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| Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #127858] |
Thu, 11 September 2003 20:55  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: NmlueckO.SlueckPdataAsystemsM.com
Java has grown SO FAST that as I log into this NNTP server for the first time this evening, I scarcely can guess what most of the acronyms mean...
I'm looking at picking Java as the language to build a new large application in, and have heard Eclipse will be the IDE to pick. Most of the application will be non-GUI but there will be some GUI
pieces - admin tools to interface to the system, etc... I understand Eclipse does not have a GUI development tool at this time such as the Borland way of "Right click on the button, pick a method to
add code to, etc..." If this is the case, what other tools are suggested? Cross platform is quite critical, OK very - Win32 and Linux will be our platforms and both need to run the admin tools. Admin
tools shall run as a Java application (fat client) talking to a servlet server (WebSphere, TomCat, ...???) Very rich tree controls, menues, data grids, etc... required. For lack of a more universal
example - code up Windows Explorer in Java would be a good example.
TIA for suggestions!
--
Michael Lueck
Lueck Data Systems
Remove the upper case letters NOSPAM to contact me directly.
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #127884 is a reply to message #127858] |
Thu, 11 September 2003 22:08  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: kaffiene.xtra.NOcoSPAM.nzPLEASE
Michael Lueck wrote:
> Java has grown SO FAST that as I log into this NNTP server for the first
> time this evening, I scarcely can guess what most of the acronyms mean...
>
> I'm looking at picking Java as the language to build a new large
> application in, and have heard Eclipse will be the IDE to pick. Most of
> the application will be non-GUI but there will be some GUI pieces -
> admin tools to interface to the system, etc... I understand Eclipse does
> not have a GUI development tool at this time such as the Borland way of
> "Right click on the button, pick a method to add code to, etc..." If
> this is the case, what other tools are suggested? Cross platform is
> quite critical, OK very - Win32 and Linux will be our platforms and both
> need to run the admin tools. Admin tools shall run as a Java application
> (fat client) talking to a servlet server (WebSphere, TomCat, ...???)
> Very rich tree controls, menues, data grids, etc... required. For lack
> of a more universal example - code up Windows Explorer in Java would be
> a good example.
>
> TIA for suggestions!
As someone who has used both the click and drag GUI builders and the
alternative approach of just coding it directly in Java, I'd have to say
I prefer the latter approach. Code generated by builders tends to be
brittle.
In other words, I wouldn't use a GUI builder at all.
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #128090 is a reply to message #127858] |
Fri, 12 September 2003 07:35 |
| Eclipse User |
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Michael Lueck schrieb:
> Java has grown SO FAST that as I log into this NNTP server for the first
> time this evening, I scarcely can guess what most of the acronyms mean...
>
> I'm looking at picking Java as the language to build a new large
> application in, and have heard Eclipse will be the IDE to pick. Most of
> the application will be non-GUI but there will be some GUI pieces -
> admin tools to interface to the system, etc... I understand Eclipse does
> not have a GUI development tool at this time such as the Borland way of
> "Right click on the button, pick a method to add code to, etc..." If
> this is the case, what other tools are suggested? Cross platform is
> quite critical, OK very - Win32 and Linux will be our platforms and both
> need to run the admin tools. Admin tools shall run as a Java application
> (fat client) talking to a servlet server (WebSphere, TomCat, ...???)
> Very rich tree controls, menues, data grids, etc... required. For lack
> of a more universal example - code up Windows Explorer in Java would be
> a good example.
>
> TIA for suggestions!
Hi Michael,
Well there is a SWT GUI development tool called
Advanced Eclipse SWT Designer (http://www.swt-designer.com).
It was written by Konstantin Scheglov. Maybe there are other tools too
but if you want a GUI tool you could take a look at that - maybe it is
useful in your purpose.
Ralf
BTW: You mentioned plattform independence. Although SWT is plattform
independent it is plattform dependent. This sounds a bit confusing but
that is because of it uses native ressources. So there are several ports
of SWT and you should test your app for correctness before porting your
app from Win32 to Linux.
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #128229 is a reply to message #127884] |
Fri, 12 September 2003 10:41 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eric.rizzo.jibeinc.com
Peter wrote:
> As someone who has used both the click and drag GUI builders and the
> alternative approach of just coding it directly in Java, I'd have to say
> I prefer the latter approach. Code generated by builders tends to be
> brittle.
>
> In other words, I wouldn't use a GUI builder at all.
I mostly agree, although I think GUI building tools are useful for
getting the organization and layout just the way you want it, visually,
and then replicating the layout structure when code the actual
application. It is just easier to try out different layouts with a GUI
tool than the coding, running, adjusting, repeat... loop.
As for what GUI library to use in your app, the Java standard is Swing,
which is very powerful but has a steep learning curve. Eclipse's
alternative is SWT + JFace, but it also has a learning curve and, AFAIK,
SWT is a standalone library but is much more limited than Swing - JFace
adds a lot of application-level stuff, but is not standalone (IOW, its
tied to the Eclipse platform). I don't know what is involved in using
JFace for an application that is not based on Eclipse itself.
HTH,
Eric
--
Eric Rizzo
Software Architect
Jibe, Inc.
http://www.jibeinc.com
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #128289 is a reply to message #128090] |
Fri, 12 September 2003 11:17 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: palistra.us.ibm.com
You might also want to tke a look at JavaServer Faces, it seems to be
gaining some momentum.
Ralf Koban wrote:
> Michael Lueck schrieb:
>
>> Java has grown SO FAST that as I log into this NNTP server for the
>> first time this evening, I scarcely can guess what most of the
>> acronyms mean...
>>
>> I'm looking at picking Java as the language to build a new large
>> application in, and have heard Eclipse will be the IDE to pick. Most
>> of the application will be non-GUI but there will be some GUI pieces -
>> admin tools to interface to the system, etc... I understand Eclipse
>> does not have a GUI development tool at this time such as the Borland
>> way of "Right click on the button, pick a method to add code to,
>> etc..." If this is the case, what other tools are suggested? Cross
>> platform is quite critical, OK very - Win32 and Linux will be our
>> platforms and both need to run the admin tools. Admin tools shall run
>> as a Java application (fat client) talking to a servlet server
>> (WebSphere, TomCat, ...???) Very rich tree controls, menues, data
>> grids, etc... required. For lack of a more universal example - code up
>> Windows Explorer in Java would be a good example.
>>
>> TIA for suggestions!
>
>
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Well there is a SWT GUI development tool called
> Advanced Eclipse SWT Designer (http://www.swt-designer.com).
>
> It was written by Konstantin Scheglov. Maybe there are other tools too
> but if you want a GUI tool you could take a look at that - maybe it is
> useful in your purpose.
>
> Ralf
>
> BTW: You mentioned plattform independence. Although SWT is plattform
> independent it is plattform dependent. This sounds a bit confusing but
> that is because of it uses native ressources. So there are several ports
> of SWT and you should test your app for correctness before porting your
> app from Win32 to Linux.
>
--
Jim Palistrant
IBM Worldwide Technical Consultant - WebSphere Development Tools
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #128393 is a reply to message #128229] |
Fri, 12 September 2003 12:31 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: Kevin.clark.accessbc.com.nospam
Eric,
JFace can be used stand-alone. I've coded a few stand-alone JFace Wizards.
Michael,
The suggestions for GUI building are good ones, you can follow other
peoples advice for that. I think you may benefit from a better
understanding of Swing vs. SWT though.
IBM developed its own GUI widgets called the Standard Widget Toolkit
(SWT). These widgets actually use c code to interface with your platforms
native widgets. In other words, for the first time on Java, when you
program a button in windows, it will look like a windows button. That same
button, if ported to Linux GTK, will look like the Linux GTK button. The
catch is, you have to provide the correct SWT JAR file and SWT .dll/.so
file for the platform you are developing it for. This is because the
native widgets differ from one system to another. Really though, this is
only a technicality, and you don't actually have to customize your code
for each different platform. Essentially, it is portable!
SWT Pros:
- Very fast GUI widgets
- Great layout managers
SWT Cons:
- A little extra platform dependent set up required
- All GUI builders are in a fairly young stage
Swing runs ontop of the JVM. Making it completely platform independent.
Therefore, it has its own set of widgets. And those widgets will look
exactly the same on Linux as they will on Windows. As someone has already
mentioned though, it's got a pretty steep learning curve.
Swing Pros:
- Completely portable.
- Well documented (it's been the Java standard for some time now).
Swing Cons:
- Slow... Really slow.
- Confusing layout managers
IMHO SWT rocks any other Java widget toolkit I've ever seen. Throw in some
application level JFace, and you've got a really decent GUI that wasn't
too difficult to code. There's some good articles in the articles section
on the Eclipse.org page.
Hope this helps!
Kevin
Eric Rizzo wrote:
> Peter wrote:
> > As someone who has used both the click and drag GUI builders and the
> > alternative approach of just coding it directly in Java, I'd have to say
> > I prefer the latter approach. Code generated by builders tends to be
> > brittle.
> >
> > In other words, I wouldn't use a GUI builder at all.
> I mostly agree, although I think GUI building tools are useful for
> getting the organization and layout just the way you want it, visually,
> and then replicating the layout structure when code the actual
> application. It is just easier to try out different layouts with a GUI
> tool than the coding, running, adjusting, repeat... loop.
> As for what GUI library to use in your app, the Java standard is Swing,
> which is very powerful but has a steep learning curve. Eclipse's
> alternative is SWT + JFace, but it also has a learning curve and, AFAIK,
> SWT is a standalone library but is much more limited than Swing - JFace
> adds a lot of application-level stuff, but is not standalone (IOW, its
> tied to the Eclipse platform). I don't know what is involved in using
> JFace for an application that is not based on Eclipse itself.
> HTH,
> Eric
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #128889 is a reply to message #128629] |
Sat, 13 September 2003 16:17 |
| Eclipse User |
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Michael Lueck wrote:
> OK, I like the speed topic on SWT. Opening up a tree with thousands of
> objects will populate faster that way.
>
> Since Eclipse uses SWT, and since Eclipse is on Win32 and Linux, is
> there any cross platform issues left to worry about?
>
> Thanks for the great thoughts all!
>
Your GUI will look different on both platforms. I believe the common
things will work the same on both Linux and Windows, but there are
platform specific issues because the underlying GUI library is different.
With Swing you will have greater consistency across platforms. I think
that on Windows, most people prefer the Windows native look and feel
(which you get with SWT, and only an emulation of it with Swing). I have
no idea what look and feel is more popular on Linux.
Also, SWT is very nice technology, but it is not as mature as Swing. If
the piece of GUI you develop is a large and critical part of your
application - choose Swing. It will be easier for your to learn it and
get help.
If you can afford yourself to experiment with SWT and have the resources
to develop/contribute (or live without) the missing pieces, I'm sure you
are going to enjoy your experiment.
Therefore, I believe your choice depends on how comfortable you feel
with experimenting with new (and promising) technology.
Genady
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #128955 is a reply to message #127884] |
Sat, 13 September 2003 22:54 |
| Eclipse User |
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I disagree. If you know SWT well, write by hand.
If you have never seen any SWT code. Go with "SWT designer".
I tried it out, and apart from its rough edges, it takes almost
all the guess-work out of the prototyping of a layout, what
widgets are available, what their parameters are, etc. etc.
After a couple of years playing with SWT, I sometimes still
find it very difficult to get the layout exactly the way I want it.
I can no longer remember how hard it must have been the
first time I had a look at it :-)
[I am not involved in the "SWT Designer" project - just an admirer]
Chris
"Peter" <kaffiene@xtra.NOcoSPAM.nzPLEASE> wrote in message
news:bjra13$jep$1@eclipse.org...
> Michael Lueck wrote:
>
> As someone who has used both the click and drag GUI builders and the
> alternative approach of just coding it directly in Java, I'd have to say
> I prefer the latter approach. Code generated by builders tends to be
> brittle.
>
> In other words, I wouldn't use a GUI builder at all.
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #128967 is a reply to message #128955] |
Sat, 13 September 2003 23:32 |
| Eclipse User |
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The argument that SWT is a lot faster than Swing is not exactly accurate.
SWT is still young, as some have said so some components like tables/trees
are not exactly as fast as Swing is in regards to large data sets and
scrolling and such. At least, this is what I have read.
Also, as far as I know, Swing is built up by extending various awt
components. Some awt components are similar to swing in that they have
native components to the OS underlying. Where Swing differs is they "draw"
their own look and feel on top of these components. Actually it may be that
there are only a few native components used now in Swing, the container of
the main window being one of them no doubt (JFrame). However, Swing has
steadily gotten faster.
Here is what I can tell you. I run Eclipse on a 1.8Ghz PIV with 768MB RAM
and it is smooth. I ran Forte and it was dog slow. Fault of Swing? I say not
because I have also seen our own application which uses very large tables
run silky smooth with Swing! So part of the slowness of Swing is those that
use it's API's incorrectly or poorly. Regardless, Eclipse runs VERY slow on
my Mac with 333Mhz G3, 300MB ram, and OSX 10.2. I can accept this, it is not
a very fast machine. On my Linux box, a PIII 800Mhz, 256MB ram (Red hat 9)
it runs pretty decent, but not as good as my Win2K Pro box with AMD 1.2Ghz
and 650MB RAM. However, again I have to say that my work clients, all done
in fat client Swing, run very smooth even on my PIII 800Mhz linux box, so
once again I don't believe that Swing is all that much slower.
I will say that SWT does have the speed advantage, but not by much in most
cases. There is another Java GUI, I forget the name of it, but it is VERY
small in size, has a limited set of widgets, but is very fast in drawing. It
may be worth a look. This library I think draws on both J2ME and J2SE.
"Chris Laffra" <Chris_Laffra@oti.com> wrote in message
news:bk0l73$s4e$1@eclipse.org...
> I disagree. If you know SWT well, write by hand.
>
> If you have never seen any SWT code. Go with "SWT designer".
> I tried it out, and apart from its rough edges, it takes almost
> all the guess-work out of the prototyping of a layout, what
> widgets are available, what their parameters are, etc. etc.
>
> After a couple of years playing with SWT, I sometimes still
> find it very difficult to get the layout exactly the way I want it.
> I can no longer remember how hard it must have been the
> first time I had a look at it :-)
>
> [I am not involved in the "SWT Designer" project - just an admirer]
>
> Chris
>
> "Peter" <kaffiene@xtra.NOcoSPAM.nzPLEASE> wrote in message
> news:bjra13$jep$1@eclipse.org...
> > Michael Lueck wrote:
> >
> > As someone who has used both the click and drag GUI builders and the
> > alternative approach of just coding it directly in Java, I'd have to say
> > I prefer the latter approach. Code generated by builders tends to be
> > brittle.
> >
> > In other words, I wouldn't use a GUI builder at all.
>
>
>
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| Re: Eclipse Q&A for a Team Leader [message #129384 is a reply to message #128967] |
Mon, 15 September 2003 11:09 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eric.rizzo.jibeinc.com
Kevin wrote:
> The argument that SWT is a lot faster than Swing is not exactly accurate.
[snip]
+1. I agree very strongly that most performance problems in apps based
on Swing are *not* easily faulted to Swing itself. Most of the time it
is the inexperience or inattention to detail of the developer coupled
with the complexity of Swing (which makes it difficult & time consuming
to get really good at). There are many examples of well-performing Swing
apps, but it is easy to write a poor one.
HTH,
Eric
--
Eric Rizzo
Software Architect
Jibe, Inc.
http://www.jibeinc.com
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