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| Using External Build Structure [message #118534] |
Fri, 18 November 2005 19:27  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: matt.uktrainsim.com
Hi Folks,
I'm very much a newbie when it comes to Eclipse, currently entrenched
over 'there' with Netbeans for numerous reasons.
I like the look of Eclipse these days, been keeping an eye on it for
ages and would like to start using it in 'anger' to see how I get on, so
far stumbled on a major hurdle...
I've developed a build process that is entirely IDE independant for my
company, using ANT. Everything is built such that the code can be
built, tested and run on any platform using the complex ant build
scripts, the complex interdependencies both on 3rd party jars and 1st
party projects are all managed by my own property files making it
extremely easy for me to manage in our environment.
Currently, we can use the Netbeans 'Free Form Project' integration to
use this set-up and it works quite well, albeit with some limitations it
is 100% usable, i've built an ant target that will auto generate the
relevant netbeans 'project.xml' such that all the source files, test
files etc all show up, relevant buttons and commands (e.g. compile, run,
debug) all point to the correct ant targets and everything works quite
well - including integrated IDE debugging and so forth, for both web
apps and regular apps.
Question is... how to do this in Eclipse...
I should be clear that my initial foray in to Eclipse has been with a 1
month trial of MyEclipseIDE and i'll be up front and say that even then
that was only with a couple of days effort, so I'm perfectly happy to be
told that i've missed something obvious and will apologise if that's the
case :)
As far as I can see:
I can create an ANT build file based on an Eclipse project.
I can interpret an ANT build file to create an Eclipse project (though
it doesn't work without build scripts because of their complexity).
I can load the ANT build script in and call various targets manually in
the ANT window.
What I can't seem to do is just get Eclipse to let go of its own project
structure and/or let me augment where things are.
For example, in the Netbeans project.xml I can say:
"Compile" means run target "compile_debug"
"Debug" means run target "nb-debug"
source code can be found in ${project.home}/src
the following libs are used x.jar;y.jar
test code is in ${project.home}/test
web pages are in ${project.home}/web
I don't need the IDE to have a 'live' integration with the ANT
environment, I'm quite happy to do as I've done with Netbeans and have a
template driven process that auto-generates the Eclipse projects out of
the build system, equally if the developer wants to make changes to
class path and so forth I am comfortable with getting them to alter the
build system and re-export the config rather than using Eclipse and some
how expecting that to update the build system automatically. For
Netbeans i'm looking at writing a plug-in to manage much of this more
smoothly since it's obviously quite bespoke, but what it does out of the
box is perfectly suitable for my team to work.
I guess the core principle of the build system is that *it* rules the
roost, the IDE's are tools to help write code for the build system to
manage, build and maintain but ultimately the IDE's are subordinate to
what's in the build system. Key reasons for this are that I do not want
to be locked in to a particular IDE - if I can get Eclipse working it
means our developers can use either very easily, or both if one suits a
problem better than the other in one particular instance. It means that
I do not have to rely on the IDE for builds, granted Eclipse will
generate me ANT scripts that do the same job, but our build structure is
so complex in places that I can see me having to repeat lots of things
and even then, that still makes me ultimately dependant on Eclipse - I'm
not currently *dependant* on Netbeans and i'm not about to do anything
that will create a dependency to some other tool.
Our build system recursively manages and builds all dependent projects
as well as managing the integration with Subversion etc - really all the
IDE has got to do is act as a development environment and ask the build
system to perform tasks as and when.
Now, if it comes down to it, I'll look at writing my own plug-in to
achieve this - so if that's what's required, any comments or advice on
such a thing would be much appreciated.
Please redirect any anti-Netbeans flames to /dev/null, consider me a
current Netbeans user who is using it more out of necessity and
experience, I don't hold particular allegiances to any IDE, if it does
the job then it's good enough for me :)
Thanks in advance for any help and advice in helping me get Eclipse in
to our company.
Matt.
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| Re: Using External Build Structure [message #118726 is a reply to message #118534] |
Mon, 21 November 2005 14:18  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eclipse3.rizzoweb.com
Matthew Peddlesden wrote:
> I've developed a build process that is entirely IDE independant for my
> company, using ANT. Everything is built such that the code can be
> built, tested and run on any platform using the complex ant build
> scripts, the complex interdependencies both on 3rd party jars and 1st
> party projects are all managed by my own property files making it
> extremely easy for me to manage in our environment.
>
> Currently, we can use the Netbeans 'Free Form Project' integration to
> use this set-up and it works quite well, albeit with some limitations it
> is 100% usable, i've built an ant target that will auto generate the
> relevant netbeans 'project.xml' such that all the source files, test
> files etc all show up, relevant buttons and commands (e.g. compile, run,
> debug) all point to the correct ant targets and everything works quite
> well - including integrated IDE debugging and so forth, for both web
> apps and regular apps.
>
> Question is... how to do this in Eclipse...
[trimmed lots of contextual information]
Eclipse is essentially a generic platform and can be configured to
operate in nearly endless ways. I have definitely done what I think you
are after; IOW, a hybrid system where there is an Ant build that is the
"system of record" for building, but for development Eclipse handles
some of the chores that the Ant build would do in a non-IDE fashion.
What Eclipse is very good at out of the box is incremental compilation
and copying of non-code resources. If you disable it's incremental
compiler and rely on your own Ant build, you will be losing a lot of the
value as a Java IDE; I'd recommend against that - it would amount to
using Eclipse as nothing more than a file navigator, crippled Java-aware
editor, and Ant launcher. That is not taking full advantage of what it
has to offer.
Instead, what I recommend is first going through the Help, specifically
the Java Development > Getting Started > "Project Config Tutorial" and
"Basic Tutorial." That will give you a good idea of the Eclipse
concepts of Projects and examples of most types of project organization
structures. Depending on how comfortable you are with the Eclipse UI and
base (non-Java) feature set, you might also want to go through the
Workbench User Guide tutorials.
Once you've got those concepts, I recommend setting up your project in
Eclipse so that the Eclipse builder builds the Java code and resources
that are associated with it (properties files, XML, JSPs, etc) into a
location that your Ant build can share. Depending on how much automation
you want, you can then either manually invoke your Ant build from
Eclipse's Ant view, or set it up as a Builder for the project (in which
case it will get invoked as part of every Eclipse build, which happens
every time you save a file that is in the source tree - not necessarily
just Java files, BTW). I usually opt for the former, making sure that
all "interesting" files that change regularly are included in the
project configuration as "source" files so they automatically get copied
to the build output location.
When set up this way, you can work taking full advantage of Eclipse's
Java features and still maintain control and use your Ant build as the
"system of record." If you set up the Eclipse builder to output to the
right place, the Ant build can leverage the Eclipse-compiled .class
files (and associated resources) so it does not have to compile/copy
them again every time. Of course doing a "clean" build with Ant will
wipe out the Eclipse-compiled classes which is desirable for a release
or QA build. But on a day-to-day development basis it is very efficient
to let Eclipse do its part of the build.
The key to getting this set up correctly is to really understand
Eclipse's concepts of project organization - many times newbies come on
this forum with problems and gripes that "Eclipse can't handle my
existing build or project organization" but it is almost always a case
of not taking the time to fully understand Eclipse - it is very flexible
and in more than 3 years and numerous projects I've only ever found one
type of existing project organization that I could not easily integrate
into Eclipse's project management and builder.
Of course feel free to post back here with specific questions if
something continues to elude you.
HTH,
Eric
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| Re: Using External Build Structure [message #119972 is a reply to message #118726] |
Sun, 27 November 2005 02:39 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: matt.uktrainsim.com
Thanks for the reply Eric, much appreciated.
I have decided on an approach similar to what you suggest, essentially
i've abandoned the idea of trying to get the ANT build system to do every
minute-to-minute task and let it worry about the day-to-day. I am writing
a set of "publish" tags that will permit me to export to project files in
native format for Netbeans and Eclipse (the latter first as it's by far
the easiest!) such that the IDE can perform its own tasks in the best way
it knows and the full power of the IDE is available to developers - then
when a formal build is needed the ant system can be used to create the
build with no ide-generated code ever leaving a developers machine.
As clever as the Netbeans Freeform system is, I can see me constantly
chasing a moving target with other developers in the organisation
frustrated that they can't use the latest whizbang features because either
FF doesn't support them or I haven't integrated them yet - this way, it
doesn't matter as long as I can export a valid project file.
Initially, it's still going to need developers to maintain the ant build
system in terms of dependencies etc, but I have always expected that, what
I have realised is that a form of import might not be too hard - i.e. read
classpath and compare with the dependency list in the project within ant
and then update ant to reflect those changes, thereby permitting
(potentially) developers to even configure the projects within their
chosen IDE... that's more a pipe dream at the moment, if I can get it
working reliably one way that will do for now :)
Thanks again,
Matt.
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| Re: Using External Build Structure [message #121014 is a reply to message #120507] |
Wed, 30 November 2005 22:37 |
| Eclipse User |
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I'd seen those plug-ins and my intention is to investigate their use in
exactly this function, very exciting stuff indeed. The pipe dream is more
about lack of time to be honest :)
Having just done the publishing of netbeans project files I have to say
that Eclipse's format is significantly simpler and more effective imho.
Matt.
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