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Re: [ee4j-community] Time to play the game?
The people start to abuse about Spring and Spring Boot, and instead of use as framework that you can add or remove (better remove in my opinion) it is used as an necessary platform to build application. Jigsaw offers the good point of view to bring back the awareness about the JRE and, now the EE4J.

About Docker, it is the same "monkey fashion", or developer understand what they are using or act like the monkey / donkey to cut and paste and follow the current fashion. However, to clarify, Jigsaw give to users the understanding to remove the unnecessary external libraries and create your modules / applications as "pure" Java. EE4J start to give the missing functionalities and tools which allow to Spring to get the predominant position.

For Docker, you can use or not use, depends about your requirements / context and development environment. I don't use for myself but I use in the business.

Thanks

Doct. Giorgio Desideri

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2017-11-03 19:34 GMT+07:00 Rodolfo Fortes <rfortes@xxxxxxxxx>:
    Well, I guess that there isn't such thing like "fight back", I fight back enemys and I don't see this frameworks as it. Every framework has it uses, for a start-up I think this technologies could fit (Spring Boot), we can learn from their advacements and even incoporate it if it proves to be something that worth it (no shame on that).
    Docker it's something complementary I can still use it with my Java EE apps, doesn't see why not, It save some time to a new developer set-up a environment and it's more easy to control this environmen across all devs.
    And Jigsaw is here to stay, It's part of Java now, and in my point of view, a necessary one, I will use only the parts that suits my needs, I don't see how it could be a bad thing.

    But you have a point when you said " A lot of people seem to not understand JavaEE", here is where we can do something, we can teach and show the learn path for this awsome tool that is Java EE. I really didn't have someone to teach me so my path to learn it was a little bit rough, what has helped me along the way was the Java EE Tutorial and it's examples, I would like to say a big thank you for everyone involved in the Java EE Tutorial, I guess I wouldn't love Java EE like I do now and I don't know if I would have a job if weren't for you.
    That's it, we have a awsome and powerful tool, let's spread the good news.

On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Mihai A. <amihaiemil@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello All,

I wanted to ask you how is JavaEE going to fight back to Spring and project Jigsaw?

Let me explain: 

These days, I noticed an increasing trend of developing Java (web)apps with Spring + Spring Boot, and running them with Docker. A lot of people seem to not understand JavaEE, they cannot use it properly so, naturally, they prefer to have a fat deployable and use Docker just as a simple OS wrap.

Then here comes project Jigsaw which, it seems to me, is an effort made in the complete opposite direction of JavaEE. I read this article that kept showing on my Twitter feed: 


Basically, with Jigsaw, we can create standalone Java apps which do not need a preset runtime anymore. It encourages developers to follow the monoliths path, building even fatter apps. Because hey, nobody wants to take care of setting the JRE. But they will still play Docker just to spin the app. Do you see the irony?

I cannot understand why more and more developers build fat applications and use Docker only as an OS bubble. Why don't they use Docker for what it was meant, for setting an environment, a platform (JavaEE) and keeping their applications lightweight?

These days, the developer, instead of focusing on lightweight, efficient projects, is burdened with having to know everything: the app couples together (tightly!) concepts such as Spring Boot, Jigsaw, Docker. Everyone is still happy, they enjoy it, not thinking that we are throwing away many years of progress.

Any thoughts on this topic? It's a rather grim view, I know, but I am really curious of what the experts believe. 

Best regards,
Mihai Andronache

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