| Re: Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #80390] |
Wed, 09 August 2006 18:09  |
 Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 260
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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|
Eric,
I am sorry to hear about your frustration.
I've cross-posted this to eclipse.tptp, as I believe that's where this
conversation really needs to happen.
"Eric Kolotyluk" <eric.kolotyluk@creo.com> wrote in message
news:8de7b3c568f41ebfb99df6a3fd310e5d$1@www.eclipse.org...
> I've been trying to use TPTP 4.2 in Eclipse 3.2. I found the whole
> experience exasperatingly difficult, and I'm still not able to use TPTP
> for anything useful.
>
> First off I had trouble installing TPTP from any of the mirror sites
> (because I didn't realize I could get it from the Calisto Discovery Site).
> For a major release the mirror sites should have been tested because the
> documentation said you could install TPTP this way. Finally I did get TPTP
> installed from the discovery site.
>
> Next I tried profiling my application using run ==> profile, but I got all
> kinds of error messages about the Agent Controller not available. After
> much discussion in the newsgroup I discovered that the Integrated Agent
> Controller was not enabled because I ran Eclipse with Java 1.6. The whole
> preference UI experience was not very forthcomming in giving useful
> information to diagnose the problem and correct it.
>
> After getting the profiling to work I found it annoying that I couldn't
> monitor any of the profiling data because the console tab kept taking
> focus and hiding the memory and exexution tabs. It would be better if the
> default profiling perspective put the console tab as a bottom tile and
> left the other monitoring tabs as top tiles so you could monitor more than
> one thing at once.
>
> Next I noticed that while my application was running the contents of the
> memory and execution tabs was not changing as I would expect. I've used
> the profiler in NetBeans and it shows the dynamic memory and execution
> data as I would expect.
>
> Looking through the online documentation I tried to follow "Tutorial:
> Analyzing profiling data" and found there was no way I could get the
> Execution Flow to work as documented.
>
> After a week of trying to get TPTP to do something useful, and with much
> help from other people, I can still do nothing useful with it.
>
> By contrast the first time I tried the Profiler in NetBeans, it took me
> about 10 minutes to get it configured and running (with no help from other
> people) and another 10 minutes to figure out the features well enough to
> get useful information about my application. It was all very slick,
> professional, and mostly automatic. In short, usability was clearly a goal
> in the design and implementation.
>
> Sadly, eventually changes in our application eventually broke the NetBeans
> profiler, and I haven't been able to get any help from anyone to
> inestigate the problem.
>
> One of the main reasons I prefer to use Eclipse as and IDE is that
> generally I find the useability higher than NetBeans (as do most of my
> co-workers). Unfortunately TPTP really falls flat on useability, and I
> would like to make a strong plea for the project goals to focus more on
> useability than on features. What good are features if you can't use them.
>
>
>
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| Re: Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #80418 is a reply to message #80390] |
Wed, 09 August 2006 23:16  |
Randy D. Smith
Messages: 394
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
|
|
He actually did raise the issue originally in eclipse.tptp at the end of
a long thread where, in presumed exasperation, he asked if he was "the
only person having this much trouble with TPTP?" ... the silence was
deafening. I presume that in response to that silence he thought he was
"escalating" the matter by raising the issue over here. That's the way I
categorized his posting when I added an entry to the end of that thread
suggesting the conversation had migrated to eclipse.foundation.
And no, other than trying to answer his original questions and making
note of his eclipse.foundation posting in eclipse.tptp, I didn't have
anything to do with his "escalation process"! :-)
Just thought I'd make it clear it looked (to me) like he'd already tried
what you're suggesting here that he do.
--
RDS
Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> Eric,
>
> I am sorry to hear about your frustration.
>
> I've cross-posted this to eclipse.tptp, as I believe that's where this
> conversation really needs to happen.
>
> "Eric Kolotyluk" <eric.kolotyluk@creo.com> wrote in message
> news:8de7b3c568f41ebfb99df6a3fd310e5d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>>I've been trying to use TPTP 4.2 in Eclipse 3.2. I found the whole
>>experience exasperatingly difficult, and I'm still not able to use TPTP
>>for anything useful.
>>
>>First off I had trouble installing TPTP from any of the mirror sites
>>(because I didn't realize I could get it from the Calisto Discovery Site).
>>For a major release the mirror sites should have been tested because the
>>documentation said you could install TPTP this way. Finally I did get TPTP
>>installed from the discovery site.
>>
>>Next I tried profiling my application using run ==> profile, but I got all
>>kinds of error messages about the Agent Controller not available. After
>>much discussion in the newsgroup I discovered that the Integrated Agent
>>Controller was not enabled because I ran Eclipse with Java 1.6. The whole
>>preference UI experience was not very forthcomming in giving useful
>>information to diagnose the problem and correct it.
>>
>>After getting the profiling to work I found it annoying that I couldn't
>>monitor any of the profiling data because the console tab kept taking
>>focus and hiding the memory and exexution tabs. It would be better if the
>>default profiling perspective put the console tab as a bottom tile and
>>left the other monitoring tabs as top tiles so you could monitor more than
>>one thing at once.
>>
>>Next I noticed that while my application was running the contents of the
>>memory and execution tabs was not changing as I would expect. I've used
>>the profiler in NetBeans and it shows the dynamic memory and execution
>>data as I would expect.
>>
>>Looking through the online documentation I tried to follow "Tutorial:
>>Analyzing profiling data" and found there was no way I could get the
>>Execution Flow to work as documented.
>>
>>After a week of trying to get TPTP to do something useful, and with much
>>help from other people, I can still do nothing useful with it.
>>
>>By contrast the first time I tried the Profiler in NetBeans, it took me
>>about 10 minutes to get it configured and running (with no help from other
>>people) and another 10 minutes to figure out the features well enough to
>>get useful information about my application. It was all very slick,
>>professional, and mostly automatic. In short, usability was clearly a goal
>>in the design and implementation.
>>
>>Sadly, eventually changes in our application eventually broke the NetBeans
>>profiler, and I haven't been able to get any help from anyone to
>>inestigate the problem.
>>
>>One of the main reasons I prefer to use Eclipse as and IDE is that
>>generally I find the useability higher than NetBeans (as do most of my
>>co-workers). Unfortunately TPTP really falls flat on useability, and I
>>would like to make a strong plea for the project goals to focus more on
>>useability than on features. What good are features if you can't use them.
--
RDS
Randy D. Smith randy (dot) d (dot) smith (at) intel (dot) com
Eclipse TPTP Committer, Platform Proj (data collection/agent controller)
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| Re: Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #80478 is a reply to message #80390] |
Thu, 10 August 2006 11:51 |
teknokrat
Messages: 73
Registered: July 2009 |
Member |
|
|
Hear hear. I have no idea what the tptp team is thinking but given he
latent power of TPTP I have not managed to find it useful even for
simple things. I think its unclear what its all about. Being able to
profile a class for memory and cpu utilization should be absolutely trivial.
Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> Eric,
>
> I am sorry to hear about your frustration.
>
> I've cross-posted this to eclipse.tptp, as I believe that's where this
> conversation really needs to happen.
>
> "Eric Kolotyluk" <eric.kolotyluk@creo.com> wrote in message
> news:8de7b3c568f41ebfb99df6a3fd310e5d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>> I've been trying to use TPTP 4.2 in Eclipse 3.2. I found the whole
>> experience exasperatingly difficult, and I'm still not able to use TPTP
>> for anything useful.
>>
>> First off I had trouble installing TPTP from any of the mirror sites
>> (because I didn't realize I could get it from the Calisto Discovery Site).
>> For a major release the mirror sites should have been tested because the
>> documentation said you could install TPTP this way. Finally I did get TPTP
>> installed from the discovery site.
>>
>> Next I tried profiling my application using run ==> profile, but I got all
>> kinds of error messages about the Agent Controller not available. After
>> much discussion in the newsgroup I discovered that the Integrated Agent
>> Controller was not enabled because I ran Eclipse with Java 1.6. The whole
>> preference UI experience was not very forthcomming in giving useful
>> information to diagnose the problem and correct it.
>>
>> After getting the profiling to work I found it annoying that I couldn't
>> monitor any of the profiling data because the console tab kept taking
>> focus and hiding the memory and exexution tabs. It would be better if the
>> default profiling perspective put the console tab as a bottom tile and
>> left the other monitoring tabs as top tiles so you could monitor more than
>> one thing at once.
>>
>> Next I noticed that while my application was running the contents of the
>> memory and execution tabs was not changing as I would expect. I've used
>> the profiler in NetBeans and it shows the dynamic memory and execution
>> data as I would expect.
>>
>> Looking through the online documentation I tried to follow "Tutorial:
>> Analyzing profiling data" and found there was no way I could get the
>> Execution Flow to work as documented.
>>
>> After a week of trying to get TPTP to do something useful, and with much
>> help from other people, I can still do nothing useful with it.
>>
>> By contrast the first time I tried the Profiler in NetBeans, it took me
>> about 10 minutes to get it configured and running (with no help from other
>> people) and another 10 minutes to figure out the features well enough to
>> get useful information about my application. It was all very slick,
>> professional, and mostly automatic. In short, usability was clearly a goal
>> in the design and implementation.
>>
>> Sadly, eventually changes in our application eventually broke the NetBeans
>> profiler, and I haven't been able to get any help from anyone to
>> inestigate the problem.
>>
>> One of the main reasons I prefer to use Eclipse as and IDE is that
>> generally I find the useability higher than NetBeans (as do most of my
>> co-workers). Unfortunately TPTP really falls flat on useability, and I
>> would like to make a strong plea for the project goals to focus more on
>> useability than on features. What good are features if you can't use them.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #80533 is a reply to message #80390] |
Thu, 10 August 2006 15:56 |
Eclipse User |
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|
Originally posted by: nmehrega.ca.ibm.com
This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 0057A1AD852571C6_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I agree that there is a lot of room for usability improvements in TPTP,
but your feedback does help a lot so please keep it coming. I've opened
three defects for addressing the issues posted here:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153451 Generate an
appropriate error message if Java 1.6 is used for JVMPI agent.
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153453 Profiling views
should automatically refresh
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153455 Location of
Console view should be changed
Please feel free to add yourself to the CC list of any of these defects.
Navid Mehregani
--=_alternative 0057A1AD852571C6_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I agree that there is a lot of room
for usability improvements in TPTP, but your feedback does help a lot so
please keep it coming. I've opened three defects for addressing the
issues posted here:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153451
Generate an appropriate error message if Java 1.6 is used
for JVMPI agent.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153453
Profiling views should automatically refresh</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153455
Location of Console view should be changed</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Please feel free to add yourself to
the CC list of any of these defects.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Navid Mehregani</font>
--=_alternative 0057A1AD852571C6_=--
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