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Re: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/R SE

Doug,

 

Android is Java based, and I suspect the developers at Google will show up with something polished that works.  It isn’t hard to imagine an Eclipse EPP for Java/Android.

 

I am hoping for Eclipse/CDT/Embedded support for the C/C++ embedded Linux developers who need a capable open source GUI debugger to be productive on embedded development boards.

 

I am not really thinking of the people working on cell phones and other environments where there is plenty of big corporate money for tools and support staff.  I am thinking of the thousands of small development teams around the world making low volume products where Eclipse is a perfect fit if it is free and can be up and running in a day or two, without Eclipse newbies having to spend days or weeks scavenging for crucial but non-obvious getting started information.

 

It is challenging because there are so many host, target, and toolchain permutations, but a generic Eclipse Embedded distribution, a good general purpose Howto that assumes no prior Eclipse experience, and an Eclipse Embedded web site where developers and silicon manufacturers can congregate might really be useful.

 

I mention silicon manufacturers, because to move their products out of the warehouse, they have incentive to contribute Eclipse Embedded Howto information for their CPUs and development boards, for all permutations of interest to their customers, without requiring their customers to spend tens of thousands of dollars per year for commercial Eclipse support or requiring their customers to figure it all out themselves.

 

With a low volume embedded product, a $6 dollar ARM9 chip quickly becomes a $50 part if I can’t get Eclipse Embedded up and running quickly and without licensing expense.  So the silicon vendor has incentive to contribute platform specific information to the Eclipse Embedded web site to lower cost barriers for their potential customers.

 

Thanks.

 

Jim


----- Original Message ----
From: Doug Schaefer <DSchaefer@xxxxxxx>
To: General discussion of device software development platform issues. <dsdp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:46:52 PM
Subject: RE: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/R SE

Absolutely. I’m just going to check on what the process is if we decide to put this together.

 

Focusing on a common workflow that a lot of people are doing in a non-commercial setting definitely would be a great place to start - the example you mentioned in particular, seeing what’s going on over at Android…

 

Doug Schaefer,

Eclipse CDT Project Lead

http://cdtdoug.blogspot.com


From: dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Oberhuber, Martin
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 3:38 PM
To: General discussion of device software development platform issues.
Subject: RE: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/R SE

 

Hi Doug's,

 

I'd propose that before proposing an "Embedded" package to EPP, we should

have a good understanding ourselves of what such a package should look like.

 

What are the plugins that are specifically relevant for the embedded developer?

What's needed to get going when working embedded? I think that these are

some questions we ought to understand better in the DSDP space than in

the EPP space.

 

I haven't analyzed this in detail, but my feeling is that there are at least some

components which are extremely helpful for an embedded developer, but which

are not hosted at the Eclipse Foundation. Some examples?

Or what would you folks think make up a good "Embedded CDT" package?

Let's focus on Embedded CDT here for a start, knowing that Embedded

Java is something different.... my personal feeling is that consumers

are better off with a good FAQ / Readme etc on how to properly consume

the current EPP package(s), the Europa / Ganymede site(s) and Eclipse

Plug-In Central.

 

And, hopefully P2 will make it easier in the future to get everythign

provisioned automatically... just imagine dependencies from any number

of sites / plugin-repositories resolved fast and automatically just like

in Debian Linux apt-get...

 

But perhaps it would make sense to focus on (a) specific user group,

perhaps picking a toolchain for a simulator to start. TmL / QEMU

might be a nice target to start with. Targeting hobbyists / students

to get started with embedded development. Having a talk with

a Product Marketing person could also help here...

Cheers,
--
Martin Oberhuber
Wind River Systems, Inc.
Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member
http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm

 

 


From: dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gaff, Doug
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 9:13 PM
To: General discussion of device software development platform issues.
Subject: RE: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/R SE

Doug, do you know how we can get this going in EPP?  I’m not very familiar with the project.

 

Doug G

 

From: dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:59 PM
To: General discussion of device software development platform issues.
Subject: RE: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/R SE

 

Yes, I think an EPP package like an “Eclipse IDE for Embedded” would be an excellent idea. This would be a great way for people who are hacking around on their own with open source runtimes to get an instant setup for Eclipse.

 

The question will be what runtimes to provide support for and what plug-ins to include. And, as with the “Eclipse IDE for C/C++” that we have in Europa, after you download it, you still need to have a compiler, debugger, and other necessary tools from other sources to do the grunt work. So it’s not truly an IDE, or at least not a complete one.

 

Something we should think about, though.

 

Doug Schaefer, QNX Software Systems
Eclipse CDT Project Lead, http://cdtdoug.blogspot.com


From: dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Oberhuber, Martin
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:47 PM
To: General discussion of device software development platform issues.
Subject: RE: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/RSE

 

Hi Jim,

 

The "combined downloads" you meantion for CDT are created by the Eclipse
Packaging Project (EPP). They kind of hand-pick the most widely requested

combinations to create starting packages. But that approach does not scale

when people want more tuned collections of packages.

 

Yes, commercial vendors like Wind River and QNX make their pick of plugins

and deliver an integrated environment. We cannot do that in open source

because we don't know what exactly our clients need. That's where the

Update Manager / Eclipse Discovery Site mechanism tunes in, which is used

for Europa and Ganymede.

 

Start with the EPP CDT Package Download, then Help > SOftware Updates

> Find and Install > Europa Discovery Site. Select what you think you need,

then "Select Required" to get all dependencies. Very much like the Linux

packagers (like Yast, APT and the like).

 

More plugins can be acquired from Eclipse Plugin Central (EPC).

 

It currently doesn't go much simpler, though improvements to the update

manager are underway as part of P2 (Provisioning Project, currently part

of the Equinox incubator).

 

In terms of getting started and delivering your favorite pick of plugins --

I suggest that you just install Eclipse locally, use Update Manager to

get what you need, then ZIP up the entire local installation; inside the

ZIP archive, remove the "configuration/" folder except for the file

config.ini


What you get is exactly a combined package of all the plugins you

downloaded, ready to deliver to your colleagues.

 

Does that help?

 

Is that the kind of information you'd like to see in an FAQ?

Cheers,
--
Martin Oberhuber
Wind River Systems, Inc.
Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member
http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm

 

 


From: dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Thomas
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 6:27 PM
To: General discussion of device software development platform issues.
Subject: Re: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/RSE

Hello Martin,

 

You will have to pardon me for being a rookie when it comes to Eclipse. I am just getting started with it.

 

I see what you mean about Europa and Ganymede providing checkpoints that nail down version integrity.

 

I suppose what I was hoping for was a merged up download including DSDP and RSE like Eclipse/CDT at:

 

 

I see now that with so many plugins, it isn't necessarily practical to anticipate some universally desired combination, and mechanisms exist for users to add plugins as wanted.

 

I imagine vendors such as Wind River and QNX who use Eclipse/CDT in commercial offerings will end up assembling the kind of package I envision, streamlined for embedded developers.  It would be nice if we had a free, generic package that does the same, but that might be hard to do since it might assume a particular target architecture or development board type and toolchain.

 

I see that as an alternative to using the Eclipse hosted Software Updates mechanism to install the DSDP and RSE plugins, there is also a way to download ZIP files and (presumably) do a manual install.  That approach might give me the version integrity I seek, between annual releases such as Europa and Ganymede.  My objective is to have only a small set of tested files, and a minimal installation procedure, that our embedded developers can use to bring up identical Eclipse development platforms.

 

The missing piece may be a simple 'getting started' guide that helps the Eclipse novice get Eclipse/CDT, DSDP, and RSE up and running without so much web searching to learn what those projects are, how they all tie together, and the best way to assemble them (which I don't think I know yet).  I suspect each novice re-invents this wheel..

 

That 'getting started' guide may already exist, and I just haven't come across it yet.  I would think this rises to the level of an article at IBM developerworks, O'Reilly, or one of the monthly Linux print magazines.

 

In any event, Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/RSE looks great, and if the price of admission is a few days of web searching to figure it all out, it is still well worth it.

 

Thanks.

 

Jim

----- Original Message ----
From: "Oberhuber, Martin" <Martin.Oberhuber@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: General discussion of device software development platform issues. <dsdp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 3:50:28 AM
Subject: RE: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/RSE

Hello Jim,

 

The Eclipse "Europa" and "Ganymede" coordinated release trains

seem to do what you want - simultaneous releases with version

integrity:

 

http://www.eclipse.org/projects/ganymede.php

 

You don't get a single tarball, but you can get Eclipse Platform

and then grab all the other projects from the Ganymede Update

Site in a single step.

 

Besides, I'm not sure what you mean with a "DSDP" project?

Cheers,
--
Martin Oberhuber
Wind River Systems, Inc.
Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member
http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm

 

 


From: dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:35 PM
To: dsdp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [dsdp-dev] Single distribution tarball for Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/RSE

Hello,

 

I recently experimented with using Eclipse/CDT plus DSDP and RSE to cross-compile and cross-debug from an x86 host running Fedora Core to an ARM9 embedded target.

 

It works great, and I would like to consider using this combination in a production environment.  But installing the several plugins from CVS and carrying the plugins around as part of my project gives me pause.

 

Are there plans to roll up official versions of Eclipse, CDT, DSDP, and RSE, and release them as a single, convenient distribution, like Eclipse/CDT?

 

If I could save that single distribution tarball and install it at will, with guaranteed version integrity, Eclipse/CDT/DSDP/RSE is rather compelling.

 

Thanks.

 

Jim

 

 


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