Home » Language IDEs » PHP Development Tools (PDT) » aptana php support
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| Re: aptana php support [message #87563 is a reply to message #87487] |
Tue, 23 December 2008 14:04   |
 exceptione
Messages: 96
Registered: July 2009 |
Member |
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hertzel schreef:
> my question is it is even close?
close to what?
If I look at the screencasts, I think their php-plugin have slightly
surpassed pdt . Combined with their stronger support for html, js, css
and so forth they are an enormous threat to pdt. Aptana moves incredibly
fast. Almost each month they add a new library/plugin/language.
But I don't know how stable it is.
I simply don't understand why they can build such huge things (aptana
cloud anyone?) with a modest team, while simple features in phpeclipse
and pdt, whose teams only focus on php, takes years to come.
Check out aptana.com and look at their documentation, products,
screencasts, tutorials, and bug system: they must use some magic in
their office. I don't mean that pdt is particularly slow—I don't have
enough insight to judge upon that—but the competitor is apparently at
least 4 times stronger.
I think it will be a matter of a few months before support for php
frameworks will arrive in aptana.
The next competitive advantage in the php-IDE is php 5.3 /6.0 support. I
am curious who will be the first.
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| Re: aptana php support [message #87607 is a reply to message #87563] |
Tue, 23 December 2008 17:42 |
Roy Ganor
Messages: 149
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hey Guys,
Although I usually ignore posts like this in the PDT newsgroup, this time
I couldn't help it as this boosts my passion to get PDT better and prove
that open source based products are better than other closed-source based
commercial products.
So relating to the comparison you guys did I want to mention:
1. Eclipse is an open-source project, its ecosystem is wonderful, ideas
are accepted and declined by many people, new directions are investigated
every day, people raise their thoughts to the public through wiki and
bugzilla systems, there are several extensions on top of PDT as we open
our API so that other companies can reuse it. We enjoy from tens of people
who actively download the nightly bundle and alert us on any stupid thing
we do, and that is just the beginning since this project is 3 years old
and the list can be go much longer. Aptana doesn't have this reach
ecosystem.
2. Most of Eclipse PDT developers are Zend employees - there are bad
things and good things regarding this. But the most important thing is
that we live in THE PHP company which knows what best for PHP developers
as we in contact with the community and other enterprise customers. Aptana
doesn't have this notion and will not "gain" it in the next future.
3. There are many problems with JavaScript source editing and user
experience with Eclipse, all are under the Web Tools responsibility and
will be hopefully handled in next versions. From my experience if
something is wrong in an open source project - someone will be pissed off
and fix it! this is not the case in the Aptana editor case (What you see
is what you get).
4. I don't want to be part of the nasty comparison between PDT and Aptana
but IMHO Aptana introduces lousy features, if this screencast shows their
best features I am really not concerned.
So I want to conclude - if you have *any specific issue* that might help
us improve Eclipse PDT - just say it! we consider any request and we do
our best to implement it, you can ask users who give us feedback in a
daily basis and put a thought in our next generation product - Eclipse PDT
2.0/2.1. If you want to hassle us - that's fine! we enjoy reading it in
the small and late hours we spend on Eclipse PDT development ;)
Best Regards,
- Roy Ganor
Eclipse PDT Project Lead,
Zend Studio Project Lead,
Zent Technologies LTD.,
Exception e wrote:
> hertzel schreef:
>> my question is it is even close?
> close to what?
> If I look at the screencasts, I think their php-plugin have slightly
> surpassed pdt . Combined with their stronger support for html, js, css
> and so forth they are an enormous threat to pdt. Aptana moves incredibly
> fast. Almost each month they add a new library/plugin/language.
> But I don't know how stable it is.
> I simply don't understand why they can build such huge things (aptana
> cloud anyone?) with a modest team, while simple features in phpeclipse
> and pdt, whose teams only focus on php, takes years to come.
> Check out aptana.com and look at their documentation, products,
> screencasts, tutorials, and bug system: they must use some magic in
> their office. I don't mean that pdt is particularly slowI don't have
> enough insight to judge upon thatbut the competitor is apparently at
> least 4 times stronger.
> I think it will be a matter of a few months before support for php
> frameworks will arrive in aptana.
> The next competitive advantage in the php-IDE is php 5.3 /6.0 support. I
> am curious who will be the first.
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| Re: aptana php support [message #87621 is a reply to message #87563] |
Tue, 23 December 2008 20:19 |
Hertzel Armengol
Messages: 19
Registered: July 2009 |
Junior Member |
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I usually don judge something based just on a screencast, and of couse I
love PDT but.. there's something a big difference... when you open a
ticket with the aptana guys the SOLVE it usually within a week, and they
do regular major updates... I still remember how long I had to wait to
see real folders with 2.0 (not packages) and how many mails where send
to this list about it.
Now if you as a company rely on others to improve YOUR product you are
placing yourself against a wall, as they can compromise the overall
quality of your solution (its actually happening with WST).
I agree that aptana tends to release things too fast for my tastes, but
no everything is home made take for example python and ruby those two
where the most popular stand alone eclipse projects for those two
languages and aptana brought them to ensure in house support for them
and enhance the feel of a solid foundation to their paid customers
Here the same applies with Zend and ZendStudio´.
There are just different stand points
Exception e wrote:
> hertzel schreef:
>> my question is it is even close?
> close to what?
>
> If I look at the screencasts, I think their php-plugin have slightly
> surpassed pdt . Combined with their stronger support for html, js, css
> and so forth they are an enormous threat to pdt. Aptana moves incredibly
> fast. Almost each month they add a new library/plugin/language.
> But I don't know how stable it is.
>
> I simply don't understand why they can build such huge things (aptana
> cloud anyone?) with a modest team, while simple features in phpeclipse
> and pdt, whose teams only focus on php, takes years to come.
> Check out aptana.com and look at their documentation, products,
> screencasts, tutorials, and bug system: they must use some magic in
> their office. I don't mean that pdt is particularly slow—I don't have
> enough insight to judge upon that—but the competitor is apparently at
> least 4 times stronger.
>
> I think it will be a matter of a few months before support for php
> frameworks will arrive in aptana.
> The next competitive advantage in the php-IDE is php 5.3 /6.0 support. I
> am curious who will be the first.
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| Re: aptana php support [message #87635 is a reply to message #87607] |
Tue, 23 December 2008 20:48 |
exceptione
Messages: 96
Registered: July 2009 |
Member |
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|
Hey Roy,
Thanks for following up. Note that my observation was in no way a rant,
I am actually a pdt enthusiast. The only thing is that I am not a
fanboy/fool, I always keep a critical eye on things I love.
In fact I am very gratefull with a professional IDE that comes for free.
I am Dutch so you know what that means to me. Also, I've been using the
old Zend Studio. That product was completely broken in comparison with
today's PDT.
> Although I usually ignore posts like this in the PDT newsgroup, this
> time I couldn't help it as this boosts my passion to get PDT better and
> prove that open source based products are better than other
> closed-source based commercial products.
>
> So relating to the comparison you guys did I want to mention:
>
> 1. Eclipse is an open-source project, its ecosystem is wonderful, ideas
> are accepted and declined by many people, new directions are
> investigated every day, people raise their thoughts to the public
> through wiki and bugzilla systems, there are several extensions on top
> of PDT as we open our API so that other companies can reuse it. We enjoy
> from tens of people who actively download the nightly bundle and alert
> us on any stupid thing we do, and that is just the beginning since this
> project is 3 years old and the list can be go much longer. Aptana
> doesn't have this reach ecosystem.
To be honest, this remarks embarrases me a little. I would have thought
that you know your competitor by heart! Aptana *is* open source.
Actually, Aptana does a lot in teaching their clients to use their api
in order to create new plugins. You can see it yourselves here:
http://www.aptana.com/dev/index.php/Main_Page#source
Aptana can be used as a plugin in eclipse itselves.
> 2. Most of Eclipse PDT developers are Zend employees - there are bad
> things and good things regarding this. But the most important thing is
> that we live in THE PHP company which knows what best for PHP developers
> as we in contact with the community and other enterprise customers.
> Aptana doesn't have this notion and will not "gain" it in the next future.
I can imagine that being a Zend employee helps in implementing a better
php ide than the competitor. PHP support in Aptana is _just a plugin_,
and for a long period php support in Aptana was minimal. I mean: no type
inference, class completion and so forth. The Zend advantage have indeed
been true for a long period. You're right.
As I understand from the bugs, the fora, the documentation and the demos
aptana's php plugin is on par with that from pdt.
- Syntax higlighting.
In Aptana this is more fine grained.
- Code completion (templates, classes, php libraries, php
functions). The same
- Debugging. [Zend/ XDebug].
The same, although remote debugging is experimental in aptana according
to the docs.
- manual
The same
In general aptana gives you some more control on individual options, but
the main features are roughly the same.
> 3. There are many problems with JavaScript source editing and user
> experience with Eclipse, all are under the Web Tools responsibility and
> will be hopefully handled in next versions. From my experience if
> something is wrong in an open source project - someone will be pissed
> off and fix it! this is not the case in the Aptana editor case (What you
> see is what you get).
I don't know if there are a lot of user contributions the code. I fear
the situation is the same as for pdt.
But everyone is free to contribute code or fill in bug reports.
>
> 4. I don't want to be part of the nasty comparison between PDT and
> Aptana but IMHO Aptana introduces lousy features, if this screencast
> shows their best features I am really not concerned.
What feature didn't you like?
> So I want to conclude - if you have *any specific issue* that might help
> us improve Eclipse PDT - just say it! we consider any request and we do
> our best to implement it, you can ask users who give us feedback in a
> daily basis and put a thought in our next generation product - Eclipse
> PDT 2.0/2.1. If you want to hassle us - that's fine! we enjoy reading it
> in the small and late hours we spend on Eclipse PDT development ;)
I surely don't want to hassle you. To reassure you: I love pdt and have
no links with Aptana. I believe the pdt team to be a good and
professional team, comparable to those from other professional eclipse
projects! In my previous remark I only wanted to express that the aptana
folks are mad ide builders. They move incredibly fast, and I don't
understand how they do that. Sorry if you misunderstood my remarks as a
reproach.
New feature requests? I have some ideas:
- extensive refactoring. extract method, surround try cath and so forth
- database completion: auto complete fields and table names in strings
and Zend_DB_Select. Netbeans has implemented database completion, but i
don't know how this works.
- ability to automatically set the type of $this to a predefined class
(e.g. Zend_View) for certain types of files. This would be a project
configuration option.
- (minor) option to the let the formatter respect your max line width
setting. Consequenses:
* Insert newlines in docblocks while typing
* auto formatting ensures characters won't cross the limit
- Ability to insert docblocks while typing, instead of having to
right-click an element in Outline view
- Auto completion in Doc Block.
>
> Exception e wrote:
>
>> hertzel schreef:
>>> my question is it is even close?
>> close to what?
>
>> If I look at the screencasts, I think their php-plugin have slightly
>> surpassed pdt . Combined with their stronger support for html, js, css
>> and so forth they are an enormous threat to pdt. Aptana moves
>> incredibly fast. Almost each month they add a new
>> library/plugin/language.
>> But I don't know how stable it is.
>
>> I simply don't understand why they can build such huge things (aptana
>> cloud anyone?) with a modest team, while simple features in phpeclipse
>> and pdt, whose teams only focus on php, takes years to come.
>> Check out aptana.com and look at their documentation, products,
>> screencasts, tutorials, and bug system: they must use some magic in
>> their office. I don't mean that pdt is particularly slow—I don't have
>> enough insight to judge upon that—but the competitor is apparently at
>> least 4 times stronger.
>
>> I think it will be a matter of a few months before support for php
>> frameworks will arrive in aptana.
>> The next competitive advantage in the php-IDE is php 5.3 /6.0 support.
>> I am curious who will be the first.
>
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