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Home » Language IDEs » PHP Development Tools (PDT) » if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse
if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81442] Thu, 09 October 2008 09:40 Go to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: pobox.verysmall.org

After spending a lot of hope and nerves on PDT (being a brand fetishist
and believing that what comes from the eclipse.org web site, should be
the best) - I finally decided for PHPEclipse and the result has been great.

I can, finally, enjoy 3.4 instead of being stuck with a legacy version
and, for my personal needs, PHPEclipse hasn't exhibited any
disadvantages to PDT (which might not be true for everyone). If you
wonder if I do things, more complex than "Hello, world!" - yes, I do.

I'll check PDT again after some time, hoping it has managed to get out
of the unfortunate delay (my brand fetishism is not easy to cure :).

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!

Iv
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81458 is a reply to message #81442] Thu, 09 October 2008 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: spam.networks.fi

Iv Ray wrote:
> After spending a lot of hope and nerves on PDT (being a brand fetishist
> and believing that what comes from the eclipse.org web site, should be
> the best) - I finally decided for PHPEclipse and the result has been great.
>
> I can, finally, enjoy 3.4 instead of being stuck with a legacy version
> and, for my personal needs, PHPEclipse hasn't exhibited any
> disadvantages to PDT (which might not be true for everyone). If you
> wonder if I do things, more complex than "Hello, world!" - yes, I do.
>
> I'll check PDT again after some time, hoping it has managed to get out
> of the unfortunate delay (my brand fetishism is not easy to cure :).
>
> So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
>
> Iv

I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81560 is a reply to message #81458] Thu, 09 October 2008 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: work-del.del-subjectivist.org

Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
> I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
> developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
> feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.

As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing PDT
was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor documentation.
Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After reading I thought PDT
was the way to go and I did trial and error, but there is no precise
step-by-step list of things to do. After reading this thread I wiped out
the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started over. According to the clear
instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I added a single URL to the software
update page, and I was off! No trial and error. No pick and choose
wondering what means what. Also, the Eclipse perspective has Apache on/off
icons and what's presented is geared more to doing PHP. I was not able to
get rid of the 'selection job title' error that kept popping up with PDT,
and the IDE was useless because of that. Much more stuff needed to be
installed with PDT, too.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81575 is a reply to message #81560] Fri, 10 October 2008 00:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Muir is currently offline David MuirFriend
Messages: 63
Registered: July 2009
Member
You mean you couldn't find this:?
http://wiki.eclipse.org/PDT/Installation#Eclipse_3.4_.2F_Gan ymede_.2F_PDT_2.0

Sure PDT doesn't have the handy update site yet. (or does it now?)
It doesn't take a science degree to download a few packages and install.
The "selection job title" error is probably because you installed version
0.95 of DLTK instead of 1.0 (clearly stated on the download and install
pages).
PHPEclipse is a great tool too, so enjoy.


David McDivitt wrote:

> As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing PDT
> was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor documentation.
> Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After reading I thought PDT
> was the way to go and I did trial and error, but there is no precise
> step-by-step list of things to do. After reading this thread I wiped out
> the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started over. According to the clear
> instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I added a single URL to the software
> update page, and I was off! No trial and error. No pick and choose
> wondering what means what. Also, the Eclipse perspective has Apache on/off
> icons and what's presented is geared more to doing PHP. I was not able to
> get rid of the 'selection job title' error that kept popping up with PDT,
> and the IDE was useless because of that. Much more stuff needed to be
> installed with PDT, too.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81599 is a reply to message #81560] Fri, 10 October 2008 06:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lester Caine is currently offline Lester CaineFriend
Messages: 65
Registered: July 2009
Member
David McDivitt wrote:
> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>> I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
>> developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
>> feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.
>
> As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing
> PDT was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor
> documentation. Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After
> reading I thought PDT was the way to go and I did trial and error, but
> there is no precise step-by-step list of things to do. After reading
> this thread I wiped out the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started over.
> According to the clear instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I added a
> single URL to the software update page, and I was off! No trial and
> error. No pick and choose wondering what means what. Also, the Eclipse
> perspective has Apache on/off icons and what's presented is geared more
> to doing PHP. I was not able to get rid of the 'selection job title'
> error that kept popping up with PDT, and the IDE was useless because of
> that. Much more stuff needed to be installed with PDT, too.

And having PHPEclipse in some of the Linux distributions helps as well ;)
I've never switched to PDT and I'm happy that I made the right decision since
I've not found anything missing ....

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81614 is a reply to message #81560] Fri, 10 October 2008 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: spam.networks.fi

David McDivitt wrote:
> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>> I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
>> developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
>> feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.
>
> As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing
> PDT was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor
> documentation. Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After
> reading I thought PDT was the way to go and I did trial and error, but
> there is no precise step-by-step list of things to do. After reading
> this thread I wiped out the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started over.
> According to the clear instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I added a
> single URL to the software update page, and I was off! No trial and
> error. No pick and choose wondering what means what. Also, the Eclipse
> perspective has Apache on/off icons and what's presented is geared more
> to doing PHP. I was not able to get rid of the 'selection job title'
> error that kept popping up with PDT, and the IDE was useless because of
> that. Much more stuff needed to be installed with PDT, too.

But does PHPEclipse offer me anything that PDT 1.0.3 doesn't already? At
PHPEclipse site the comparison chart doesn't seem to provide me any new
functionality. PDT 1.0.3 is relatively stable and feature rich compnent
after all. Can I do more with less with PHPEclipse? :)
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81629 is a reply to message #81614] Fri, 10 October 2008 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lester Caine is currently offline Lester CaineFriend
Messages: 65
Registered: July 2009
Member
Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
> David McDivitt wrote:
>> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>>> I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
>>> developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
>>> feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.
>> As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing
>> PDT was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor
>> documentation. Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After
>> reading I thought PDT was the way to go and I did trial and error, but
>> there is no precise step-by-step list of things to do. After reading
>> this thread I wiped out the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started over.
>> According to the clear instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I added a
>> single URL to the software update page, and I was off! No trial and
>> error. No pick and choose wondering what means what. Also, the Eclipse
>> perspective has Apache on/off icons and what's presented is geared more
>> to doing PHP. I was not able to get rid of the 'selection job title'
>> error that kept popping up with PDT, and the IDE was useless because of
>> that. Much more stuff needed to be installed with PDT, too.
>
> But does PHPEclipse offer me anything that PDT 1.0.3 doesn't already? At
> PHPEclipse site the comparison chart doesn't seem to provide me any new
> functionality. PDT 1.0.3 is relatively stable and feature rich compnent
> after all. Can I do more with less with PHPEclipse? :)

Million dollar question ;)
Why wasn't PHPEclipse simply listed as the approved PHP environment when ZEND
decided that their own 'commercially linked' alternative should have that
privilege?
PHPEclipse offered everything long before PDT came on the scene. Now the
question is why do we have two options, one of which we CAN'T contribute to
ourselves ;)
But then this is not the list for that discussion :(

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81645 is a reply to message #81575] Fri, 10 October 2008 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 32660
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080006020706060005010707
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David,

Comments below.

David Muir wrote:
> You mean you couldn't find this:?
How did you read that from the PDT home page? The Installation link
gets me to

http://www.eclipse.org/pdt/install.php

The download page only lists integration builds for 2.0:

http://www.eclipse.org/pdt/downloads/

This page looks a lot like the one Nick Boldt helped create for
modeling. In any case, most users will want to be using release builds
or stable builds rather than integration builds...

> http://wiki.eclipse.org/PDT/Installation#Eclipse_3.4_.2F_Gan ymede_.2F_PDT_2.0
>
I don't actually know how to find this from the home page. I guess you
have to know that the wiki will have more or different information.
>
> Sure PDT doesn't have the handy update site yet. (or does it now?)
Nick has helped many groups get handy update sites in place...
> It doesn't take a science degree to download a few packages and install.
No, but it's awfully easy to make one wrong choice...
> The "selection job title" error is probably because you installed
> version 0.95 of DLTK instead of 1.0 (clearly stated on the download
> and install pages).
> PHPEclipse is a great tool too, so enjoy.
I suppose it would be nicer for the community to have one fantastic
tool. But there are no rules against competition. Maybe it even forces
improvements that might not happen otherwise...
>
>
> David McDivitt wrote:
>
>> As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing
>> PDT was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor
>> documentation. Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After
>> reading I thought PDT was the way to go and I did trial and error,
>> but there is no precise step-by-step list of things to do. After
>> reading this thread I wiped out the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started
>> over. According to the clear instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I
>> added a single URL to the software update page, and I was off! No
>> trial and error. No pick and choose wondering what means what. Also,
>> the Eclipse perspective has Apache on/off icons and what's presented
>> is geared more to doing PHP. I was not able to get rid of the
>> 'selection job title' error that kept popping up with PDT, and the
>> IDE was useless because of that. Much more stuff needed to be
>> installed with PDT, too.
>
>

--------------080006020706060005010707
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-15
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-15"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
David,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
David Muir wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:0343d0fd909964c03546cd3f143a62fb$1@www.eclipse.org"
type="cite">You mean you couldn't find this:?
<br>
</blockquote>
How did you read that from the PDT home page?


Ed Merks
Professional Support: https://www.macromodeling.com/
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81719 is a reply to message #81645] Sun, 12 October 2008 06:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: codeslave.ca.ibm.com

> http://www.eclipse.org/pdt/install.php

See https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=233744#c74, and
comment/vote.

> The download page only lists integration builds for 2.0:
> http://www.eclipse.org/pdt/downloads/

PDT 1.0.3 is listed there too.

>> Sure PDT doesn't have the handy update site yet. (or does it now?)

Yes, it does, it's just not linked from the website yet, because the PDT
team are on holidays (they're mostly in Israel).

http://www.eclipse.org/pdt/updates/ -->
http://download.eclipse.org/tools/pdt/updates/interim/

Nick
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82737 is a reply to message #81629] Tue, 28 October 2008 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org

Lester Caine wrote:
> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>
> Million dollar question ;)
> Why wasn't PHPEclipse simply listed as the approved PHP environment when
> ZEND decided that their own 'commercially linked' alternative should
> have that privilege?
> PHPEclipse offered everything long before PDT came on the scene. Now the
> question is why do we have two options, one of which we CAN'T contribute
> to ourselves ;)
> But then this is not the list for that discussion :(

Well, my understanding at this time is that the two groups don't really
get along. I think there was a time when PHPEclipse wanted to help and
merge with PDT but something happened that never caused that to happen.

The big advantage that PHPEclipe has right now, is that it works out of
the box with 3.4.x of eclipse. PDT could have a version the 1.0.x
branch that worked with Eclipse 3.4.x if they would just do a
maintenance release of the 1.0.5 branch sitting in CVS.

And actually this is the correct list for any discussion regarding the
community concerns about PDT and the future direction of it, or it's
perceived lack of openess or community concern.

Dave
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82761 is a reply to message #81719] Thu, 30 October 2008 06:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Muir is currently offline David MuirFriend
Messages: 63
Registered: July 2009
Member
Are the devs back from holidays yet?
Also, had a look at the update site, and it only had the integration
builds (interim). Any chance of getting nightlies? Or at least having them
built properly so that you don't have to uninstall-reinstall PDT every
time you want to update.

Nick Boldt wrote:

>>> Sure PDT doesn't have the handy update site yet. (or does it now?)

> Yes, it does, it's just not linked from the website yet, because the PDT
> team are on holidays (they're mostly in Israel).

> http://www.eclipse.org/pdt/updates/ -->
> http://download.eclipse.org/tools/pdt/updates/interim/

> Nick
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82765 is a reply to message #82761] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: silver.zachara.gmail.com

David Muir napsal(a):
> Are the devs back from holidays yet?
> Also, had a look at the update site, and it only had the integration
> builds (interim). Any chance of getting nightlies? Or at least having
> them built properly so that you don't have to uninstall-reinstall PDT
> every time you want to update.
>

From own experience I know that it is necessary, you have to uninstall-reinstall PDT every
time you want to update.

And there isn't any update site for nightly builds.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82769 is a reply to message #82737] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lester Caine is currently offline Lester CaineFriend
Messages: 65
Registered: July 2009
Member
David Carver wrote:
> Lester Caine wrote:
>> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>>
>> Million dollar question ;)
>> Why wasn't PHPEclipse simply listed as the approved PHP environment
>> when ZEND decided that their own 'commercially linked' alternative
>> should have that privilege?
>> PHPEclipse offered everything long before PDT came on the scene. Now
>> the question is why do we have two options, one of which we CAN'T
>> contribute to ourselves ;)
>> But then this is not the list for that discussion :(
>
> Well, my understanding at this time is that the two groups don't really
> get along. I think there was a time when PHPEclipse wanted to help and
> merge with PDT but something happened that never caused that to happen.
>
> The big advantage that PHPEclipe has right now, is that it works out of
> the box with 3.4.x of eclipse. PDT could have a version the 1.0.x
> branch that worked with Eclipse 3.4.x if they would just do a
> maintenance release of the 1.0.5 branch sitting in CVS.
>
> And actually this is the correct list for any discussion regarding the
> community concerns about PDT and the future direction of it, or it's
> perceived lack of openess or community concern.

But not the right place to 'air the dirty laundry' over the way PDT came into
existence. Commercial interests in Eclipse tend to get a better hearing than
truly open source interests. Zend launched an active campaign as to why
PHPEclipse was unsuitable - much of which was unsupported - but they won the
day simply because they could through bodies at the process. THAT is the
reason that there is some animosity between Zend and PHPEclipse ;)

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82772 is a reply to message #82737] Thu, 30 October 2008 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Roy Ganor is currently offline Roy GanorFriend
Messages: 150
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
David and All,

I personally think that the PHPEclipse team has its own interest,
otherwise I can't understand why they don't join the Eclipse Foundation
and PDT. I asked them more than once to join our team and contribute to
the timeline and everything, I guess that if they had agreed back then
Eclipse PDT would have Eclipse 3.4 support by now.

We are working hard to release a stable milestone soon, and in a few days
all will be able to benefit from it.
- Roy

David Carver wrote:

> Lester Caine wrote:
>> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>>
>> Million dollar question ;)
>> Why wasn't PHPEclipse simply listed as the approved PHP environment when
>> ZEND decided that their own 'commercially linked' alternative should
>> have that privilege?
>> PHPEclipse offered everything long before PDT came on the scene. Now the
>> question is why do we have two options, one of which we CAN'T contribute
>> to ourselves ;)
>> But then this is not the list for that discussion :(

> Well, my understanding at this time is that the two groups don't really
> get along. I think there was a time when PHPEclipse wanted to help and
> merge with PDT but something happened that never caused that to happen.

> The big advantage that PHPEclipe has right now, is that it works out of
> the box with 3.4.x of eclipse. PDT could have a version the 1.0.x
> branch that worked with Eclipse 3.4.x if they would just do a
> maintenance release of the 1.0.5 branch sitting in CVS.

> And actually this is the correct list for any discussion regarding the
> community concerns about PDT and the future direction of it, or it's
> perceived lack of openess or community concern.

> Dave
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82779 is a reply to message #82772] Thu, 30 October 2008 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org

Roy Ganor wrote:

> I personally think that the PHPEclipse team has its own interest,
> otherwise I can't understand why they don't join the Eclipse Foundation
> and PDT. I asked them more than once to join our team and contribute to
> the timeline and everything, I guess that if they had agreed back then
> Eclipse PDT would have Eclipse 3.4 support by now.
> We are working hard to release a stable milestone soon, and in a few
> days all will be able to benefit from it.

Roy thanks for responding, and it's nice to hear that PDT would be open
to having PHP Eclipse developer's work with PDT and vice versa. Now
it's just making it happen.

So, for those PHP Eclipse developers, how about it...I'm tossing the
ball in your corner. Both groups need to bury the hatchet and work in
the best interests of the community as a whole.

Dave
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82782 is a reply to message #82779] Fri, 31 October 2008 07:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lester Caine is currently offline Lester CaineFriend
Messages: 65
Registered: July 2009
Member
David Carver wrote:
> Roy Ganor wrote:
>
>> I personally think that the PHPEclipse team has its own interest,
>> otherwise I can't understand why they don't join the Eclipse
>> Foundation and PDT. I asked them more than once to join our team and
>> contribute to the timeline and everything, I guess that if they had
>> agreed back then Eclipse PDT would have Eclipse 3.4 support by now.
>> We are working hard to release a stable milestone soon, and in a few
>> days all will be able to benefit from it.
>
> Roy thanks for responding, and it's nice to hear that PDT would be open
> to having PHP Eclipse developer's work with PDT and vice versa. Now
> it's just making it happen.
>
> So, for those PHP Eclipse developers, how about it...I'm tossing the
> ball in your corner. Both groups need to bury the hatchet and work in
> the best interests of the community as a whole.

David - put the question the other way around. Why did the Zend team make a
case for starting their own code base - from scratch - in the first place?
PHPEclipse was well established and is STILL very popular. HAD they backed the
move to get it incorporated as the PHP platform in Eclipse we would not have a
problem today? The 'reasons' given for wanting to kill off PHPEclipse were not
valid and I for one have no intention improving a COMMERCIAL product when a
perfectly stable unencumbered open source alternative is available!

Zend were welcome to add their input to the PHPEclipse codebase but then they
would not have had the control that they currently exercise over PDT!

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82789 is a reply to message #82772] Fri, 31 October 2008 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorrit Schippers is currently offline Jorrit SchippersFriend
Messages: 26
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Roy Ganor wrote:
> David and All,
>
> I personally think that the PHPEclipse team has its own interest,
> otherwise I can't understand why they don't join the Eclipse Foundation
> and PDT. I asked them more than once to join our team and contribute to
> the timeline and everything, I guess that if they had agreed back then
> Eclipse PDT would have Eclipse 3.4 support by now.
> We are working hard to release a stable milestone soon, and in a few
> days all will be able to benefit from it.
> - Roy

I must support this last statement. I'm following the PDT 2.0
development using Mylyn and I see a steady flow of fixed tickets. For
me, the 2.0 nightlies are of beta quality (some glitches here and there,
but very workable), while nightlies usually are thought of as less then
alpha quality.

I think having both PDT and PHPEclipse does cause some "double effort"
to be wasted, but on the other hand it might also create better products
because of some competition and the fact that both teams can learn from
each others good and weak points.

If PHPEclipse and PDT decide to joins their efforts however, I would
also support it, if it does create a better product. But then the
PHPEclipse folks probably have to agree that Zend is using their code as
part of their commercial product and the Zend folks have to agree that
the PHPEclipse folks will try to bring as many features as possible to
the general public for free. That might not create the ideal situation
for a good project team, so it might be best if the two teams stay
separated.

Perhaps my views are entirely wrong, but that's how it looks to me right
now.

Jorrit
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82833 is a reply to message #82782] Fri, 31 October 2008 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org

> David - put the question the other way around. Why did the Zend team
> make a case for starting their own code base - from scratch - in the
> first place? PHPEclipse was well established and is STILL very popular.

Lester...the past is the past.... the question is what is good for the
community...not what happened in the past. If people can't get beyond
the issues that caused the splintering, then NOTHING will happen and we
will continue to have the status quo.


> HAD they backed the move to get it incorporated as the PHP platform in
> Eclipse we would not have a problem today? The 'reasons' given for
> wanting to kill off PHPEclipse were not valid and I for one have no
> intention improving a COMMERCIAL product when a perfectly stable
> unencumbered open source alternative is available!

Again...eclipse platform is about not re-inventing the wheel for common
functionality. Nothing is stopping you from continuing enhancing
PHPEclipse and continuing it as an open source platform. But really,
combining your efforts on the base will help everybody as a whole, you
get the benefits and features that Zend has contributed, and yes, they
get your benefits as well.

However, while competition does spur innovation, re-inventing the same
base functionality, probably isn't the best use of limited resources on
both projects.

Don't forget, Eclipse itself is used in MANY COMMERCIAL projects. And
truelly, there is nothing stopping somebody from taking PHPEclipse and
building a commercial product off of it as it's licensed under the
Common Public License.

> Zend were welcome to add their input to the PHPEclipse codebase but then
> they would not have had the control that they currently exercise over PDT!

Well, join them, and have equal input into a common code base. Whose
code base it is and where it is stored isn't the issue. The issue is
dropping old grudges and moving on.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82847 is a reply to message #82789] Fri, 31 October 2008 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org

Jorrit Schippers wrote:
>
> If PHPEclipse and PDT decide to joins their efforts however, I would
> also support it, if it does create a better product. But then the
> PHPEclipse folks probably have to agree that Zend is using their code as
> part of their commercial product and the Zend folks have to agree that
> the PHPEclipse folks will try to bring as many features as possible to
> the general public for free. That might not create the ideal situation
> for a good project team, so it might be best if the two teams stay
> separated.

Jorrit, this happens on many eclipse projects everyday. You have both
commercial developers, and individual contributors working on improving
the code. PDT is already available for free, so it already competes
with Zend at that point. Since it is available for free, somebody can
take the code base of PDT and build a competing commercial IDE on top of
it, or a competing open source IDE on top of it.

The whole problem with PDT project team right now is that it isn't as
diversified of a project as it really needs to be. Right now one
companies views and needs are being addressed over the needs of what
others might view as being a priority.

If you look at the number of individuals that committ code to eclipse,
it second only behind IBM.

Eclipse has a project dash board...you can see the project diversity:

http://dash.eclipse.org/dash/commits/web-app/project-diversi ty.cgi

93% of the code for PDT is being contributed by Zend.

compare this with the CDT project, which has over 57% of the code being
contributed by individual committers, with 20% coming from IBM and the
other portions being provided by Wind River.

Compete on value added features is the key, not the common feature set.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82861 is a reply to message #82833] Fri, 31 October 2008 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ingo Renner is currently offline Ingo RennerFriend
Messages: 40
Registered: July 2009
Member
David Carver wrote:

> ....

wise words, wise words!



Ingo
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82875 is a reply to message #82847] Fri, 31 October 2008 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Thompson is currently offline Andrew ThompsonFriend
Messages: 10
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
I guess one thing that concerns me is whether PDT will accept
overlapping with some of the features that Zend Studio supports, such as
the built-in profiler, Zend Framework integration.

Being that this would be a conflict of Zend's interests, would these
features be disregarded in the PDT?

PHPEclipse is supposedly free from commercial interests, so would be
more likely to listen to such feature requests.


Andy
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82889 is a reply to message #82875] Fri, 31 October 2008 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: silver.zachara.gmail.com

Andrew Thompson napsal(a):
> I guess one thing that concerns me is whether PDT will accept
> overlapping with some of the features that Zend Studio supports, such as
> the built-in profiler, Zend Framework integration.
>
> Being that this would be a conflict of Zend's interests, would these
> features be disregarded in the PDT?
>
> PHPEclipse is supposedly free from commercial interests, so would be
> more likely to listen to such feature requests.
>

I hope that this is perhaps a joke. PDT is opensource(or not?), that I think that it can
implement what it want.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82904 is a reply to message #82875] Fri, 31 October 2008 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org

Andrew Thompson wrote:
> I guess one thing that concerns me is whether PDT will accept
> overlapping with some of the features that Zend Studio supports, such as
> the built-in profiler, Zend Framework integration.
>
> Being that this would be a conflict of Zend's interests, would these
> features be disregarded in the PDT?
>
> PHPEclipse is supposedly free from commercial interests, so would be
> more likely to listen to such feature requests.

Andy this is why project diversification is key. This way no one
company can overly influence the direction. Eclipse encourages and
really wants more diversification in it's projects. It's why I think
it's important to get more community involvement, have existing PDT
committers be more open to new features and enhancements, and for
adopters to request features and functionality.

PDT should not equal Zend....PDT should equal adopter/community interests.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #83068 is a reply to message #82904] Tue, 04 November 2008 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lester Caine is currently offline Lester CaineFriend
Messages: 65
Registered: July 2009
Member
David Carver wrote:
> Andrew Thompson wrote:
>> I guess one thing that concerns me is whether PDT will accept
>> overlapping with some of the features that Zend Studio supports, such as
>> the built-in profiler, Zend Framework integration.
>>
>> Being that this would be a conflict of Zend's interests, would these
>> features be disregarded in the PDT?
>>
>> PHPEclipse is supposedly free from commercial interests, so would be
>> more likely to listen to such feature requests.
>
> Andy this is why project diversification is key. This way no one
> company can overly influence the direction. Eclipse encourages and
> really wants more diversification in it's projects. It's why I think
> it's important to get more community involvement, have existing PDT
> committers be more open to new features and enhancements, and for
> adopters to request features and functionality.
>
> PDT should not equal Zend....PDT should equal adopter/community interests.

Exactly - but that is not currently the case, and until it is our time is
better spend working on PHPEclipse which ALREADY HAS some of the features and
for which any expansion is easy to work on. Simply working ones way through a
new code base is something that takes time - which is the one commodity that
is in short supply, so without any incentive to spend that time - why should
WE have to switch?

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #83083 is a reply to message #83068] Tue, 04 November 2008 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org

> the one commodity that is in short supply, so without any incentive to
> spend that time - why should WE have to switch?

For the better ment of the community. May not seem like much, but it's
always easy to come up with reasons not to switch. Maybe once 2.0 is
out the door PHPEclipse could look at migrating, and eventually
contributing back. The community wins out, it helps diversify PDT so
it isn't all Zend committers.

BTW, congrats go to Nick Boldt, works for Red Hat, for becomming a PDT
committer recently. So they are open to bringing in new people, you
just have to put the time and effort into it. So again, it's in
PHPEclipse's hands if you want to actually work together or not.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #83096 is a reply to message #83083] Tue, 04 November 2008 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: silver.zachara.gmail.com

As a normal user I think that would be best to merge this two projects.

This will be the best situation for users of PHP extension in Eclipse and all power will
be contentrate for development.

it's of no importance to the user, whether he uses PHPEclipse or PDT, important is what is
better(or best). I'd rather use one good plugin than two worse.

I think all users share this opinion.
Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #83136 is a reply to message #83096] Thu, 06 November 2008 06:22 Go to previous message
David Muir is currently offline David MuirFriend
Messages: 63
Registered: July 2009
Member
Silver Zachara wrote:
> As a normal user I think that would be best to merge this two projects.

Merging projects isn't always a good idea. If either side wants to
contribute to the other, then great, but competition is usually a good
thing to have, even in OSS environments with few resources. Also, if I'm
not mistaken, the two plugins have fairly different foundations, so
merging the two would take a ton of resources. Not to mention the arguing
between the two as to who's implementation of feature x should be kept,
and who's should be dumped. I think it would be better if the two sides
just drop any animosity, and continue with what they do best. Both plugins
are great, and offer a good range of features. If you don't like one, you
can always use the other. You wouldn't have that choice if they were
merged.

On the matter of contributions, I'd say it's not fair to expect either
side to contribute to the other. If PDT is a fork of PHPEclipse, then
yeah, PDT people should be contributing their stuff back to PHPEclipse,
but since it isn't, there's really no precedent for doing so. That doesn't
mean they can't, but the expectation isn't there since they're unrelated
projects.
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