I've opened a bug. We can move this part of the discussion there.
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=412990
Wayne
On 07/15/2013 11:56 AM, Doug Schaefer
wrote:
??? Given I started the thread, the topic is how to make
Eclipse not look so dead and not hated so much. Having a web
presence for the IDE is on topic since it's a place where we can
diffuse those things.
D
Are you scolding me for
going off topic?
While not directly related to the technical discussion at
hand, I believe that this is directly connected to the
underlying perception issue.
I am happy to move this to a new thread.
Wayne
On 07/15/2013 11:37 AM, Pascal
Rapicault wrote:
Being away when this conversation
started, could you clarify how such a page would
help with addressing the issues originally mentioned
in this thread?
Off the top of my head, the
list of languages the Eclipse IDE supports. The
list of common features. The list of other IDE add
on features such as team and application life
cycle support.
Plus the regulars like
pointer to downloads, how to contribute, etc.
Doug
and I had a very short exchange on Twitter regarding
the need for an "Eclipse IDE" page that targets end
users specifically. In my mind, this is directly
related to the packages.
Currently the closest thing that we have to anything
like this is the downloads page.
What would an "Eclipse IDE" page contain?
Wayne
On 07/15/2013 09:59 AM, Andrew
Ross wrote:
+1 to code sprints (aka. hackathons) and what
Andrew is saying here.
Face to face events, and especially code sprints
are a great way to make human connections and
build trust in the community. It is so easy to
overlook how crucial this is for newcomers.
Bringing them into the community is battling
against a very easy choice to simply walk away.
Tools and process have to be "just right" to
balance properly. But you can have amazing tools
and if people just aren't inspired, or if people
inadvertently get turned off by lack of
engagement even awesome tools won't fix that. A
buffer of trust built by face to face contact
can help a lot to forgive inevitable
misunderstandings, delays, PITA's, and other
issues that crop up.
On 13/07/13 18:06, Andrew Eisenberg wrote:
I'm not
saying this is THE answer or anything,
but it may be a small step towards
getting more contributors and outside
participation.
We've been
holding hackathons instead of demo camps
for the past couple of years and they've
been well attended (20-30 people) and at
the end of the evening we have had 4-5
patches that are good enough that with a
little polish can be contributed to the
code base. Granted, we haven't had any
long term contributors or committers
come out of this, but at least it is
introducing newcomers to open source and
the Eclipse community. I've generally
found the experience more rewarding that
the demo camps.
It's still a
bunch of work for the project leads:
making sure the getting started docs are
up to date, and finding/creating a bunch
of bugs suitable for newcomers, etc. But
this is something that is a lot of work up
front and then it pays off over the long
run.
This is not a
way to get people to fix the hard bugs, and
it's not really a way to save work for
project members (since any bug that a
newcomer can fix in an evening is something
that a project member can fix in a couple of
hours). What this really does is bring life
into the community and make it seem like
Eclipse is not "dead". And maybe over time,
if enough hackathons are held, this is a way
to slowly turn people into committers.
regards,
Andrew
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at
1:15 PM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
I think we can do
that. Let's take that conversation to
the cdt-dev list.
From:
Aleksandar Kurtakov
Sent:
Saturday, July 13, 2013
2:35 AM
Reply
To: Cross project
issues
Subject:
Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev]
FW: [Doug on the Eclipse
CDT] New comment on
"Eclipse smells kind of
dead"???.
|
-----
Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Schaefer" <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
> To: "Cross project issues"
<cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013
10:19:55 PM
> Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW:
[Doug on the Eclipse CDT] New
comment on "Eclipse smells kind of
> dead"???.
>
> Thanks Aleks, that's the kind
of thing I'm looking for. It's
these little
> ideas that could help get new
people involved in Eclipse. We can
probably
> think of a lot of little
projects for people to work on.
>
> Mind you, it needs someone or
a small group to nurture.
Hi Doug,
My team would be more than happy
to join and help such initiative -
via reviews, help newcomers,
advertise it, with one existing
CDT committer even push. This
would be a radical change in my
eyes for how Eclipse projects work
- there will be changes for the
sake of the change itself and
getting someone involved even if
not immediately benefitting. As I
don't think Platform would jump on
such approach (at least not now)
and for such an experiment to be
viable a high profile project is
needed. CDT is perfect for this in
my eyes. What do you think? Will
CDT devs welcome such a try? Can
someone from CDT mark "easy hack"
bugs somehow (keyword?) or open
such bugs so there is smth to
start with?
I know it may sound like pushing
but this issue comes and goes
periodically and it dies in
discussing so a try-and-error
approach is probably better. Even
if nothing is gained all that can
be lost is some amount of our
precious time which is better use
of it than just discussing.
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team
>
> As for the current discussion
on what WONTFIX means. That
doesn't really
> matter much. The issue is
that problems that many users seem
to really
> care about, enough to post on
some hate forum (or communicate to
me
> directly if you need proof
they are real), aren't getting
fixed.
>
> Doug.
>
> On 13-07-12 1:55 PM,
"Aleksandar Kurtakov" <akurtako@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message
-----
> >> From: "Doug
Schaefer" <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
> >> To: "Cross project
issues" <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Friday, July
12, 2013 7:57:28 PM
> >> Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW:
[Doug on the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New comment on
"Eclipse smells kind of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >> I'm sure your powers
that be will tell you we've all
been trying that
> >>for
> >> years. Eclipse
doesn't suck enough for that to
work, which is a good
> >>thing
> >> in a way. That's why
I hope we can aim at the
grassroots people,
> >>individual
> >> users, who have the
skills to help.
> >
> >Exactly. But this people
are attracted by being able to use
the thing
> >they have seen being
advertized, being teached in
university, read about
> >in latest news site, etc.
> >Eclipse projects usually
don't satisfy any of these. Look
at LibreOffice
> >there is a lot to be
learned from that community.
Especially their
> >EasyHack initiative. They
let people work on modernizing the
codebase for
> >the sake of more people
getting familiar with the
codebase. It might not
> >buy the project anything
immediately but once jumped in
there is some
> >percentage of people that
stay for a bit bigger tasks and a
number of
> >them become important
contributors.
> >If e.g. you make it
public that for CDT things like
the following are
> >acceptable:
> >* use try_with_resources
> >* use the java 7
exception ease of use
> >* string in switch
> >* foreach, etc.
> >
> >And these patches get
accepted easily. Some of them
might be willing to
> >even try harder tasks
like "port CDT to use
org.eclipse.ui.console".
> >This is a guess of course
but it seems to have worked well
for
> >LibreOffice.
> >
> >Alexander Kurtakov
> >
> >>
> >> Doug.
> >>
> >> From: Denis Roy <
denis.roy@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Reply-To: Cross
project issues <
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Date: Friday, 12
July, 2013 6:50 PM
> >> To: "
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx " <
> >>
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW:
[Doug on the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New
> >> comment on "Eclipse
smells kind of dead"???.
> >>
> >> On 07/12/2013 12:25
PM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It is. And I'm sure
there are hate sites for every
tool people use.
> >>Eclipse
> >> isn't unique that
way.
> >>
> >> My point is that
user experience is so important to
our success, we
> >>need to
> >> be sensitive to the
issues our users are facing. There
are a lot of such
> >> issues marked
WONTFIX, and CDT is as guilty of
that as anyone. I'm just
> >> wondering how we fix
it.
> >>
> >> As a committer, I'd
be selling the community needs to
BigCorp
> >>management. If
> >> BigCorp's products
are built on Eclipse, and Eclipse
comes to have the
> >> reputation of
"suck", then BigCorp's products
will inherit that. Since
> >>the
> >> users of today are
the managers of tomorrow, these
managers won't
> >>purchase
> >> products that are
based on "suck".
> >>
> >> I'll do my part
here: I think the
eclipse.org website
(including the
> >>Bugzilla
> >> UI) is starting to
suck, and I've already begun
selling the idea to the
> >> powers that be. Not
that they need much convincing :)
> >>
> >> D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Doug.
> >>
> >> From: Denis Roy <
denis.roy@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Reply-To: Cross
project issues <
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Date: Friday, 12
July, 2013 5:54 PM
> >> To: "
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx " <
> >>
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW:
[Doug on the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New
> >> comment on "Eclipse
smells kind of dead"???.
> >>
> >> Actually, I think it
is awesome feedback, since there
are only a
> >>handful of
> >> issues that seem to
raise the anger levels.
> >>
> >> I was able to trace
a few of the top items to some old
bugs:
> >>
> >> File out of sync:
> >>
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=228039
> >>
> >> Line numbers on by
default:
> >>
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=191154
> >>
> >>
> >> Those bugs are
fairly old and both are closed
WONTFIX. It would be
> >> interesting if they
could be reopened for discussion.
> >>
> >> Denis
> >>
> >>
> >> On 07/12/2013 11:31
AM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
http://www.ihateeclipse.com
???
> >>
> >> Pretty awesome
feedback from our passionate user
base.
> >>
> >> :D
> >>
> >> From: "
cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx " <
cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx >
> >> Date: Friday, 12
July, 2013 5:29 PM
> >> To: Doug Schaefer
<
dschaefer@xxxxxxx >
> >> Subject: Fw: [Doug
on the Eclipse CDT] New comment on
"Eclipse smells
> >>kind of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Alex Lagarde
> >> Sent: Friday, July
12, 2013 11:25 AM
> >> To:
cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [Doug on
the Eclipse CDT] New comment on
"Eclipse smells kind
> >>of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >> Alex Lagarde has
left a new comment on your post "
"Eclipse smells kind
> >>of
> >> dead"??? ":
> >>
> >> Interesting post.
Maybe even worst than bugzillas
that get no answer are
> >> general complaints
about Eclipse/Projects that never
were raised as
> >>issues.
> >> That's why this
Website, as painfull as it is,
provides very interesting
> >> feedback
http://www.ihateeclipse.com/
> >>
> >> We may have to think
about a better way for end-user to
raise such
> >>"feelings"
> >> (maybe an
amazon-like rating system which
would allow to very quickly
> >>rate
> >> from 0 to 5 stars a
feature or a project).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Posted by Alex
Lagarde to Doug on the Eclipse CDT
at 4:25 PM GMT+1
> >>
> >>
_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxhttps://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
|
