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The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226265] Sun, 11 April 2004 08:39 Go to next message
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Hi guys

I have attached 2 picturs...
one of eclipse 2.1.3 and one 3.0M8+

So can anybody really say why the are so extremely agains the new lnf??
Please give me really good pointers.. not vague things..

Johan

P.S. sorry for the attachements was faster for me at this time ...

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Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226280 is a reply to message #226265] Sun, 11 April 2004 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: pascal.ibm.canada

It is the curve on the top right that people don't like...
But I guess they did not look at MSN Messenger, or even the office
suite. It's true they all look so native or no curvy .... ah ah ah :-)

PaScaL

Johan Compagner wrote:
> Hi guys
>
> I have attached 2 picturs...
> one of eclipse 2.1.3 and one 3.0M8+
>
> So can anybody really say why the are so extremely agains the new lnf??
> Please give me really good pointers.. not vague things..
>
> Johan
>
> P.S. sorry for the attachements was faster for me at this time ...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------
>
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226294 is a reply to message #226280] Sun, 11 April 2004 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Pascal Rapicault wrote:
> It is the curve on the top right that people don't like...
> But I guess they did not look at MSN Messenger, or even the office
> suite. It's true they all look so native or no curvy .... ah ah ah :-)
>
The funny thing is, I like the curve :-)
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226411 is a reply to message #226265] Sun, 11 April 2004 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
In article <c5bdv9$pfi$1@eclipse.org>, jcompagner@j-com.nl says...
> Hi guys
>
> I have attached 2 picturs...
> one of eclipse 2.1.3 and one 3.0M8+
>
> So can anybody really say why the are so extremely agains the new lnf??
> Please give me really good pointers.. not vague things..

Listen...

we've been over this before.

There are like a billion little things that all add up to a user
experience we don't like.

Not to mention, you've customized the heck out of your colors and such
to try and make them look closer so it's not as obvious.

Many folks have said "give us the list".

We say "give us what we had".

Development knows what they changed, and there are too many little
things to really know if we listed them all.

We just want what we had. It worked well. If people want changes, let
them be options.

That's all we're asking. Don't force-feed us changes we never asked for
or wanted.

That was the beauty of things like the "Randy Patch". It gave the choice
to people who wanted alternatives.

Don't make us write a patch just to get back what we had and liked.

-- Scott
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226444 is a reply to message #226411] Sun, 11 April 2004 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
> Not to mention, you've customized the heck out of your colors and such
> to try and make them look closer so it's not as obvious.

so???
That is just a theme...
So they have just add one theme to the list and you are happy??
Because i asked what is still wrong with that picture?
I haven't seen any definate answer yet..

So i am now absolutely agains having 2 brands. Waste of time for the developers.
Because you can see with the change of 4!!! color settings i have succeeded into
making it just look like the old one. So they should just add one extra theme
and they have the old lnf back..

> That was the beauty of things like the "Randy Patch". It gave the choice
> to people who wanted alternatives.

no really i have pushed and pushed the eclipse team to implement them into the base
because keeping it up to date was a very very tedious job (i did it for a long time
for every integration build i wanted to use..)

one by one they did give us all the features we had in the patch now with the new
lnf everything is there i believe.. So i am very very happy with it that i don't have
to patch eclipse anymore.

johan
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226487 is a reply to message #226411] Sun, 11 April 2004 13:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: manahan.NOSPAM.ca.ibm.com

Perhaps this will help?

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=53673

Peter

Scott Stanchfield wrote:

> In article <c5bdv9$pfi$1@eclipse.org>, jcompagner@j-com.nl says...
>
>>Hi guys
>>
>>I have attached 2 picturs...
>>one of eclipse 2.1.3 and one 3.0M8+
>>
>>So can anybody really say why the are so extremely agains the new lnf??
>>Please give me really good pointers.. not vague things..
>
>
> Listen...
>
> we've been over this before.
>
> There are like a billion little things that all add up to a user
> experience we don't like.
>
> Not to mention, you've customized the heck out of your colors and such
> to try and make them look closer so it's not as obvious.
>
> Many folks have said "give us the list".
>
> We say "give us what we had".
>
> Development knows what they changed, and there are too many little
> things to really know if we listed them all.
>
> We just want what we had. It worked well. If people want changes, let
> them be options.
>
> That's all we're asking. Don't force-feed us changes we never asked for
> or wanted.
>
> That was the beauty of things like the "Randy Patch". It gave the choice
> to people who wanted alternatives.
>
> Don't make us write a patch just to get back what we had and liked.
>
> -- Scott
>
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226562 is a reply to message #226444] Sun, 11 April 2004 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
In article <c5bsok$5tf$1@eclipse.org>, jcompagner@j-com.nl says...
> > Not to mention, you've customized the heck out of your colors and such
> > to try and make them look closer so it's not as obvious.
>
> so???
> That is just a theme...

And I have to do a lot of work to get to where you are, which still
isn't right looking.

> So they have just add one theme to the list and you are happy??
> Because i asked what is still wrong with that picture?
> I haven't seen any definate answer yet..

Eric Rizzo said it best. He called it a "Fisher-Price" look and feel.
Yes it's not as offensive as it was with the earlier preview jars, but
it's still pretty bad.

If you look through the posts you'll see all sorts of things. Because I
like you ;) here's a few off the top of my head:

* placement of perspective bar - make it an option, the default being
where it was

* borders -- I liked the 3D floaters instead of the nasty blue lines

* no title bar text (really awful when the view tabs are at the bottom
where they used to be and I liked, out of the way)

* impossible to drag by the title bars (try putting the tabs at the
bottom and see how comfy it is to rearrange views or tear off a view and
move it around -- especially when trying to put it back. The "instinct"
is to drag by the title bar...

* the "X"s in the view tabs shouldn't be there -- keep them in the title
bars (and I'd prefer getting them out of the edit tabs as well -- that
would reduce the issue of tab size getting too small.

* tabs resize when selected to show the full name -- this forces some
tabs to chevron hell, which forces me to click twice to get them back.
This is a big GUI sin -- don't change the layout unless the user does
something consciously to call for it. When a tab is selected, other tabs
should not reorder or vanish. Only the contents of the view area should
change.

* the chevron - if someone wants a drop-down list of things to edit, why
not make it a context menu option or a key press? Right-click on a tab
to see all of the edit items.

* the cartoonish look, from colors, to curved lines in toolbars, to the
big fat "X" icons (which make the tabs bigger)
(See http://www.javadude.com/tools/tabsplitter/ -- the new L&F reminds
me of this, which was one of my first Java components. I wrote it after
I had been playing with Java a few months. Pretty cheesy, eh? Although I
think the "+/-" buttons wouldn't be a half bad idea -- that came from my
OS/2 days... Try the demo and right-click on the tabs)

* the waste of space caused by the perspective bar when there is more
than one line of toolbar buttons

* status displayed on the right of the status line instead of the left

And there seems to be something new that bites me on the add every time
I open up M8.


To be honest, I'm on the fence about the icons. Eclipse never used
"standard" platform-specific icons to start with. I like having the
icons in color, which, by the way, is pretty standard for apps anyway,
at least on Windows XP.

I think it would be better to use common, platform-specific icons. Many
of the icons already exist in common places on each O/S. Why reinvent
them and have people try to figure out what they are?
(This is not just an issue with the new L&F, though -- it also affects
the old L&F)

As far as things I like go, I like the feedback when dragging views, and
being able to tear-off views (and having the perspective remember across
sessions). This could have been done without changing all the other
things, though.


Now if you say "open a bug report for each of these" I'll have to fly
across the pond and slap you silly.

We have opened two bugs for just this purpose -- give us back the old
L&F, either as the only L&F or as a choice. We shouldn't have to list
everything that changed -- the developers know what's changed.

I don't want to chase this for the next two years trying to get tons of
little options to approximate the old L&F. I've listed some items above
but I keep finding more here and there when I try to do things.

The old L&F worked well for lots of people. They know what they changed.
Give it back.

Until then, I'm sticking with 3.0M7 and maybe I'll start patching in
some changes from other plugins.

> So i am now absolutely agains having 2 brands. Waste of time for the developers.
> Because you can see with the change of 4!!! color settings i have succeeded into
> making it just look like the old one. So they should just add one extra theme
> and they have the old lnf back..

But it doesn't look like the old one, man... You've made it slightly
less offensive, but it still looks bad.

If the UI team doesn't do something, we will end up having at least two
UIs -- someone will create a patch, possibly more than one. Talk about a
waste of time.


I'm even more concerned that if the developers take the "we don't care
what you liked" attitude they have now, what types of changes could we
see in the future?

> > That was the beauty of things like the "Randy Patch". It gave the choice
> > to people who wanted alternatives.
>
> no really i have pushed and pushed the eclipse team to implement them into the base
> because keeping it up to date was a very very tedious job (i did it for a long time
> for every integration build i wanted to use..)

Can't say I blame you, but not everyone used the Randy patch. I was
happy that it existed to make life for some folks easier, but that
doesn't mean it's the right thing for everyone.

Later,
-- Scott
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226606 is a reply to message #226562] Sun, 11 April 2004 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Come on - every time somebody says anything about the look and feel and
a new war starts ...
We have these two (or maybe even three) arguing threads, aren't they
enough?

Scott Stanchfield wrote:

>In article <c5bsok$5tf$1@eclipse.org>, jcompagner@j-com.nl says...
>
>
>>>Not to mention, you've customized the heck out of your colors and such
>>>to try and make them look closer so it's not as obvious.
>>>
>>>
>>so???
>>That is just a theme...
>>
>>
>
>And I have to do a lot of work to get to where you are, which still
>isn't right looking.
>
>
>
>>So they have just add one theme to the list and you are happy??
>>Because i asked what is still wrong with that picture?
>>I haven't seen any definate answer yet..
>>
>>
>
>Eric Rizzo said it best. He called it a "Fisher-Price" look and feel.
>Yes it's not as offensive as it was with the earlier preview jars, but
>it's still pretty bad.
>
>If you look through the posts you'll see all sorts of things. Because I
>like you ;) here's a few off the top of my head:
>
>* placement of perspective bar - make it an option, the default being
>where it was
>
>* borders -- I liked the 3D floaters instead of the nasty blue lines
>
>* no title bar text (really awful when the view tabs are at the bottom
>where they used to be and I liked, out of the way)
>
>* impossible to drag by the title bars (try putting the tabs at the
>bottom and see how comfy it is to rearrange views or tear off a view and
>move it around -- especially when trying to put it back. The "instinct"
>is to drag by the title bar...
>
>* the "X"s in the view tabs shouldn't be there -- keep them in the title
>bars (and I'd prefer getting them out of the edit tabs as well -- that
>would reduce the issue of tab size getting too small.
>
>* tabs resize when selected to show the full name -- this forces some
>tabs to chevron hell, which forces me to click twice to get them back.
>This is a big GUI sin -- don't change the layout unless the user does
>something consciously to call for it. When a tab is selected, other tabs
>should not reorder or vanish. Only the contents of the view area should
>change.
>
>* the chevron - if someone wants a drop-down list of things to edit, why
>not make it a context menu option or a key press? Right-click on a tab
>to see all of the edit items.
>
>* the cartoonish look, from colors, to curved lines in toolbars, to the
>big fat "X" icons (which make the tabs bigger)
>(See http://www.javadude.com/tools/tabsplitter/ -- the new L&F reminds
>me of this, which was one of my first Java components. I wrote it after
>I had been playing with Java a few months. Pretty cheesy, eh? Although I
>think the "+/-" buttons wouldn't be a half bad idea -- that came from my
>OS/2 days... Try the demo and right-click on the tabs)
>
>* the waste of space caused by the perspective bar when there is more
>than one line of toolbar buttons
>
>* status displayed on the right of the status line instead of the left
>
>And there seems to be something new that bites me on the add every time
>I open up M8.
>
>
>To be honest, I'm on the fence about the icons. Eclipse never used
>"standard" platform-specific icons to start with. I like having the
>icons in color, which, by the way, is pretty standard for apps anyway,
>at least on Windows XP.
>
>I think it would be better to use common, platform-specific icons. Many
>of the icons already exist in common places on each O/S. Why reinvent
>them and have people try to figure out what they are?
>(This is not just an issue with the new L&F, though -- it also affects
>the old L&F)
>
>As far as things I like go, I like the feedback when dragging views, and
>being able to tear-off views (and having the perspective remember across
>sessions). This could have been done without changing all the other
>things, though.
>
>
>Now if you say "open a bug report for each of these" I'll have to fly
>across the pond and slap you silly.
>
>We have opened two bugs for just this purpose -- give us back the old
>L&F, either as the only L&F or as a choice. We shouldn't have to list
>everything that changed -- the developers know what's changed.
>
>I don't want to chase this for the next two years trying to get tons of
>little options to approximate the old L&F. I've listed some items above
>but I keep finding more here and there when I try to do things.
>
>The old L&F worked well for lots of people. They know what they changed.
>Give it back.
>
>Until then, I'm sticking with 3.0M7 and maybe I'll start patching in
>some changes from other plugins.
>
>
>
>>So i am now absolutely agains having 2 brands. Waste of time for the developers.
>>Because you can see with the change of 4!!! color settings i have succeeded into
>>making it just look like the old one. So they should just add one extra theme
>>and they have the old lnf back..
>>
>>
>
>But it doesn't look like the old one, man... You've made it slightly
>less offensive, but it still looks bad.
>
>If the UI team doesn't do something, we will end up having at least two
>UIs -- someone will create a patch, possibly more than one. Talk about a
>waste of time.
>
>
>I'm even more concerned that if the developers take the "we don't care
>what you liked" attitude they have now, what types of changes could we
>see in the future?
>
>
>
>>>That was the beauty of things like the "Randy Patch". It gave the choice
>>>to people who wanted alternatives.
>>>
>>>
>>no really i have pushed and pushed the eclipse team to implement them into the base
>>because keeping it up to date was a very very tedious job (i did it for a long time
>>for every integration build i wanted to use..)
>>
>>
>
>Can't say I blame you, but not everyone used the Randy patch. I was
>happy that it existed to make life for some folks easier, but that
>doesn't mean it's the right thing for everyone.
>
>Later,
>-- Scott
>
>

--
Genady Beryozkin
http://www.genady.net/
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226613 is a reply to message #226562] Sun, 11 April 2004 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
scott,

> * placement of perspective bar - make it an option, the default being
> where it was

If they make it a preference then it is ok by me.
I never want it again on the left side..
I don't use it even a lot so if it was me the perspective bar could be gone
from the view completely.


>
> * borders -- I liked the 3D floaters instead of the nasty blue lines

which blue lines? I don't have any blue lines.
See my picture..



> * no title bar text (really awful when the view tabs are at the bottom
> where they used to be and I liked, out of the way)

2.1 had also title bar text.. So that is not changed.
The only thing that is changed that in 3.0 the titlebar is much much smaller.
So takes little space and that is better!


> * impossible to drag by the title bars (try putting the tabs at the
> bottom and see how comfy it is to rearrange views or tear off a view and
> move it around -- especially when trying to put it back. The "instinct"
> is to drag by the title bar...

yes as you could in 2.1 so this is a valid point. They should als start a drag
when you are in the title bar.. Make a bug report!


> * the "X"s in the view tabs shouldn't be there -- keep them in the title
> bars (and I'd prefer getting them out of the edit tabs as well -- that
> would reduce the issue of tab size getting too small.

In 2.1 the close button was in the title bar. But in 3.0 the title bar is much
smaller and doesn't hold anything then the name anymore as far as i can see.
So the have the 2.1 style back they should be in the toolbar of the view?
But i think this isn't what the eclipse developers want..
So put the X right besides the minimize and maximize buttons.. That would be better.


>
> * tabs resize when selected to show the full name -- this forces some
> tabs to chevron hell, which forces me to click twice to get them back.
> This is a big GUI sin -- don't change the layout unless the user does
> something consciously to call for it. When a tab is selected, other tabs
> should not reorder or vanish. Only the contents of the view area should
> change.

This is not the case in the editors tab. But it is the case in the view tabs
And this only happens because of the close button..
So hopefully they are removing the close button or don't resize the view tabs
in one of the next integration builds..


> * the chevron - if someone wants a drop-down list of things to edit, why
> not make it a context menu option or a key press? Right-click on a tab
> to see all of the edit items.

They had that..
but suddenly double click to maximize didn't work anymore.. So i screamed out loud.
Now the have completely remove that again. That i didn't say...
I recommended that they should do maximize on double click and show drop down list
on single click.
But anyway i use CTRL-E because that is much better because you can then also directly
type the name you want with wildcards ect ect. very very handy..
A feature i don't want to loose anymore..
Now the downside.. If the chevron isn't there (not enough tabs yet) the CTRL-E/drop down
list also doesn't work!! And that is annoying.. hopefully the fix that..


> * the waste of space caused by the perspective bar when there is more
> than one line of toolbar buttons

this is don't get.
How is space wasted because there is more then one line of toolbar buttons?
Do you mean because of the perspective toolbar you now need 2 lines?
I know in what resolution you work, same as me, so you have plenty space there ..



> * status displayed on the right of the status line instead of the left

i have 2.1 and 3.0 besides it other here. And i really don't see any difference in the
status line. Except a small move to the right because of the space the never used fastview
area takes.


> To be honest, I'm on the fence about the icons. Eclipse never used
> "standard" platform-specific icons to start with. I like having the
> icons in color, which, by the way, is pretty standard for apps anyway,
> at least on Windows XP.

ok but this is not a new lnf problem..
And right now they are changing every icon they use so i would start shouting :)
This is a thing where we are on the sameside i believe. Because i don't get why
all the icons needs to be brushed...
The save and print icons are the best examples of this.. ugly ugly ugly..

But the questions is.. Are there standard platform specific icons??

> As far as things I like go, I like the feedback when dragging views, and
> being able to tear-off views (and having the perspective remember across
> sessions). This could have been done without changing all the other
> things, though.

i don't find tearoff very interessting.. wouldn't use it a lot anyway.
What i do like and use is the minimize option of view.
The perspective bar location, the fast view location.
the very nice editor tabs popup and its keybinding (CTRL-E)


>
> Now if you say "open a bug report for each of these" I'll have to fly
> across the pond and slap you silly.

ahh that i want to see!
Please file a bug report for each of these! i will add my self to the CC
:))


> We have opened two bugs for just this purpose -- give us back the old
> L&F, either as the only L&F or as a choice. We shouldn't have to list
> everything that changed -- the developers know what's changed.

If they would give us the old L&F back by replacing the new one
I would start screaming in the newsgroups and bugzilla.. I would start a voting
system.. everything what is in my power.
Because of this i reinstalled 2.1.3 and i find it so extremely ugly now that
i really really don't want back..

Of course there are some things that could be fixed. But if i see from where
we did come, the path for M7 that you could enable, which i really didn't like
i am confinced that we will get the perfect look with the final 3.0


>
> But it doesn't look like the old one, man... You've made it slightly
> less offensive, but it still looks bad.

how soo?
The tabs and the views looks almost the same.
And the tabs of 2.1 aren't really tabs at all they are just gray area's
the selected tab is noticable but hardly readable..
I have no much mor choice how thet tabs should look

And if i look at the other replies then you see that they all are agreeing
with me...


>
> If the UI team doesn't do something, we will end up having at least two
> UIs -- someone will create a patch, possibly more than one. Talk about a
> waste of time.

but not their waste.
And i have long wasted much time by keeping randy's patch up to date
Now finally the eclips team did all the changed i wanted so i won't have
to waste any time anymore! :)))

johan
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226643 is a reply to message #226613] Sun, 11 April 2004 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
In article <c5c898$fm8$1@eclipse.org>, jcompagner@j-com.nl says...
> scott,
>
> > * placement of perspective bar - make it an option, the default being
> > where it was
>
> If they make it a preference then it is ok by me.
> I never want it again on the left side..
> I don't use it even a lot so if it was me the perspective bar could be gone
> from the view completely.

As I said, preferences for changing things like this don't bother me.


> > * borders -- I liked the 3D floaters instead of the nasty blue lines
>
> which blue lines? I don't have any blue lines.
> See my picture..

See http://javadude.com/misc/evilm8.gif

> > * no title bar text (really awful when the view tabs are at the bottom
> > where they used to be and I liked, out of the way)
>
> 2.1 had also title bar text.. So that is not changed.
> The only thing that is changed that in 3.0 the titlebar is much much smaller.
> So takes little space and that is better!

I meant that I *want* the titles in the views; m8 has no title bar text.
See the pic -- you have to awkwardly look at the bottom of the view for
the tab to see what the view is. (I like the view tabs on the bottom so
I don't have to skip over them as I scan down the screen)

> > * impossible to drag by the title bars (try putting the tabs at the
> > [...]
>
> yes as you could in 2.1 so this is a valid point. They should als start a drag
> when you are in the title bar.. Make a bug report!

Don't make me come over there!!!

I told you (below) we have two perfectly good bug reports.


> > * the "X"s in the view tabs shouldn't be there -- keep them in the title
> > [...]
>
> In 2.1 the close button was in the title bar. But in 3.0 the title bar is much
> smaller and doesn't hold anything then the name anymore as far as i can see.
> So the have the 2.1 style back they should be in the toolbar of the view?
> But i think this isn't what the eclipse developers want..
> So put the X right besides the minimize and maximize buttons.. That would be better.

The max/min and X should always be at the top of the view. See the pic I
posted for the problem.

This would mean that either they stay in the toolbar or move to the
toolbar if the tabs are at the bottom. They're pretty useless and
confusing at the bottom of the view.

The titlebar in pre 3.0M8 was separate from the view toolbar, which made
it easier, but took an extra line on the screen.

I think the title at the top is essential for usability, though, and in
the views I didn't mind losing that line.


> > * tabs resize when selected to show the full name -- this forces some
> > tabs to chevron hell, which forces me to click twice to get them back.
> > This is a big GUI sin -- don't change the layout unless the user does
> > something consciously to call for it. When a tab is selected, other tabs
> > should not reorder or vanish. Only the contents of the view area should
> > change.
>
> This is not the case in the editors tab. But it is the case in the view tabs
> And this only happens because of the close button..
> So hopefully they are removing the close button or don't resize the view tabs
> in one of the next integration builds..

The problem is that if I start with a fairly narrow view area on the
left, when I select "Hierarchy View", it decides that there isn't enough
room for "Package Explorer" and sends it to the evil chevron.


> > * the chevron - if someone wants a drop-down list of things to edit, why
> > not make it a context menu option or a key press? Right-click on a tab
> > to see all of the edit items.
>
> They had that..
> but suddenly double click to maximize didn't work anymore.. So i screamed out loud.

They could have done something like:

* single-click -- activate tab
* double-click -- max (I screamed too)
* right-click -- popup menu

They have a context menu for the tabs now.


> Now the have completely remove that again. That i didn't say...
> I recommended that they should do maximize on double click and show drop down list
> on single click.

I'd just add the editor list to the bottom of the context menu like my
tabsplitter.


> But anyway i use CTRL-E because that is much better because you can then also directly
> type the name you want with wildcards ect ect. very very handy..
> A feature i don't want to loose anymore..
> Now the downside.. If the chevron isn't there (not enough tabs yet) the CTRL-E/drop down
> list also doesn't work!! And that is annoying.. hopefully the fix that..

Editor list via control-e is nice, and I agree it should be consistent.
There were some plugins people wrote to do this before.

> > * the waste of space caused by the perspective bar when there is more
> > than one line of toolbar buttons
>
> this is don't get.
> How is space wasted because there is more then one line of toolbar buttons?
> Do you mean because of the perspective toolbar you now need 2 lines?
> I know in what resolution you work, same as me, so you have plenty space there ..

I also have to use 800x600 or 1024x768 when teaching (lame projectors)
or making demo videos. The pic I posted is at 800x600 so you should see
the waste...

This is where having the perspectives on the left is perfect -- the
toolbars can show all (current) buttons at lower res in one row.

> > * status displayed on the right of the status line instead of the left
>
> i have 2.1 and 3.0 besides it other here. And i really don't see any difference in the
> status line. Except a small move to the right because of the space the never used fastview
> area takes.

Progress for example, pre m8, was on the left, along with compiler
messages and such.

Now I need to look on two sides of the status bar, not to mention, the
"insert" and line/col look pretty silly floating in the center of the
status bar.

This also gives less room for longer compiler messages. The left status
area used to be pretty large (everything minus read/write, insert and
line/col status). Evil.


> > To be honest, I'm on the fence about the icons. Eclipse never used
> > "standard" platform-specific icons to start with. I like having the
> > icons in color, which, by the way, is pretty standard for apps anyway,
> > at least on Windows XP.
>
> ok but this is not a new lnf problem..

(Which is why I said "Eclipse never used..." ;)

> And right now they are changing every icon they use so i would start shouting :)
> This is a thing where we are on the sameside i believe. Because i don't get why
> all the icons needs to be brushed...
> The save and print icons are the best examples of this.. ugly ugly ugly..

<g>


> But the questions is.. Are there standard platform specific icons??

AFAIK there are some defined in the UI standard guides for some
platforms, and there are other "defacto" standard icons that most apps
seem to use. At very least, the icons should follow the standard sizing
and palette usage that each platform seems to use. The mac screenshots
that some folks posted showed a huge discrepency in icon sizes...

> > As far as things I like go, I like the feedback when dragging views, and
> > being able to tear-off views (and having the perspective remember across
> > sessions). This could have been done without changing all the other
> > things, though.
>
> i don't find tearoff very interessting.. wouldn't use it a lot anyway.

I prefer working in SDI mode -- basically each view area would be a
separate window. This allows me to have other windows, like an IE
instance or a file explorer open on the screen at the same time as
eclipse, wthout having to constantly do the alt-tab flip.

> What i do like and use is the minimize option of view.

Didn't click for me... I never really liked the "rollup" option on other
systems. I find it easier to just let the windows overlap and click
between them.

> The perspective bar location, the fast view location.
> the very nice editor tabs popup and its keybinding (CTRL-E)


> > Now if you say "open a bug report for each of these" I'll have to fly
> > across the pond and slap you silly.
>
> ahh that i want to see!
> Please file a bug report for each of these! i will add my self to the CC
> :))

Nope. As I said, we entered our bugs, and they have huge vote counts.

No other reports should be needed.


> > We have opened two bugs for just this purpose -- give us back the old
> > L&F, either as the only L&F or as a choice. We shouldn't have to list
> > everything that changed -- the developers know what's changed.
>
> If they would give us the old L&F back by replacing the new one
> I would start screaming in the newsgroups and bugzilla..

I didn't say the old L&F has to be the only one. The leading bug is the
one for giving a pref of the (real) old L&F and the new one.


> I would start a voting
> system.. everything what is in my power.
> Because of this i reinstalled 2.1.3 and i find it so extremely ugly now that
> i really really don't want back..

I completely understand your position (it's my position right now...)
You found a L&F you like, and if it's taken away, you need to complain.

That's what I'm doing.

> > But it doesn't look like the old one, man... You've made it slightly
> > less offensive, but it still looks bad.
>
> how soo?

See all of my above comments and the pic I just posted.

> And if i look at the other replies then you see that they all are agreeing
> with me...

Eh? I've seen countless posts and bug comments stating that they don't
look right.

> > If the UI team doesn't do something, we will end up having at least two
> > UIs -- someone will create a patch, possibly more than one. Talk about a
> > waste of time.
>
> but not their waste.
> And i have long wasted much time by keeping randy's patch up to date
> Now finally the eclips team did all the changed i wanted so i won't have
> to waste any time anymore! :)))

It was your time to tweak it how you like. Now I'm paying for it, and
I'm pissed that what was once good has been broken.

later,
-- Scott
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226714 is a reply to message #226643] Mon, 12 April 2004 01:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
>>>* borders -- I liked the 3D floaters instead of the nasty blue lines
>>
>>which blue lines? I don't have any blue lines.
>>See my picture..
>
>
> See http://javadude.com/misc/evilm8.gif

ok now that pictures doesn't make it clear
first: blue border is just a color.. Look at my picture
i don't have a blue border. So that is just a theme thing...
completely irrelevant.

youre wasted space is very very strange.. Because if the perspective bar
wasn't there totally then on that place you had a complete gray area
of wasted space!! so what is the big deal?
i never never needed 2 lines of toolbars and even if i did do you think
that it just was needed because of those 3,4 icons the perspective bar takes?
Also don't show the text in the perspective bar, that is just silly
Wasted space is just the reason i want the pespective bar there. Now
it just doesn't waste space any way you see it, because the empty space is there.

I agree with youre X on the views.. And that views should be able to
compress its names a bit. (2 settings: editor compression, view compression
we have had those settings onces.. at least one of them)

I don't want titles.. They waste space...
I already said that i find it for example strange that the synchronize view
does seem to have a titlebar which also says synchronize.. completely redundent info.
Maybe if you have bottom tabs it is needed but why if you want the name at the
top, why not top tabs?? I also had bottom tabs in 2.1 but i am completely used
to all tabs on top. And i agree with the eclipse team this is better. Especially
if it frees up space because i don't need that title bar.


> The max/min and X should always be at the top of the view. See the pic I
> posted for the problem.

aaghh that would be a waste op space!!!
Then you could have youre title bar back yes.

Why do you want everything at the top. Except the tabs? Just put the tabs also at the
top and you seem to have exactly what you want..

>
> The problem is that if I start with a fairly narrow view area on the
> left, when I select "Hierarchy View", it decides that there isn't enough
> room for "Package Explorer" and sends it to the evil chevron.

yes you are right, this is because of the close button.
They need to fix this.


> They could have done something like:
>
> * single-click -- activate tab
> * double-click -- max (I screamed too)
> * right-click -- popup menu
>
> They have a context menu for the tabs now.

hmm i don't think they will throw out that context menu..
where for example would pin editor go to?

why not single click on active tab (doesn't select anything anymore)
will popup menu?

>
>
>>Now the have completely remove that again. That i didn't say...
>>I recommended that they should do maximize on double click and show drop down list
>>on single click.
>
> I'd just add the editor list to the bottom of the context menu like my
> tabsplitter.

the editor list pretty is special.. you also have text input (GREAT feature!!)

>
> I also have to use 800x600 or 1024x768 when teaching (lame projectors)
> or making demo videos. The pic I posted is at 800x600 so you should see
> the waste...

see comments above not really, you could hold in in one line very nice
start by removing the text from the pespective bar


> This is where having the perspectives on the left is perfect -- the
> toolbars can show all (current) buttons at lower res in one row.

This margin that they could show it in one row is so so slim
Because it only takes 3 to 4 icons of extra space. So if it is that full..
So only in very special conditions you have an extra line.

If i look at my view. Then in 1600x1200 i have a toolbar that is just halve filled
so even in 800x600 it should be ok. And this is the java pespective with a few
plugins in stalled that also takes some icons (4)


> Progress for example, pre m8, was on the left, along with compiler
> messages and such.

progress was moved a lot around..
And why can't progress be there? What is the big deal?


> Now I need to look on two sides of the status bar, not to mention, the
> "insert" and line/col look pretty silly floating in the center of the
> status bar.

center??
long long way away from center from my point of view


> This also gives less room for longer compiler messages. The left status
> area used to be pretty large (everything minus read/write, insert and
> line/col status). Evil.

plenty space in my opinion. I only want space space space in my editors.



>
> Nope. As I said, we entered our bugs, and they have huge vote counts.
>
> No other reports should be needed.

those bug reports describe to much at onces.
If i where a developer i would split them myself..
Because 10 things in one bug report is really not doable an trackable.

> I didn't say the old L&F has to be the only one. The leading bug is the
> one for giving a pref of the (real) old L&F and the new one.

then maintain 2 branches?
Have 2 CTab implementations??

> See all of my above comments and the pic I just posted.

i shot down most of youre comments in youre pic so i am still not confinced. :)

> Eh? I've seen countless posts and bug comments stating that they don't
> look right.

look at my compare picture post..
All the onces that reply on that are agreeing in there own ways that yes
the look almost exactly the same.

johan
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226727 is a reply to message #226643] Mon, 12 April 2004 04:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Scott Stanchfield wrote:

> See http://javadude.com/misc/evilm8.gif

Is that an out-of-the-box M8? I've only the I-build from 7th of April
handy. If I start this, it opens in 800x600 and the UI is not as
cluttered as on your screen.

- The toolbar has no gaps so there's no wrap around of the arrow buttons
and everything fits into one row. So no "Wasted Space" (NB: I prefer to
lock the Toolbars to get rid of that drag handles I never use and to
remove the perspective names)

- The tabs are above, not below the views. The "No title" argument
isn't valid then. I don't consider the "X" being a waste of space
because there should be some way visible to close views. This is
required for editors. Now we've to balance uniformity with usability
and space it takes. It makes sence that all tabs work the same,
regardless of whether they're editor tabs or view tabs. (NB: I can't
stand the curved tabs and I'm glad that the "traditional" tabs are the
default. I could live with view tabs having no close but I need it on
editor tabs)

- I agree with you, that the "Chevron when hierarchy tab selected" is
still bad. That there's a ">>" is a good thing, but it's strange that
both names if if the package explorer is displayed and they don't fit
otherwise. That's surprising and suprises don't belong into a UI. So
yes, this point has to be improved - for example by removing the X from
view tabs.

- The "Cartonish blue border" perfectly fits the XP task bar so IMHO it
results into a more consistent UI on Windows XP and is not alien.
Please also notice that it always fits the selected XP theme - normally
I'm using the greenish one so my "cartonish" border is light green.
(Unfortunately it doesn't automatically change color if I change themes.
I've to restart Eclipse).


bye
--
Stefan Matthias Aust // "Zweifel sind der Ansporn des Denkens..." -U
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226865 is a reply to message #226714] Mon, 12 April 2004 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
In article <c5d9hb$ahp$1@eclipse.org>, jcompagner@j-com.nl says...
> >>>* borders -- I liked the 3D floaters instead of the nasty blue lines
> >>
> >>which blue lines? I don't have any blue lines.
> >>See my picture..
> >
> >
> > See http://javadude.com/misc/evilm8.gif
>
> ok now that pictures doesn't make it clear
> first: blue border is just a color.. Look at my picture
> i don't have a blue border. So that is just a theme thing...
> completely irrelevant.

It's an ugly solid color highlight vs the old 3D floating border I
liked...

> youre wasted space is very very strange.. Because if the perspective bar
> wasn't there totally then on that place you had a complete gray area
> of wasted space!! so what is the big deal?

It should act like a normal toolbar group and only take up space in a
single row...

> i never never needed 2 lines of toolbars and even if i did do you think
> that it just was needed because of those 3,4 icons the perspective bar takes?

As I said, it's because of the reduced screen area, which occurs often
for me when teaching or creating video captures.

Not to menion, as more plugins are added, so are more toolbar buttons
(XML Buddy, for example, adds six buttons), which will end up forcing
multiple rows at larger resolutions, which will have the same effect.

> Also don't show the text in the perspective bar, that is just silly
> Wasted space is just the reason i want the pespective bar there. Now
> it just doesn't waste space any way you see it, because the empty space is there.

Even with the text, as soon as I add XML Buddy (which I use when
teaching), the same effect occurs.

> I don't want titles.. They waste space...

I do -- I can't tell what the hell a view is without looking at the
bottom, where I like to have the tabs to reduce the noise looking down
the page.

> I already said that i find it for example strange that the synchronize view
> does seem to have a titlebar which also says synchronize.. completely redundent info.
> Maybe if you have bottom tabs it is needed but why if you want the name at the
> top, why not top tabs??

Because they don't completely display the name of the view, as we got on
M7 and before, not to mention the "dragging by tab" issue which is just
plain wrong.

> I also had bottom tabs in 2.1 but i am completely used
> to all tabs on top. And i agree with the eclipse team this is better. Especially
> if it frees up space because i don't need that title bar.

The tabs started on the bottom and have always been a preference. Lots
of people like them there.

Again, don't remove prefs on us just because the default is one you
like...

> > The max/min and X should always be at the top of the view. See the pic I
> > posted for the problem.
>
> aaghh that would be a waste op space!!!
> Then you could have youre title bar back yes.

From a UI design POV, "windows" (lower-case "w") always have control
decorations at the top. It's an incredibly common expectation, and it's
totall non-intuitive to have them at the bottom.

> Why do you want everything at the top. Except the tabs? Just put the tabs also at the
> top and you seem to have exactly what you want..

Because the tabs truncate the names, and I'm incredibly used to them
being on the bottom, out of the way.

> > The problem is that if I start with a fairly narrow view area on the
> > left, when I select "Hierarchy View", it decides that there isn't enough
> > room for "Package Explorer" and sends it to the evil chevron.
>
> yes you are right, this is because of the close button.
> They need to fix this.

Even if the close button weren't there, you can still easily get that
behavior. Just shrink the area more or just add another stacked view...


>
>
> > They could have done something like:
> >
> > * single-click -- activate tab
> > * double-click -- max (I screamed too)
> > * right-click -- popup menu
> >
> > They have a context menu for the tabs now.
>
> hmm i don't think they will throw out that context menu..
> where for example would pin editor go to?

no no no -- I mean add the list *below* the current items on the popup
or something like that.

> why not single click on active tab (doesn't select anything anymore)
> will popup menu?

It's confusing. Click behavior shouldn't change like that.


> > This is where having the perspectives on the left is perfect -- the
> > toolbars can show all (current) buttons at lower res in one row.
> [...]
> If i look at my view. Then in 1600x1200 i have a toolbar that is just halve filled
> so even in 800x600 it should be ok. And this is the java pespective with a few
> plugins in stalled that also takes some icons (4)

Add XML buddy or a few other plugins and the toolbar expands quickly.


> > Progress for example, pre m8, was on the left, along with compiler
> > messages and such.
>
> progress was moved a lot around..
> And why can't progress be there? What is the big deal?

read on...

> > Now I need to look on two sides of the status bar, not to mention, the
> > "insert" and line/col look pretty silly floating in the center of the
> > status bar.
>
> center??
> long long way away from center from my point of view

It's floating in a weird position. Every other tool on the planet that
has a status line puts constant info on one side, varying info on the
other.

IE, for example:

------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
| status message progress | security info|
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------

The security info is always there (constant), the progress bar appears
when necessary, and status messages are always on the left (done, URL,
etc).


UltraEdit (as well as pretty much every editor with a status line I've
seen):

------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
| status message | Ln 1, Col 1 | DOS | OVR | Size: 123 | INS| CAP|
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------

And so forth.

The constant stuff shouldn't "float"


> > [we already wrote bugf reports]
> those bug reports describe to much at onces.

AND BUG 37997 DIDN'T?

> If i where a developer i would split them myself..
> Because 10 things in one bug report is really not doable an trackable.

See my shout above.

> > I didn't say the old L&F has to be the only one. The leading bug is the
> > one for giving a pref of the (real) old L&F and the new one.
>
> then maintain 2 branches?
> Have 2 CTab implementations??

Or one. The old one that people liked... I'm cool with two.

-- Scott
Re: The new LnF What is now so different??? [message #226916 is a reply to message #226727] Mon, 12 April 2004 10:41 Go to previous message
Eclipse UserFriend
In article <c5di75$hed$1@eclipse.org>, sma@3plus4.de says...
> Scott Stanchfield wrote:
>
> > See http://javadude.com/misc/evilm8.gif
>
> Is that an out-of-the-box M8? I've only the I-build from 7th of April
> handy. If I start this, it opens in 800x600 and the UI is not as
> cluttered as on your screen.

Out of the box M8 in the Java Perspective, with tabs moved to the bottom
(where they originally were and where I liked them)

The only other thing I did was to select the "Hierarchy" tab to
demonstrate the chevron dance. No resizing after the selection!

> - The toolbar has no gaps so there's no wrap around of the arrow buttons
> and everything fits into one row. So no "Wasted Space" (NB: I prefer to
> lock the Toolbars to get rid of that drag handles I never use and to
> remove the perspective names)

Go to the Java Perspective -- that adds several icons to the toolbar and
the arrows jump to the next toolbar line, and some weird
"justification" happens to cause that gap.


> - The tabs are above, not below the views.
> The "No title" argument isn't valid then.

Not when I select the option to put them below, where I've liked them
since day 1 of the first Eclipse beta.

See
http://javadude.com/misc/m7title.gif
http://javadude.com/misc/m8title.gif

I made the amount of space used by the package explorer view the same in
both instances.

In order to see the full title I've got to expand the M8 view another 60
pixels wide.

Also notice that in M7 I've got XML buddy installed and it's forcing a
second toolbar row, even without the perspective icons -- the
perspective icons will do the evil ugly wasted space trick


> I don't consider the "X" being a waste of space
> because there should be some way visible to close views.

Of course -- but why do we need more than one X per view area? One for
all of the tabs is enough. Just put it next to the max/min buttons where
it belongs.


> - The "Cartonish blue border" perfectly fits the XP task bar so IMHO it
> results into a more consistent UI on Windows XP and is not alien.

I'm running XP and it looks just plain wrong. Look at things like the
Windows File Explorer -- no nasty blue lines.

The closest I can see to that look is Outlook 2003, but it doesn't look
like that either.

Can someone show me a picture of a windows app that looks like that???

I know this will get turned into "show me a pic of a windows app that
looks like M7", but as I've stated, it *blends* better with the other
apps. As far as I've seen there are no true pane border standards, but
m8 doesn't come close to anything. See my new post today about "How does
M8 look like Win XP?"

-- Scott
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