Home » Language IDEs » ServerTools (WTP) » installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #153639 is a reply to message #153624] |
Sun, 25 December 2005 05:43   |
 David Williams
Messages: 722
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:23:34 -0500, Noel Bush <noel@aitools.org> wrote:
> I do not see WTP 1.0 (or 0.7 anymore, for that matter) under the
> Eclipse.org main update site in the Update Manager. Is this because
> things are just in transition, or is it possibly something wrong with =
my
> config?
>
> Thanks....
>
Just transition, the update manager site for WTP 1.0 won't be ready till=
the first week in January ...
we have some details to work out, and most of the team involved is on ho=
liday.
But, since you are interested in using update manager, perhaps you (or o=
thers) wouldn't mind answering some
questions about it -- to help us decide some finer points of future rele=
aes.
What is it you like about update manager, as opposed to just downloading=
the zips and installing those?
More precision in what you install? Faster downloads?
Do you and your organization just update on Releases? Or, if it was avai=
lable, would you use update on Milestones?
Just curious to begin some dialog and hear from users what they want.
Thanks,
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #153654 is a reply to message #153639] |
Sun, 25 December 2005 12:13 |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: usenet-2005.webmounty.de
David Williams wrote:
> But, since you are interested in using update manager, perhaps you (or
> others) wouldn't mind answering some
> questions about it -- to help us decide some finer points of future
> releaes.
>
> What is it you like about update manager, as opposed to just downloading
> the zips and installing those?
> More precision in what you install? Faster downloads?
>
What I like about the update manager is the easy and convenient way to
install updates. If I download zip, I have to remember, where to get
them, which packages I actually need. If I use the manager I only have
to tell him to look for new updates - and if they are bugfixes or
features I would really like to use, to install them. I only need to
setup the location, where to find them, once.
Another problem with zips is the place where to unpack them. Some start
with the eclipse directory, others must be unzipped directly in the
plugins directory - so I have to open them before installing to make
sure that they will be installed correctly. With the manager I don't
have to do this step.
> Do you and your organization just update on Releases? Or, if it was
> available, would you use update on Milestones?
No, I only update on Releases (and their bug fixes of course) since I
want to have the most stable environment currently available for my
work. I loose enough time hunting my own bugs down already ;-). Of
course having them easily available if I want to fool around with them
isn't a bad idea either.
>
> Just curious to begin some dialog and hear from users what they want.
>
> Thanks
> ,
IB
--
Ingo Buescher <usenet-2005@webmounty.de>
"We should not be building surveillance technology into standards.
Law enforcement was not supposed to be easy. Where it is easy, it's
called a police state." -- Jeff Schiller of MIT
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #153662 is a reply to message #153639] |
Sun, 25 December 2005 20:42 |
Noel Bush
Messages: 38
Registered: July 2009 |
Member |
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David Williams wrote:
> But, since you are interested in using update manager, perhaps you (or
> others) wouldn't mind answering some
> questions about it -- to help us decide some finer points of future
> releaes.
>
> What is it you like about update manager, as opposed to just downloading
> the zips and installing those?
> More precision in what you install? Faster downloads?
When I use the Update Manager, I feel that there's a much bigger chance
that different components are going to get installed in the "right way",
and that I don't have to care about the details of that "right way".
I *really* *dislike* the way Eclipse packages are provided in zip files
-- I dislike the fact that I have to be sure to extract them in just the
right directory location, and I dislike the feeling that I may be
overwriting something else. I also dislike the fact that I have to
constantly re-install Eclipse and other components that I use when I
update something major, for fear that (otherwise) something undesirable
is getting left around by previous installs.
I recognize that some of my impressions come from a lack of knowledge
about the internals of Eclipse. But I'm strictly an Eclipse user, not
an Eclipse developer. I think that my concerns, and several others, are
common issues of configuration management, and I believe that this is
what systems like RPM were set up to handle. Long gone are the days
when it made any sense at all to deal with dependencies and
installation/cleanup tasks by hand.
I am interested in developing my app, not mucking around with the
installation details of Eclipse. At the same time, I'm interested in
using very recent versions of Eclipse and Eclipse components. I think
that if use of the Update Manager were mandatory for all projects (at
least major ones) it would really cut down on a lot of needless
headaches, and encourage more people to use Milestones, and hence
generate more feedback to uncover problems sooner.
So I am pleased that Eclipse has the Update Manager capability, but not
so impressed by the low emphasis placed on it. From my point of view,
Update Manager should become the primary means of maintaining one's
Eclipse installation.
> Do you and your organization just update on Releases? Or, if it was
> available, would you use update on Milestones?
I would definitely use the Update Manager for Milestones if this were
available. I would love to be able to avoid the zipfile-based install
process if at all possible.
> Just curious to begin some dialog and hear from users what they want.
>
> Thanks,
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #153670 is a reply to message #153639] |
Mon, 26 December 2005 00:14 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: thisisnot.mymail.com
>
> But, since you are interested in using update manager, perhaps you (or
> others) wouldn't mind answering some
> questions about it -- to help us decide some finer points of future
> releaes.
>
> What is it you like about update manager, as opposed to just downloading
> the zips and installing those?
> More precision in what you install? Faster downloads?
>
> Do you and your organization just update on Releases? Or, if it was
> available, would you use update on Milestones?
>
> Just curious to begin some dialog and hear from users what they want.
>
> Thanks,
I have a somewhat love/hate relationship with eclipse/updates. The love
part comes from the fact that it's a really nice feature to be able to
install plugins and to find them without getting out of eclipse. However
I do have objections how you can very quickly end up with unusable
eclipse. First of all I don't like the fact that I can't uninstall a
extension completely. Then, I've noticed after update the old versions
remain disabled or in some kind of strange state, I understand that
removing these files could bring instability too but leave me some
options here like removing packages/meta-packages/sub-packages. Perhaps
I've ended up in this kind of state because I started from the
all-in-one wtp 0.7 that isn't a update-site-plugin so updating it didn't
clean up well files and folders.
This said I understand that your extension model is complex and you
probably have a bunch of use cases that could brake might you change
something so I don't envy the eclipse developers.
It would be interesting what kind of structural propositions could you
suggest to bring better robustness, however this gets outside the scope
of this newsgroup.
Cheers
Srgjan
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #154008 is a reply to message #153639] |
Wed, 28 December 2005 04:27 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: jazeltine.sbcglobal.net
"David Williams" <david_williams@us.ibm.com> wrote in
news:op.s2brizikac05ss@dmw2t23.raleigh.ibm.com:
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:23:34 -0500, Noel Bush <noel@aitools.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I do not see WTP 1.0 (or 0.7 anymore, for that matter) under the
>> Eclipse.org main update site in the Update Manager. Is this because
>> things are just in transition, or is it possibly something wrong with
> my
>> config?
>>
>> Thanks....
>>
>
> Just transition, the update manager site for WTP 1.0 won't be ready
> till the first week in January ... we have some details to work out,
> and most of the team involved is on holiday.
>
> But, since you are interested in using update manager, perhaps you (or
> others) wouldn't mind answering some questions about it -- to help us
> decide some finer points of future releaes.
>
> What is it you like about update manager, as opposed to just
> downloading the zips and installing those? More precision in what you
> install? Faster downloads?
>
> Do you and your organization just update on Releases? Or, if it was
> available, would you use update on Milestones?
>
> Just curious to begin some dialog and hear from users what they want.
>
> Thanks,
The thing I like most about the update manager is that it works most of
the time.
I do not know how many times I have tried to install things the "usual"
way, only to have them not work. The plugin and feature directories are
correctly populated, but the new plugin does not work. Starting eclipse
with -clean does not help.
At least when using the update manager, it seems to get things right so
that what you have chosen works.
Jim
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #154122 is a reply to message #153639] |
Thu, 29 December 2005 08:17 |
Max Rydahl Andersen
Messages: 233
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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If all eclipse vendors would realize how important it is to distinguish
there
important user targeted releases (including milestone releases) between
each
other with proper version number differences then updatemanager is
definitly the
ultimate way of easy installation and update.
I would love if all projects in eclipse would do that so vendors could use
them without
worrying about users not being able to update the related plugins with
proper mechanisms.
/max
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:23:34 -0500, Noel Bush <noel@aitools.org> wrote:
>
>> I do not see WTP 1.0 (or 0.7 anymore, for that matter) under the
>> Eclipse.org main update site in the Update Manager. Is this because
>> things are just in transition, or is it possibly something wrong with my
>> config?
>>
>> Thanks....
>>
>
> Just transition, the update manager site for WTP 1.0 won't be ready till
> the first week in January ...
> we have some details to work out, and most of the team involved is on
> holiday.
>
> But, since you are interested in using update manager, perhaps you (or
> others) wouldn't mind answering some
> questions about it -- to help us decide some finer points of future
> releaes.
>
> What is it you like about update manager, as opposed to just downloading
> the zips and installing those?
> More precision in what you install? Faster downloads?
>
> Do you and your organization just update on Releases? Or, if it was
> available, would you use update on Milestones?
>
> Just curious to begin some dialog and hear from users what they want.
>
> Thanks,
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #154535 is a reply to message #153639] |
Tue, 03 January 2006 13:38 |
Torsten Schlabach
Messages: 25
Registered: July 2009 |
Junior Member |
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A lot of what I think has been more or less said, but I would like to
point out that one of the most valuable pieces of the update manager is
the "Select Required" button. I think this fits to what some have said:
They unzip downloaded plugins and they don't work. This is often the case
when dependencies are missing and this does not happen when using the
update manager.
A quite simple scenario to explain this is indeed WTP.
Going from a freshly unpacked Eclipse SDK to one that has WTP enabled is a
no-brainer using the update manager but will give you a tours of the
Eclipse internals when trying to do that manually.
Regarding the question if you are "just a user" of Eclipse or not: Magic
is always good as long as it works. In other words, I prefer to understand
the internals of what I use to be sure I have a chance to fix it if
something went wrong. Modern systems are not yet that sophisticated that
this would not happen.
Any even if you are "just a user" of Eclipse you need to reckon that the
Eclipse workbench when used for a dynamic web project with WTP for example
is a quite complex beast that you have to tame, even as "only a user".
This is not a WYSIWYG word processor! (Though fully understanding and
using the complex features of todays word processors take some training
and a lot of understand as well.)
So to give some concrete answers to your concrete questions from my
perspective:
- I would definitely like to be able to install milestones through the
update manager. Maybe it would just make sense to provide a switch that
milestones can be turned on or off. So people who want to live on stable,
released components can make sure they are not bothered with milestone
releases. But sometimes you just need them because they have the feature
you want and they are stable enough. And I guess you want people to
actually use the milestone releases to have as many users as possible find
the last bugs, don't you?
- One of the issues with ZIP files is those which have paths starting with
eclipse. I often keep several installations of Eclipse around names
eclipse.old, eclipse.testsomething and the like. I cannot easily unzip a
plugin with pathes staring with eclipse into one of my various
installations. Even worse, the plugin / feature might end up in the wrong
one.
What I was searching for (maybe I just did not find it) was some Eclipse
user documentation on what projects versus features versus plugins are.
Sometimes it is not really obvious why something is either a feature or a
plugin and how they relate.
It might (hopefully) be somewhere in the developers documenatation, but as
a user you usually don't browse that.
Regards,
Torsten
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #154756 is a reply to message #153624] |
Wed, 04 January 2006 11:21 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: mwiles.ct.bbd.co.za
It is definitely preferred to use the update manager to install plugins, for the simple reason that it allows for management of plugins (disable/update etc).
In order to facilitate the use of the update manager for the installation of all plugins I would like to receieve an archive of a plugin _as if_ it is an update site - or some way to make a plugin available as an update site. In other words, a zip of the contents of the update site. I would then be able to unpack the zip and place it on a local machine (on the lan) and pull the plugin off the local site. That way I can not only get around the fact that most plugins are not offered via an update site.
This would be useful for a number of reasons.
It would greatly speed up the update process - two machines would not have to pull the same content. Once developer A has downloaded and installed, developer B can easily install that plugin.
Development shops be they large or small which have standardised on an eclipse configuration, could manage and distribute the package of plugins they're using. For example, if a software house were to standardise on an eclipse configuration, say eclipse base plus X plugins, They would then create a local update site which contains all the necessary plugins and each developer then goes via the update manager, inserts the update site and pulls the lot. Updates are then also seemlessly handled. Whenever a new developer comes on stream, they install eclipse, and point the update manager at the local update site and they're up and running.
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| Re: installing WTP 1.0 from Eclipse update manager [message #154840 is a reply to message #153639] |
Thu, 05 January 2006 00:39 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: nospam.nospam.no
Hi David Williams,
You asked for input:
Personally, I regard plugins that are distributed as ZIP files instead of
using updatemanager as second-rate ! I useally avoid them if I can. For WTP,
I am not going to upgrade from 0.7 before it is released using the update
manager.
Other than that, the only serious problem with WTP is that you don't support
servers like JBoss 4.0 (the JBoss version that you do support is VERY old).
Cheers,
Morten
"David Williams" <david_williams@us.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:op.s2brizikac05ss@dmw2t23.raleigh.ibm.com...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:23:34 -0500, Noel Bush <noel@aitools.org> wrote:
> I do not see WTP 1.0 (or 0.7 anymore, for that matter) under the
> Eclipse.org main update site in the Update Manager. Is this because
> things are just in transition, or is it possibly something wrong with my
> config?
>
> Thanks....
>
Just transition, the update manager site for WTP 1.0 won't be ready till the
first week in January ...
we have some details to work out, and most of the team involved is on
holiday.
But, since you are interested in using update manager, perhaps you (or
others) wouldn't mind answering some
questions about it -- to help us decide some finer points of future releaes.
What is it you like about update manager, as opposed to just downloading the
zips and installing those?
More precision in what you install? Faster downloads?
Do you and your organization just update on Releases? Or, if it was
available, would you use update on Milestones?
Just curious to begin some dialog and hear from users what they want.
Thanks,
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