to allow us use of JAX-RS in our private lives, we're asking for use of the acronym as part (or total) of a project name that will be trademarked (or licensed, etc) by Eclipse.
 
As such, this is not a matter of using JAX-RS itself, but its legal validity as part of another trademark. With the specific situation where the acronym DOES stand for a trademarked brand/name/project/etc.
 
As Mrinal said, things would be different if JAX-RS had no meaning, but the project name explicitly informs that it's the short form of a trademarked brand.
 
We'll still be able to call it just JAX-RS between ourselves, in slides, on courses, etc. But Eclipse won't be able to use it in a trademark.
 

Mariano Amar

 

Senior Consultant

email/hangouts: mariano.amar@xxxxxxxxxx
skype: marianoamar
 

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On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 7:49 AM, Mrinal Kanti <mrinal.kanti@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I *think* that's because of the manner in which the trademark of Java was explicitly used to describe the acronym JAX-RS since the beginning. Had JAX-RS been described as an random choice of characters in the name, we might not be faced with this unpleasant circumstance today. Almost the entire world of _javascript_ libraries would have collapsed if Oracle went out to sue the authors for using the abbreviated form of _javascript_ in their library names if they claimed that the JS part of the name stands for _javascript_ or if the law was so clear on usage of abbreviations of trademarks. Instead, we see trademarks like RequireJS (at-least in the US) filed under the same section as _javascript_.
 
On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Anyways, this discussion seems to be fruitless. Neither does Oracle seem to be willing to *officially* explain why we MUST NOT use the sole abbreviation "JAX-RS" even in case it is not officially claimed to be a trademark itself (*single-letter-references* to trademarks cannot be forbidden in Europe; maybe they can in the USA, but then Oracle could simply be so friendly as to publicly cite the legal text or the original precedent they might refer to), nor does  the Eclipse Foundation seem to be willing to either ask Oracle for an official statement or to suite (an even promising) lawsuit just to reach legal certainty. Again, as no party is willing to explain the situation to the the community, this discussion seems to be fruitless. I personally now know what I wanted to know: Oracle is *not* giving JAX-RS to the community, they *just* give the API, TCK and RI *source code* of JAX-RS and Jersey to the Eclipse Foundation.

-Markus

 

 

From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mariano Amar
Sent: Mittwoch, 29. November 2017 19:26
To: EE4J community discussions


Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals

 

 

I'm going to guess that the trademark issue is not with the acronym (JAX-RS) but with the full name of the project (JavaTM API for XML-based RESTful Web Services), where the Java trademark is figured.

As such, the J in JAX-RS is a direct reference to Oracle's trademark, and a violation of the guidelines.

 

That would also explain why they could approve for the new prject to be called "Eclipse Project for JAX-RS"

 

Mariano Amar

Senior Consultant

email/hangouts: mariano.amar@xxxxxxxxxx
skype: marianoamar

AVISO DE CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE CORREO ELECTRÃNICO

Esta comunicaciÃn contiene informaciÃn que es confidencial y tambiÃn puede contener informaciÃn privilegiada. Es para uso exclusivo del destinatario. Si usted no es el destinatario tenga en cuenta que cualquier distribuciÃn, copia o uso de esta comunicaciÃn o la informaciÃn que contiene està estrictamente prohibida. Si usted ha recibido esta comunicaciÃn por error por favor notifÃquelo por correo electrÃnico(info@xxxxxxxxxx) o por telÃfono (+54 11 3249 7503)

This communication contains information that is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the recipient. If you are not the intended note that any distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information it contains is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error please notify us by email(info@xxxxxxxxxx) or phone (+54 11 3249 7503)

 

 

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Kevin, I asked about using the name "JAX-RS" and his answer was "â the Third Party Usage Guidelines for Oracle Trademarks.". If he wouldn't say that JAX-RS is an Oracle trademark, why did he refer to that?

-Markus

 

From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kevin Sutter
Sent: Dienstag, 28. November 2017 23:58
To: EE4J community discussions
Cc: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx


Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals

 

Sorry, Markus, but I just re-read this string of notes and I don't see where anybody is claiming JAX-RS is an Oracle Trademark...  Bill indicated that the use of JAX-RS as in "Eclipse Project for JAX-RS" conforms to the Oracle guidelines, but he didn't claim that it was trademarked.

In any case, all of the spec-related project proposals were renamed to be "Eclipse Project for xxx API".  You can find the complete list of pending project proposals here:
https://projects.eclipse.org/proposals/

---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Java EE architect+
e-mail:  sutter@xxxxxxxxxx     Twitter:  @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)    
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter



From:        "Markus KARG" <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:        "'Bill Shannon'" <bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx>, "'EE4J community discussions'" <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:        11/28/2017 04:39 PM
Subject:        Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals
Sent by:        ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx





Sorry if this is annoying to you, but I did not find any proof that the abbreviation "JAX-RS" is an Oracle Trademark. Do you have a link to a public document that proofs this claim?
-Markus
 
From: Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Montag, 27. November 2017 23:25
To: EE4J community discussions; Markus KARG
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals

 
This has been discussed endlessly.  See the Third Party Usage Guidelines for Oracle Trademarks.  No, that's not going to change.

The API project will be named "Eclipse Project for JAX-RS".  The TCK will be included as another repository under that project, once the community does the work to separate it from the CTS.  The RI project will be named "Eclipse Jersey".

Markus KARG wrote on 11/23/17 09:05 AM:
Actually I do not understand why the API project is not simply named "JAX-RS API", the TCK project "JAX-RS TCK" and the RI simply "Jersey"?
 
From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Shannon
Sent: Dienstag, 21. November 2017 21:40
To: EE4J community discussions; Sebastian Daschner
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals

 
Where we already have separate projects for the specifications (APIs) and the implementation, they'll remain separate at the Eclipse Foundation.  For example, "Eclipse WebSocket API for Java" is the API specification project and "Eclipse Tyrus" is the implementation project.

In some cases, such as Eclipse JSON Processing, the existing project contains both the API classes and the implementation classes.  After the initial project is established at Eclipse, the EE4J community can choose to do the work to split that project into two projects if desired.

We've decided to rename the specification projects from (e.g.) "Eclipse RESTful Web Services API for Java" to "Eclipse Project for JAX-RS".  That should make it clear what the intent of the project is, while conforming to Oracle trademark guidelines.

Yes, the JAX-RS JSR reference is wrong; we'll fix that.

Sebastian Daschner wrote on 11/21/17 10:51 AM:
Hi there,

It's great to see some progress. However, there are a few things in that announcement that puzzle me. Apologies upfront for any stupid questions, I'm just trying to make sense out of it.

First of all, these project proposals seem to throw both specifications and RIs into one pot. I guess it makes sense to create Eclipse projects for implementations such as Tyrus or Jersey. Are the specifications also planned to be incorporated as Eclipse projects? Or will there be standardization processes, what the JSRs with EGs are today? Especially in regard to the overall platform, which JSR 366 is today. I'm not familiar with what is planned to be the substitute for JSRs & EGs, but maybe it makes sense for the Java EE community to see some suggestion there first.

Do the specifications need to adopt the name Eclipse? In the EE4J FAQ #7 it says that the intention is to continue to use the former JCP specification names, such as 'Java API for RESTful Web Services'. I know that names are what people get religious about, but still I believe that we should not choose some names for specifications before the name for what will succeed Java EE (e.g. Open EE) is carved into stone. IMO 'Eclipse RESTful Web Services API for Java' is a bad substitute for JAX-RS.

I only checked the Eclipse analog for the JAX-RS so far, but that refers to JSR 339, which is JAX-RS 2.0, not JSR 370. Since EE4J should be aligned with EE 8, shouldn't that refer to the current specification?

Cheers,
Sebastian
(JSR 370, 374, 382)
 
On 11/21/2017 05:33 PM, Mike Milinkovich wrote:
All,

I would like to draw your attention to fact that nine new EE4J project proposals were recently posted on the Eclipse Foundation's proposal page. This is the first step to making the migration of Java EE to the Eclipse Foundation a reality.

The list of proposals is below. There are more details on the proposal page, or on my blog post.

Thanks!
Eclipse Tyrus
Eclipse OpenMQ
Eclipse Grizzly
Eclipse Jersey
Eclipse RESTful Web Services API for Java
Eclipse Message Service API for Java
Eclipse WebSocket API for Java
Eclipse Mojarra
Eclipse JSON Processing
--
Mike Milinkovich
mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(m) +1.613.220.3223




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