Home » Language IDEs » ServerTools (WTP) » Summary of eclipseCON BoF, 2004-02-04
| Summary of eclipseCON BoF, 2004-02-04 [message #17279] |
Thu, 05 February 2004 11:55  |
Eclipse User |
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This note adds further detail to Lawrence Mandel's note.
The BoF was very well attended. I estimate 40-50 people attended, half
of whom had strong opinions, with the other half attending for information.
The session had a great start by following the HP beer and pizza mixer.
HP generously left the beer and pizza for our group. Thx HP!
We started with position statements addressing Vision, Scope, Structure,
Schedule, and Leadership by the following speakers:
Arthur Ryman, IBM, WebSphere Studio
Erich Gamma, IBM, JDT
Ed Burnette, SAS Institute, author of Eclipse in Action
Christophe Ney, INRIA/ObjectWeb, JONAS/JOPE
Naci Dai, eteration, Lomboz
Jochen Krause, Innoopract, W4T
Todd Williams, genuitec, myEclipse
There was consensus that eclipse should be extended to embrace Web
development. Some people felt the scope should be restricted to J2EE
while others wanted a more inclusive approach for technologies like PHP.
Note that in keynote address by Michael Tieman of Redhat, the point was
made that a key differentiator between eclipse and NetBeans was that
eclipse was multilanguage (Java, C, C++, COBOL, ...) while NetBeans was
Java only. This suggests that the project should provide a home for all
open Web technologies.
There was also discussion about the primary target audience: Web
developers or tools developers. The conclusion was that both are
necessary. In order to create a great tool platform we must evolve the
API by actually creating tools. This was the JDT experience.
The vision for the project is that Web artifacts become first class
objects and that eclipse provide an orthogonal enviroment where any
function can be applied to any artifact. For example, it must be
possible to run, and debug Web components (JSP, HTML, servlets, etc), to
refactor them (e.g. XML, JSP, J2EE deployment descriptors), to have code
assist, quick fixes, etc. in a uniform way.
Concerning leadership, Christophe announced that ObjectWeb is eager to
step up to this role and will make a formal proposal asap.
Concerning schedule, the majority wanted the project to start quickly
and show some real progress.
-- Arthur
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| Re: Summary of eclipseCON BoF, 2004-02-04 [message #17332 is a reply to message #17279] |
Fri, 06 February 2004 03:44  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: if.you.want.to.email.visit.joshrehman.org
Arthur Ryman <ryman@ca.ibm.com> wrote in news:bvtsek$23l$1@eclipse.org:
> This note adds further detail to Lawrence Mandel's note.
>
> The BoF was very well attended. I estimate 40-50 people attended, half
> of whom had strong opinions, with the other half attending for
> information.
I was unable to attend but have been following this development closely.
> Arthur Ryman, IBM, WebSphere Studio
> Erich Gamma, IBM, JDT
> Ed Burnette, SAS Institute, author of Eclipse in Action
> Christophe Ney, INRIA/ObjectWeb, JONAS/JOPE
> Naci Dai, eteration, Lomboz
> Jochen Krause, Innoopract, W4T
> Todd Williams, genuitec, myEclipse
An excellent group; now I really wish I had been there!
> There was consensus that eclipse should be extended to embrace Web
> development. Some people felt the scope should be restricted to J2EE
> while others wanted a more inclusive approach for technologies like
> PHP. Note that in keynote address by Michael Tieman of Redhat, the
> point was made that a key differentiator between eclipse and NetBeans
> was that eclipse was multilanguage (Java, C, C++, COBOL, ...) while
> NetBeans was Java only. This suggests that the project should provide
> a home for all open Web technologies.
This is very a tall order. I work with j2ee and alongside me are mod_perl
+ template toolkit folks and although the technology is extremely
similiar looking, the devils are in the details. Making generalizations
broad enough to support such a wide range of technology is risky
business. I still wonder that Eclipse dodged the bullet of over
engineering the platform, and I'm concerned that the bullet wouldn't be
dodged twice.
> There was also discussion about the primary target audience: Web
> developers or tools developers. The conclusion was that both are
> necessary. In order to create a great tool platform we must evolve the
> API by actually creating tools. This was the JDT experience.
My impression is that Eclipse has been so wonderful because of a very
solid foundation of work, and a careful, incremental addition of
features. In other words, I agree with the idea of a balanced approach.
> The vision for the project is that Web artifacts become first class
> objects and that eclipse provide an orthogonal enviroment where any
> function can be applied to any artifact. For example, it must be
> possible to run, and debug Web components (JSP, HTML, servlets, etc),
> to refactor them (e.g. XML, JSP, J2EE deployment descriptors), to have
> code assist, quick fixes, etc. in a uniform way.
This sounds great, and begs the question, "what is the proper
generalization of a web enabled application?" I'm not sure if there is
one. Certainly all such apps require a container in which to run, and
have superficially similiar attributes such as HTML and templating
languages. But it seems to me that the manner in which artifacts relate
to one another and are interpreted are highly dependant on the technology
in use. You mention XML and certainly it, at least, serves as the
ultimate cameleon artifact!
In truth I'm just hungering to hear more about how folks plan to begin
laying the foundation for such broad support for web development. I think
a good place to start would be to solicit comments from plugin authors -
at least one post on this group had some good comments about some of the
things he would have liked (such as more detailed access to xml syntax
structure). Then there is analysis of other tools, even commercial ones
like Web Sphere. :)
This is an exciting project, and with such an auspicious group working on
it I'm sure it will be successful. If and when I am in a position to
contribute I will do so.
Thanks,
Josh Rehman
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