Home » Eclipse Projects » Eclipse Platform » New Look vs RCP vs IDE
| New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #199948] |
Mon, 23 February 2004 11:44  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: moopa06.ca.com
For those of you that don't know it M8 includes a radical new L&F.
You can run it under M7 by tweaking some jars, in the latest integration
build its there as standard.
If you have not seen it you should check it out.
For the users of eclipse as an IDE its kind of funky; some like it, many
don't (It sure doesn't look native any more though)
For people developing RCP apps this will be a disaster. A very distinctive
L&F is being forced on us (Metal Swing anyone?).
It is one thing to have a wierd IDE, its another to force my apps to look
funky.
Anybody developing RCP apps is encouraged to look at this new UI ASAP. If
you don't like it please vote for this bug
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=52780
If donwloading m7 or the latest integration build is too much hassle then
here is a link to a screen shot
http://download.eclipse.org/downloads/drops/S-3.0M7-20040212 2000/eclipse-news-part3-M7.html
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| Re: New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #200436 is a reply to message #199948] |
Mon, 23 February 2004 20:48  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: PeterMayne.ap.spherion.com
I looked at the description for bug 37997:
<quote>
Evolve the Eclipse user experience. Eclipse 3.0 should have a new look
that makes more effective use of the capabilities of current desktop
computers.
This includes allowing the user to customize the workbench by creating
floating toolbars and views, and supporting tear-off views and dockable
toolbars where supported by the underlying window system. [Platform UI,
JDT UI, SWT] [Theme: User experience]
</quote>
I don't have any argument with the functionality described. However, the
description doesn't mention adding curves, for instance, or how making
the Eclipse L&F inconsistent compared to other Windows applications is
making more effective use of my computer. Can one of the instigators of
this L&F change please comment on why they think such a L&F change is
necessary. I'd be interested to know the reasoning.
(Interestingly, the SWT page doesn't mention nativeness. However, the
first answer in the SWT FAQ says "We developed SWT because we needed a
windowing system that allowed us to build good tools with native look
and feel and performance", and that nativeness seems to be what everyone
likes about SWT.)
Eclipse no longer looks like a native Windows application, which is
rather disappointing. (It brings to mind a modern VAJ. :-) Even worse,
there is no Window -> Preferences -> Workbench -> Appearance -> Use
native L&F option.
There is also at least one problem: If I have two editors open with
multiple tabs showing, there are positions where clicking the mouse will
select one tab while it is still clearly hovering over the other tab.
I haven't voted because, apart from the time and effort wasted which
could be used for more important things, I don't care what funky L&F
anyone comes up with as long as the native L&F is still available. Is
there a bug for "maintain native L&F" that I can vote for? Should the
current bug be split into "L&F" and "functionality" bugs?
PJDM
--
Peter Mayne
Spherion Technology Solutions
Canberra, ACT, Australia
"Dude, where's my IDE?"
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| Re: New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #200672 is a reply to message #199948] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 00:14 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: ed.burnette.REMOVE.THIS.sas.com
See also/cc/vote for:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=52875
"Under the auspices of bug 52685 (continued from bug 37997), the look and
feel
of Eclipse was changed significantly. Many people have commented about
problems with this new look and I won't repeat them here. Work has been done
to address some of those concerns but it's still not enough. This bug entry
requests that the original look and feel simply be restored to its M7 state.
Unlike bug 52780 it doesn't ask for an option to toggle the look, because
such
options needlessly complicate the code, support, and documentation. It
doesn't
ask for one thing to be done for RCP and another thing for the Eclipse IDE.
It
recognizes that CTabFolder is not currently a native widget and that the
classic look is not perfect, however it's much closer to perfect than the
new
look.
Finally it doesn't say that Eclipse's look can never be updated, it simply
requests that such updates be done with native look and feel foremost in
mind."
There is also this one, which includes a poll:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=52892
"Based on the discussions in bug 52780 (not to mention bug 37997, bug 52685
and
bug 52875), and on feedback received at EclipseCon, there is a strong
requirement for RCP apps to look more native than the proposed new look in
the
Eclipse SDK.
Either the old look should be the default for RCP apps, or it should be easy
to
configure it to have the old look.
NOTE: this PR is specifically about the look requirements for RCP apps.
Other PRs have asked for the new look to be completely backed out of the SDK
(bug 52875) or for there to be an option to choose (bug 52780).
Please distribute your comments and votes accordingly."
--
Ed
"paul moore" <moopa06@ca.com> wrote in message
news:c1daki$dro$1@eclipse.org...
> For those of you that don't know it M8 includes a radical new L&F.
> You can run it under M7 by tweaking some jars, in the latest integration
> build its there as standard.
> If you have not seen it you should check it out.
>
> For the users of eclipse as an IDE its kind of funky; some like it, many
> don't (It sure doesn't look native any more though)
>
> For people developing RCP apps this will be a disaster. A very distinctive
> L&F is being forced on us (Metal Swing anyone?).
>
> It is one thing to have a wierd IDE, its another to force my apps to look
> funky.
>
> Anybody developing RCP apps is encouraged to look at this new UI ASAP. If
> you don't like it please vote for this bug
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=52780
>
> If donwloading m7 or the latest integration build is too much hassle then
> here is a link to a screen shot
>
http://download.eclipse.org/downloads/drops/S-3.0M7-20040212 2000/eclipse-new
s-part3-M7.html
>
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| Re: New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #200688 is a reply to message #200436] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 01:51 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: moopa06.ca.com
Peter Mayne wrote:
> I looked at the description for bug 37997:
> <quote>
> Evolve the Eclipse user experience. Eclipse 3.0 should have a new look
> that makes more effective use of the capabilities of current desktop
> computers.
> This includes allowing the user to customize the workbench by creating
> floating toolbars and views, and supporting tear-off views and dockable
> toolbars where supported by the underlying window system. [Platform UI,
> JDT UI, SWT] [Theme: User experience]
> </quote>
> I don't have any argument with the functionality described. However, the
> description doesn't mention adding curves, for instance, or how making
> the Eclipse L&F inconsistent compared to other Windows applications is
> making more effective use of my computer. Can one of the instigators of
> this L&F change please comment on why they think such a L&F change is
> necessary. I'd be interested to know the reasoning.
> (Interestingly, the SWT page doesn't mention nativeness. However, the
> first answer in the SWT FAQ says "We developed SWT because we needed a
> windowing system that allowed us to build good tools with native look
> and feel and performance", and that nativeness seems to be what everyone
> likes about SWT.)
> Eclipse no longer looks like a native Windows application, which is
> rather disappointing. (It brings to mind a modern VAJ. :-) Even worse,
> there is no Window -> Preferences -> Workbench -> Appearance -> Use
> native L&F option.
> There is also at least one problem: If I have two editors open with
> multiple tabs showing, there are positions where clicking the mouse will
> select one tab while it is still clearly hovering over the other tab.
> I haven't voted because, apart from the time and effort wasted which
> could be used for more important things, I don't care what funky L&F
> anyone comes up with as long as the native L&F is still available. Is
> there a bug for "maintain native L&F" that I can vote for? Should the
> current bug be split into "L&F" and "functionality" bugs?
> PJDM
There is also a bug saying forget the whole thing - i forget which number
it is
Please regsiter a vote somewhere, the fine tweaking of the result (revert,
choice, IDE vs RCP) is not so importnt,. More important is a 'whoa , what
the heck is this' - and the devs will pay attention to the bugzilla votes.
The bug is now number 6 in number of votes
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| Re: New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #200754 is a reply to message #199948] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 05:10 |
| Eclipse User |
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"paul moore" <moopa06@ca.com> wrote in message
news:c1daki$dro$1@eclipse.org...
>
> For people developing RCP apps this will be a disaster. A very distinctive
> L&F is being forced on us (Metal Swing anyone?).
>
> It is one thing to have a wierd IDE, its another to force my apps to look
> funky.
>
Well, this is not a disaster for *all* RCP applications :-).
We, rcpsoftware.com, are developing an order management and accounting
application with the Eclipse workbench (v2.2.1).
Our application has a desktop interface that is used mostly for order entry
and a web-based reports portal. Most tasks can be done in either
environment.
A major theme in the feedback that we have received from users is that most
would
prefer to use the web portal than the desktop because they find that "the
web is just friendlier". That is, users think that our web portal is easier
to use. This has been a really big disappointment to me. My long term plan
for our product
included killing off the web portal and giving users remote access to the
application by providing a thin-client, server-based version of our desktop
(using Remote SWT, http://rswt.sf.net).
Of course, their assertion that the web portal is easier to use is
ridiculous. Our web stuff and the desktop stuff is almost exactly alike.
The forms have the same controls on them and are layed out the same. You
enter the same data, etc, etc. If anything, the web stuff should be viewed
as less usable because...a) the web portal is dog slow compared to the
desktop, b) the web portal doesn't have right-click context menus, c) no
keyboard mnemonics, d) doesn't actually print reports as well as the
desktop, and on and on.
The only real difference that I can see is that our forms on the web 'look'
different than the forms in the desktop. The forms on the web have a white
background and a little more color, not the industrial gray background that
our forms have in the (windows) desktop. I think that the look is having a
big
psychological effect on users.
Soooo, I am looking forward to using the new workbench L&F and the new
Eclipse Forms package.
Together I think these two things will go a long way towards making our
application look 'friendlier', the way our users seem to expect it to look.
One thing is certain, our users have no appreciation for the native L&F.
I'm guessing that maybe someone in the Eclipse Group has figured that out
also.
Ted Stockwell
Technical Director
RPC Software
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| Re: New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #200994 is a reply to message #200754] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 12:28 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: moopa06.ca.com
ted stockwell wrote:
> "paul moore" <moopa06@ca.com> wrote in message
> news:c1daki$dro$1@eclipse.org...
> >
> > For people developing RCP apps this will be a disaster. A very distinctive
> > L&F is being forced on us (Metal Swing anyone?).
> >
> > It is one thing to have a wierd IDE, its another to force my apps to look
> > funky.
> >
> Well, this is not a disaster for *all* RCP applications :-).
> We, rcpsoftware.com, are developing an order management and accounting
> application with the Eclipse workbench (v2.2.1).
> Our application has a desktop interface that is used mostly for order entry
> and a web-based reports portal. Most tasks can be done in either
> environment.
> A major theme in the feedback that we have received from users is that most
> would
> prefer to use the web portal than the desktop because they find that "the
> web is just friendlier". That is, users think that our web portal is easier
> to use. This has been a really big disappointment to me. My long term plan
> for our product
> included killing off the web portal and giving users remote access to the
> application by providing a thin-client, server-based version of our desktop
> (using Remote SWT, http://rswt.sf.net).
> Of course, their assertion that the web portal is easier to use is
> ridiculous. Our web stuff and the desktop stuff is almost exactly alike.
> The forms have the same controls on them and are layed out the same. You
> enter the same data, etc, etc. If anything, the web stuff should be viewed
> as less usable because...a) the web portal is dog slow compared to the
> desktop, b) the web portal doesn't have right-click context menus, c) no
> keyboard mnemonics, d) doesn't actually print reports as well as the
> desktop, and on and on.
> The only real difference that I can see is that our forms on the web 'look'
> different than the forms in the desktop. The forms on the web have a white
> background and a little more color, not the industrial gray background that
> our forms have in the (windows) desktop. I think that the look is having a
> big
> psychological effect on users.
> Soooo, I am looking forward to using the new workbench L&F and the new
> Eclipse Forms package.
> Together I think these two things will go a long way towards making our
> application look 'friendlier', the way our users seem to expect it to look.
> One thing is certain, our users have no appreciation for the native L&F.
> I'm guessing that maybe someone in the Eclipse Group has figured that out
> also.
> Ted Stockwell
> Technical Director
> RPC Software
Heres the real issue. If you use the RCP you are forced to use the L&F
that the RCP imposes. If you happen to like it then good, but if not then
you are stuck.
Sounds to me like you should vote for the bug that asks for complete
control over the RCP UI, I.e being able to subclass all the major UI pieces
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| Re: New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #201065 is a reply to message #200994] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 15:09 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dorian.birsan.net
"paul moore" <moopa06@ca.com> wrote in message
news:c1g1k2$q1i$1@eclipse.org...
> ted stockwell wrote:
>
> > "paul moore" <moopa06@ca.com> wrote in message
> > news:c1daki$dro$1@eclipse.org...
> > >
> > > For people developing RCP apps this will be a disaster. A very
distinctive
> > > L&F is being forced on us (Metal Swing anyone?).
> > >
> > > It is one thing to have a wierd IDE, its another to force my apps to
look
> > > funky.
> > >
>
> > Well, this is not a disaster for *all* RCP applications :-).
>
> > We, rcpsoftware.com, are developing an order management and accounting
> > application with the Eclipse workbench (v2.2.1).
> > Our application has a desktop interface that is used mostly for order
entry
> > and a web-based reports portal. Most tasks can be done in either
> > environment.
>
> > A major theme in the feedback that we have received from users is that
most
> > would
> > prefer to use the web portal than the desktop because they find that
"the
> > web is just friendlier". That is, users think that our web portal is
easier
> > to use. This has been a really big disappointment to me. My long term
plan
> > for our product
> > included killing off the web portal and giving users remote access to
the
> > application by providing a thin-client, server-based version of our
desktop
> > (using Remote SWT, http://rswt.sf.net).
>
> > Of course, their assertion that the web portal is easier to use is
> > ridiculous. Our web stuff and the desktop stuff is almost exactly
alike.
> > The forms have the same controls on them and are layed out the same.
You
> > enter the same data, etc, etc. If anything, the web stuff should be
viewed
> > as less usable because...a) the web portal is dog slow compared to the
> > desktop, b) the web portal doesn't have right-click context menus, c) no
> > keyboard mnemonics, d) doesn't actually print reports as well as the
> > desktop, and on and on.
>
> > The only real difference that I can see is that our forms on the web
'look'
> > different than the forms in the desktop. The forms on the web have a
white
> > background and a little more color, not the industrial gray background
that
> > our forms have in the (windows) desktop. I think that the look is
having a
> > big
> > psychological effect on users.
You could also host the web based portal in the SWT Browser, and maybe add
some extra processing on the client (printing reports, etc.) using the
events provided by the widget.
I don't think the L&F is the only thing that bothers users, it is also the
"tactile" experience: even though the browser based app is a bit slower,
people are working with a browser and their expectation is already set
lower. When they work with a desktop app that connects remotely, their
expectations are different.
-Dorian
>
> > Soooo, I am looking forward to using the new workbench L&F and the new
> > Eclipse Forms package.
> > Together I think these two things will go a long way towards making our
> > application look 'friendlier', the way our users seem to expect it to
look.
> > One thing is certain, our users have no appreciation for the native L&F.
> > I'm guessing that maybe someone in the Eclipse Group has figured that
out
> > also.
>
>
> > Ted Stockwell
> > Technical Director
> > RPC Software
>
> Heres the real issue. If you use the RCP you are forced to use the L&F
> that the RCP imposes. If you happen to like it then good, but if not then
> you are stuck.
> Sounds to me like you should vote for the bug that asks for complete
> control over the RCP UI, I.e being able to subclass all the major UI
pieces
>
>
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| Re: New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #201184 is a reply to message #200672] |
Tue, 24 February 2004 18:49 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: PeterMayne.ap.spherion.com
Ed Burnette wrote:
> [ various bugs ]
So many bugs...
I'm torn. If it turns out that a sufficient number of people want a L&F
with curvy bits and flourescent colours, then fine, as long as a native
platform L&F is there as well.
On the other hand, if nobody wants the new L&F, then the effort put into
the new L&F (including ongoing maintenance of two L&Fs) is wasted, when
it could have gone into something useful like code folding.
As as Windows goes, Microsoft seems to spend a lot on usability. Does
Eclipse (or anyone) have any evidence to demonstrate that being
inconsistent with the native Windows L&F improves usability?
PJDM
--
Peter Mayne
Spherion Technology Solutions
Canberra, ACT, Australia
"Dude, where's my IDE?"
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| Re: New Look vs RCP vs IDE [message #202562 is a reply to message #201369] |
Thu, 26 February 2004 16:41 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: PeterMayne.ap.spherion.com
ted stockwell wrote:
> "Peter Mayne" wrote in message news:c1gnoj$nvq$1@eclipse.org...
>
>>As as Windows goes, Microsoft seems to spend a lot on usability. Does
>>Eclipse (or anyone) have any evidence to demonstrate that being
>>inconsistent with the native Windows L&F improves usability?
>
> Well, I have copies of Microsoft Money and Encarta on my home machines.
> Those applications totally jettisoned the Windows L&F. I assume that
> Microsoft had good reason for doing so, therefore I take that as evidence
> that the native Windows L&F can be improved upon as far as usability (or at
> least a user's *perception* of how 'friendly' or 'usable' an application
> is).
And I recall that the totally different L&f made Encarta annoying to
use, because it was different to everything else. Maybe they did it
because Encarta is aimed at a specific audience, or because there are
less options to clutter up the screen, but if it is more usable, why
doesn't the rest of Windows look like Encarta, not to mention other
Windows applications?
PJDM
--
Peter Mayne
Spherion Technology Solutions
Canberra, ACT, Australia
"Dude, where's my IDE?"
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