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Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #104729]

Tue, 14 October 2003 19:11

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

From:
http://download2.eclipse.org/downloads/drops/S-3.0M4-2003101 01454/eclipse-news-part1-M4.html

The new Java code formatter can be enabled via the Java > Work in Progress >
Code Formatter preference page. This formatter will be much more flexible than
its predecessors, although you'll have to take that on faith until its new
preference page is ready.

I am curious why they are bothering re-implementing this when there are already
a couple of formatters available and, in fact, potentially the best formatter
ever, Jalopy. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to integrate Jalopy more
tightly into Eclipse and build on their successes?

-- Kraythe

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #105150 is a reply to message #104729]

Wed, 15 October 2003 07:10

Eclipse User

Hi,

> I am curious why they are bothering re-implementing this when there are
already
> a couple of formatters available and, in fact, potentially the best
formatter
> ever, Jalopy. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to integrate Jalopy more
> tightly into Eclipse and build on their successes?

I think this are two different concepts. Jalopy takes a complete source file
and compiles it. The Eclipse formatter should format while writing. This
could be one reason.

Bye,

Thorsten

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #105228 is a reply to message #105150]

Wed, 15 October 2003 08:25

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: daniel.megert.gmx.net

Thorsten Schäfer wrote:

>Hi,
>
>
>
>>I am curious why they are bothering re-implementing this when there are
>>
>>
>already
>
>
>>a couple of formatters available and, in fact, potentially the best
>>
>>
>formatter
>
>
>>ever, Jalopy. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to integrate Jalopy more
>>tightly into Eclipse and build on their successes?
>>
>>
>
>I think this are two different concepts. Jalopy takes a complete source file
>and compiles it. The Eclipse formatter should format while writing.
>
What do you mean with "should"? AFIK there are only some smart typing
features which might (but currently don't) use the formatter but in
general there's no such thing like auto-format on typing. However, the
formatter can be used to format a bunch of statements instead of the
full source file. I would assume that Jalopy can do this as well.

> This
>could be one reason.
>
>Bye,
>
>Thorsten
>
>
>
>

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #105933 is a reply to message #105228]

Thu, 16 October 2003 04:34

Eclipse User

> >I think this are two different concepts. Jalopy takes a complete source
file
> >and compiles it. The Eclipse formatter should format while writing.
> >
> What do you mean with "should"? AFIK there are only some smart typing
> features which might (but currently don't) use the formatter but in
> general there's no such thing like auto-format on typing. However, the
> formatter can be used to format a bunch of statements instead of the
> full source file. I would assume that Jalopy can do this as well.

Just look where your cursor hops to if you press enter. This depends on
identation rules. Or imagine you type in a "{" bracket - with which
identation should the closing bracket appear? I think this has to be done at
"type-time" not after you've written the complete source and format it.
Bye the way: in my opinion, the best idea would be 2 code formatter
settings: a project has a single one, and every user can have another one.
This would enable every developer to use his formatting style. On the other
hand, you don't have the typical different-style-problems, like bad diff
results.

Bye,

Thorsten

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106000 is a reply to message #105933]

Thu, 16 October 2003 05:57

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: daniel.megert.gmx.net

Thorsten Schäfer wrote:

>>>I think this are two different concepts. Jalopy takes a complete source
>>>
>>>
>file
>
>
>>>and compiles it. The Eclipse formatter should format while writing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>What do you mean with "should"? AFIK there are only some smart typing
>>features which might (but currently don't) use the formatter but in
>>general there's no such thing like auto-format on typing. However, the
>>formatter can be used to format a bunch of statements instead of the
>>full source file. I would assume that Jalopy can do this as well.
>>
>>
>
>Just look where your cursor hops to if you press enter. This depends on
>identation rules. Or imagine you type in a "{" bracket - with which
>identation should the closing bracket appear? I think this has to be done at
>"type-time" not after you've written the complete source and format it.
>Bye the way: in my opinion, the best idea would be 2 code formatter
>settings: a project has a single one, and every user can have another one.
>This would enable every developer to use his formatting style. On the other
>hand, you don't have the typical different-style-problems, like bad diff
>results.
>
>
Yes, that's a feature I'd like to see for a while now.

>Bye,
>
>Thorsten
>
>
>
>

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106158 is a reply to message #104729]

Thu, 16 October 2003 08:35

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: olivier_thomann.ca.ibm.comNOSPAM

Le Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:11:38 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
<derisor@arcor.de> a écrit :
>I am curious why they are bothering re-implementing this when there are already
>a couple of formatters available and, in fact, potentially the best formatter
>ever, Jalopy. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to integrate Jalopy more
>tightly into Eclipse and build on their successes?
Jalopy is not free and you need to pay for it.
Nothing is preventing the Jalopy author from integrating jalopy with
Eclipse. We simply would like to propose a default implementation that
is a little bit more flexible than the previous formatter.
--
Olivier

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106242 is a reply to message #106158]

Thu, 16 October 2003 09:39

Eclipse User

Hi,

> Jalopy is not free and you need to pay for it.
> Nothing is preventing the Jalopy author from integrating jalopy with
> Eclipse. We simply would like to propose a default implementation that
> is a little bit more flexible than the previous formatter.

That's not right. There's a OS version available at sourceforge. The new
versions will be commercial, but you could rely on the OS version. But as
mentioned in the other thread, I think Jalopy isn't usefull for
just-in-time-formatting.

Bye,

Thorsten

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106397 is a reply to message #105933]

Thu, 16 October 2003 11:47

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

"Thorsten Sch

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106410 is a reply to message #106158]

Thu, 16 October 2003 11:50

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

As far as I know there is no fee for jalopy. It is a sourceforge project.
Therefore this information is invalid as shown by the replyer's ignorance of the
eclipse plugin. I am merely stating that there are bigger fish to fry in Eclipse
then source formatters given the existence of jalopy.

-- Robert

"Olivier Thomann" <olivier_thomann@ca.ibm.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:014tovkp282p1m0r30ngu5e492ptinv5ke@4ax.com...
> Le Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:11:38 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
> <derisor@arcor.de> a

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106423 is a reply to message #106410]

Thu, 16 October 2003 11:51

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

In fact, here is the link. ...

http://jalopy.sourceforge.net/

-- Robert

"Robert Simmons" <derisor@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:bmmemk$sqg$1@eclipse.org...
> As far as I know there is no fee for jalopy. It is a sourceforge project.
> Therefore this information is invalid as shown by the replyer's ignorance of
the
> eclipse plugin. I am merely stating that there are bigger fish to fry in
Eclipse
> then source formatters given the existence of jalopy.
>
> -- Robert
>
> "Olivier Thomann" <olivier_thomann@ca.ibm.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:014tovkp282p1m0r30ngu5e492ptinv5ke@4ax.com...
> > Le Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:11:38 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
> > <derisor@arcor.de> a

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106693 is a reply to message #106410]

Thu, 16 October 2003 15:24

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: olivier_thomann.ca.ibm.comNOSPAM

Le Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:50:14 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
<derisor@arcor.de> a écrit :
>As far as I know there is no fee for jalopy. It is a sourceforge project.
>Therefore this information is invalid as shown by the replyer's ignorance of the
>eclipse plugin. I am merely stating that there are bigger fish to fry in Eclipse
>then source formatters given the existence of jalopy.
I don't like the tone of your message. I REALLY don't like to be
called a liar.

I know what I read.
Here is a bug that I reported against Jalopy and Jalopy author replied
that Jalopy as an open source project is dead.
See:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid =759909&group_id=45216&atid=442212

See this message for further details:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=24634 25&forum_id=8775
I don't say anything when I am not sure.

Now, if you still believe I don't say the truth, please give me your
source of information.
--
Olivier

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106707 is a reply to message #106693]

Thu, 16 October 2003 15:55

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

Blah .....

I didn't know that. In that case, need any help ? :-)

-- Robert

"Olivier Thomann" <olivier_thomann@ca.ibm.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:ghrtovsfl1n9et9mo1eu5pp9aeunik3t0h@4ax.com...
> Le Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:50:14 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
> <derisor@arcor.de> a

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106748 is a reply to message #106707]

Thu, 16 October 2003 16:44

Eclipse User

olivier:
i tried to be nice to him but i give up.

robert:
stop trolling; only post if you have a legitimate question/comment.

-alvin

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106776 is a reply to message #106693]

Thu, 16 October 2003 20:29

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

I wasn't calling you a liar, I merely thought you were wrong and you proved
otherwise. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

-- Robert

"Olivier Thomann" <olivier_thomann@ca.ibm.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:ghrtovsfl1n9et9mo1eu5pp9aeunik3t0h@4ax.com...
> Le Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:50:14 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
> <derisor@arcor.de> a

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106791 is a reply to message #106748]

Thu, 16 October 2003 20:37

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

Sigh ... Some people are so touchy. Just because I might think someone is wrong
doesn't mean I am calling them a liar. I am wrong quite frequently. Its a hazard
of being human. I had a legitimate question and people answered it. I learned
something I didn't know in the process. When it was said that jalopy had been
discontinued as open source I had not heard of this and I looked for information
and didn't find that. Somehow someone took what I was saying as calling them a
liar. Apparently they took this offence based on some "tone" which simply means
their own perception of my words since I said nothing derogatory. The "tone"
other people perceive is something I cant control.

As for trolling, I don't get any kudos for posting. No one is patting me on the
back nor do I get any satisfaction out of being subjected to the BS you put me
through on the other thread. I chose to drop the other thread because further
comments would not have been productive. Yes, I could have attacked back. I
could have reacted to your insults and thinly veiled implications but I decided
not to.

If people choose to take it personally when someone has criticism as opposed to
Ra-Ra go guys then I am sorry but life is full of criticism. I have a team of 20
people working for me right now and criticism is wall to wall but I try not to
take it personally.

Perhaps the thought of the day should be:

It is possible to be wrong, a good programmer and not a liar all at the same
time.

-- Robert

"Alvin Thompson" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bmmvrr$em8$1@eclipse.org...
> olivier:
> i tried to be nice to him but i give up.
>
> robert:
> stop trolling; only post if you have a legitimate question/comment.
>
> -alvin
>

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #106926 is a reply to message #106707]

Fri, 17 October 2003 08:18

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: olivier_thomann.ca.ibm.comNOSPAM

Le Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:55:13 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
<derisor@arcor.de> a écrit :
>Therefore this information is invalid as shown by the replyer's ignorance of
>the eclipse plugin.
Let's say this is not a very positive way to express that I might be
wrong. No offence.

>I didn't know that. In that case, need any help ? :-)
But let's take it positively.

The best way to help us improving the code formatter, is to report
problems with test cases against JDT/Core.

Thanks for your help,

Olivier

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #107212 is a reply to message #106926]

Fri, 17 October 2003 16:49

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

"Olivier Thomann" <olivier_thomann@ca.ibm.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:ianvov4gob7ma3k4au4jv1g1bacdtt0o6b@4ax.com...
> Le Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:55:13 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
> <derisor@arcor.de> a

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #107765 is a reply to message #106397]

Mon, 20 October 2003 03:31

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: Newsletter.ThorstenSchaefer.de

Hi,

> This is a very bad idea in corporate developement. In a project you want
to
> present a consistent feel to the source code and not have developers
trying to
> figure out each other's programming style. spending time to figure out
someones
> style leads to wasted time and errors which lead to more wasted time. It
is far
> better to describe company wide formatting standards and enforce them
> rigorously.

Why? The proposed solution results in one corporate coding standard which is
persisted in the CVS. But in addition to that, every developer has the
possibility to view the source like he wants to. I think standardization is
a good thing, if it doesn't hurt the users. Enforcement of a single coding
standard is always hard...

Thorsten

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #107779 is a reply to message #107765]

Mon, 20 October 2003 04:08

Eclipse User

Thorsten Schäfer wrote:
>
> Robert Simmons" wrote:
>> This is a very bad idea in corporate development... >8
>> Spending time to figure out someones style leads to wasted time... >8
>> It is far better to describe company wide formatting standards
>> and enforce them rigorously.
>
> Why? The proposed solution results in one corporate coding standard
> which is persisted in the CVS. But in addition to that, every
> developer has the possibility to view the source like he wants to. I
> think standardization is a good thing, if it doesn't hurt the users.
> Enforcement of a single coding standard is always hard...

Here, here! Additionally, from the perspective of someone who's
employed contractors, and who's done a little contracting:

(a) Contract developers don't necessarily know, or agree with, or want
to pollute their minds with, a particular company's coding styles, so
this will be a very popular feature with such individuals.

(b) From the employer's perspective, when paying a contractor by the
day, they want to avoid learning curves, eliminating the need to impart
and enforce a coding style saves money and will therefore be popular at
a corporate level.

This, of course, does not negate anything Robert says about the benefit
that the company gains from having a single corporate coding style,
which I agree is most important, but it does save money and make the
development task easier - which is what an IDE is about.

Now; what about C, COBOL, etc? I do hope the mechanism will work for
any code in any repository.

Rich

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #107860 is a reply to message #107212]

Mon, 20 October 2003 10:45

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: olivier_thomann.ca.ibm.comNOSPAM

Le Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:49:26 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
<derisor@arcor.de> a écrit :
>> The best way to help us improving the code formatter, is to report
>> problems with test cases against JDT/Core.
>I would like to see all of the features of jalopy today ideally. But I dont
>think you want me to file that many bug reports.
In fact I believe that once the new code formatter page will be there,
lots of options will be possible.
If you think that something is missing, enter a feature request. It
won't hurt and we won't lose it.
--
Olivier

Re: Why a new source formatter in M4? [message #108034 is a reply to message #107860]

Mon, 20 October 2003 19:47

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: derisor.arcor.de

Oh well, I'm not concerned about you loosing it. It is merely that you would
need 100 or more bug reports to encapsulate the functionality I would like to
see. I tried to look at the JDT to see how I could help but I didnt understand
the structure once I drilled down that far.

-- Robert

"Olivier Thomann" <olivier_thomann@ca.ibm.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:v5t7pvosllett4ta5udp21pa4sp5ll9fnk@4ax.com...
> Le Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:49:26 +0200, "Robert Simmons"
> <derisor@arcor.de> a

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