|RE: [eclipse.org-architecture-council] Eclipse 4.0 (was Eclipse ProjectAnnouncement and Project Review Schedule)|
Doug, I *know* that we're all trying to do the right thing here. Really. I also know that we *all* believe that the level of communication and community participation that we are striving for in this is orders of magnitude more than what you have seen from the platform team in the past. So, like everyone who is learning a new way to work, what we absolutely need from the community is positive re-inforcement when we get things right, and *gentle* <g> chastisement when we mess up. Your message below is perfect, in fact, since it simply points out that the way e4 has been talked about so far has confused things more than it has helped. I'll make another attempt at clearing that up in a sec (and I'm sure you'll tell me if I fail), but I want to make one other point first. I care deeply about Eclipse. I have been fighting for its success since day zero. When I look at Eclipse.org today, I am truly humbled by the sheer magnitude of the successes we (all) have built, and I really do GET IT that it is the community that has generated that success. So I'm going to be completely open here: I am _royally_pissed_ that something so critical to all our successes (i.e. the Eclipse SDK) is being built by a very small team, most of whom come from one company. There are exactly two things that I believe are threatening the continued success of Eclipse right now: - lack of a diverse, growing committer community on the SDK - a codebase that is so constrained by history that it can't respond to a rapidly changing computing environment Addressing those two things is *exactly* why the e4 effort was started. No hidden agendas. No extra direction from IBM to solve some new business problem. Nothing else. So what it all comes down to is this: If someone sees us doing something that doesn't look like it matches one of those goals, absolutely speak up! But, for God's sake, give us the benefit of a doubt. We will make mistakes, but they will be honest ones. For my part, I personally commit to making e4 be the kind of community driven project we all want. Anyway, I've ranted enough -- let me get back to your post... The only code that exists that is related to e4, is a couple of cool(ish) demos (neither of which is called "e4") that we built to help us figure out whether some ideas we had about new directions were valuable or not -- As Steve says, "We think with our fingers". I'd been planning to show that code at EclipseCON, because I also believe that demos speak louder than powerpoint, but we really only had them in publishable shape in the last couple of weeks. In retrospect, what we should have done was just dump them in some existing place in CVS and be done with it, but we thought that making them more visible was important. The idea was that by building a separate component for them, they would both be easy to find and, when we did get the e4 effort rolling, they would be easy to move to another home (assuming that made sense). Obviously, we misjudged the implications of the proposal that went out. If I had know that it was going to have the impact that it did I would have spent more time wordsmithing it when Steve showed it to me. I apologize for the confusion that it caused. [Heck, when I went back and re-read it, *I* thought it was bogus.] I do believe that there will need to be a *new* shared area to work, once e4 actually starts to happen. My current theory is that the best place for that would be as a new incubator project unto itself, under the Eclipse Project, with the initial committer list being *everyone* who wants to get involved. I've started putting together a proposal for the creation of such a project, but in any case, that's not going to happen until after EclipseCON and I'm happy to discuss other suggestions. McQ. "Schaefer, Doug" <Doug.Schaefer@wi ndriver.com> To Sent by: "eclipse.org-architecture-council" eclipse.org-archi <eclipse.org-architecture-council@e tecture-council-b clipse.org> ounces@xxxxxxxxxx cc g Subject RE: 03/06/08 21:12 [eclipse.org-architecture-council] Eclipse 4.0 (was Eclipse ProjectAnnouncement and Project Please respond to Review Schedule) "eclipse.org-arch itecture-council" <eclipse.org-arch itecture-council@ eclipse.org> Thanks, Jochen. Communication about this is critical. Unfortunately you even started this e-mail by calling "e4" the next version of the Eclipse platform and I'm still stuck that "e4" is the prototype you are proposing. I'm sure we all have different visions of what the next major version of Eclipse needs to be and I look forward to participating in the process that ensures as many of those needs are met as possible. Doug S. -----Original Message----- From: eclipse.org-architecture-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:eclipse.org-architecture-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jochen Krause Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 8:19 PM To: eclipse.org-architecture-council; eclipse.org-board; Mike Wilson; Steve Northover Subject: [eclipse.org-architecture-council] Eclipse 4.0 (was Eclipse ProjectAnnouncement and Project Review Schedule) Dear Board and Architecture Council members, I would like to clarify the situation around "e4", the next version of the Eclipse platform, as there is a discussion going on about an "e4" incubator project component. There has been a presentation to the Eclipse board about moving the Eclipse platform to a new level for Eclipse 4.0 in December 2007. Defining the scope of Eclipse 4.0 has also been one of the Eclipse 3.4 plan item. The platform team has recently requested to create a new component within the Eclipse incubator project to make their technology evaluations available to the community. This has been perceived as a "decision" about the next version of the platform by some readers - and the wording of the component proposal can easily be interpreted this way. But this is not at all the intention of this component. The component is just about sharing code. The Eclipse platform and the RAP team have met to see if they could work together on e4. We saw our meeting as a part of the "pre-proposal-phase" of a new project. We have planned to join forces and will announce shortly a proposal for an e4 incubator project, following the Eclipse guidelines and process. The process has been established to make projects transparent and help to engage with the community. And we are serious about it: Everybody is welcome to join, collaborate, comment or critizise! There is a lot of work to do. We think that we need to innovate in many areas to retain a leadership position for Eclipse, and your know how is welcome. EclipseCon will be a great opportunity to meet and discuss. It is really good news that some of the processes that many of us perceive as a burden most of the time have a value. Receiving comments and concerns about something that is only planned shows that our processes apply to reality and that the Eclipse community is very vital. Jochen -----Original Message----- From: eclipse.org-architecture-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:eclipse.org-architecture-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Schaefer, Doug Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 8:40 PM To: eclipse.org-planning-council Cc: eclipse.org-architecture-council Subject: [eclipse.org-architecture-council] RE: Eclipse ProjectAnnouncementandProject Review Schedule You're right, the planning council list may not be the best place, certainly all the councils and the board itself need to be interested in this. For the Arch council members, please check full e-mail thread on the archives page started by Doug Gaff: http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-planning-council/mailli st.html Getting back to the "Component" description: "The result was the design of a new platform "e4", which will be the basis for Eclipse 4.0." By new platform, did you mean fork? My fear is that this is a likely scenario, which would make the issues Doug Gaff brought up originally even more important. If we're going to have two platforms, we'd better have the processes in place to ensure they get the resourcing necessary to keep them both alive. Doug Schaefer. -----Original Message----- From: eclipse.org-planning-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:eclipse.org-planning-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Boris Bokowski Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:11 PM To: eclipse.org-planning-council@xxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [eclipse.org-planning-council] RE:[eclipse.org-membership-at-large] Eclipse Project AnnouncementandProject Review Schedule Whoa. I expected a flamewar on planeteclipse, but not here. Doug Gaff wrote: > What is frustrating me about this project proposal You misread the announcement e-mail. It is not a project proposal, merely a new *component* in the existing Eclipse Incubator project. I admit that one can easily be confused with the other. We realized (admittedly, very late) that nobody from the SWT team had commit rights in the existing Eclipse Incubator project. Creating a new component in that Incubator project was the fastest way to create a home for experimental code that we will be demoing at EclipseCon, with write access to everybody who has been involved so far - people at IBM, Innoopract, and Code 9. The key words are "so far" - our hope is to find more people and companies who would like to work with us on e4. Could we continue this discussion in a more open forum? The Planning Council mailing list is not open to everybody; I had to ask nicely to be added as a subscriber. For example, could a new mailing list be created, e.g. eclipse-incubator-e4-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx? (I believe we asked for this as part of the component creation process already.) Boris -- Boris Bokowski Eclipse Platform UI committer IBM Rational Software, Ottawa Lab _______________________________________________ eclipse.org-planning-council mailing list eclipse.org-planning-council@xxxxxxxxxxx https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/eclipse.org-planning-council _______________________________________________ eclipse.org-architecture-council mailing list eclipse.org-architecture-council@xxxxxxxxxxx https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/eclipse.org-architecture-counci l _______________________________________________ eclipse.org-architecture-council mailing list eclipse.org-architecture-council@xxxxxxxxxxx https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/eclipse.org-architecture-counci l IMPORTANT: Membership in this list is generated by processes internal to the Eclipse Foundation. 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