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RE: [cross-project-issues-dev] Callisto experience take 2

+1 for Randy, Tyler, Nick, and Ed.


Doug G



From: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Smith, Randy D
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 2:53 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: RE: [cross-project-issues-dev] Callisto experience take 2


Bjorn, I think you’re OVERestimating the expertise of “someone with substantially more Eclipse experience than [Ed] think[s] we’re targeting”!


You appear to be thinking Ed is setting the least common denominator as the person with no Java experience wanting to “learn Eclipse” … there are plenty of those people… if you don’t believe that is part of our “customer base” just read eclipse.newcomer for a while (something I wish more of our experienced people would do!).


But let’s leave those people aside for the moment. Consider someone like me, who has been working on TPTP for almost a year, with a year or two of experience prior to that doing contracting/consulting work with a telecom vendor utilizing Eclipse for a large EJB-based element management system (all the while teaching college students computer science, with Java as the language of choice). What I *don’t* know about the Eclipse update manager, BIRT, refactoring, JVM diversity, application servers, web host mirroring, CVS (or any number of variants), CDT, automated gui recorders, platform distinctions, etc. ad infinitum is enormous.


*I* need this to work for the newbie, because outside my narrow area(s) of expertise, I *am* a newbie. I’m swamped by the same jargon (though with a bit more basis for resolution), the same disorientation when another project does the same thing slightly differently, etc.


What I hoped to get out of Callisto is to break down the barriers that have kept us from “eating our own dogfood” for far too long. I’d like TPTP to use CDT rather than M$VC, and I’d hope the rest of the Eclipse world would use TPTP rather than inventing “yet another test harness that doesn’t look like anyone else’s”. We’re using BIRT more, but are we there yet?


I could go on, but I see that (again) I’ve gone too long, and meanwhile Tyler has more succinctly made the point! J





From: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:34 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Callisto experience take 2


Thanks (psst, enter bugs, write them well, win some prizes - so far there are zero entries in the "greatbugs" contest so it should be easy to win).

And while I agree that we can make it easier to install/experience, I think this sentence in your email is the key point:

Just try walking through this and pretend you're not an expert and you'll run into many of the same problems. Or watch someone else try to use it.

What level of user are we targetting? I think we are targetting someone with substantially more Eclipse experience than you think we are targetting. The goal of Callisto is fairly simple: to simultaneously release ten projects. We are not trying (in the Callisto time frame) to make a single integrated product out of the projects. Such an integration is a great goal and perhaps the goal that we will adopt in the next integrated release, but (so far) it is not a goal for this effort.

This "what is our target user" is a good point to discuss - perhaps I am mistaken about the Callisto teams' goals...

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