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[CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #421966] Tue, 19 August 2008 17:33 Go to next message
Mark Geib is currently offline Mark GeibFriend
Messages: 432
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
As a company we are looking at evaluating Objectivity for some new
projects with potentially HUGE databases.

Currently we are using mysql for the CDO database, but I was thinking
that it may be fairly straight forward to use a true OO database in
place of the relational db, to still have the CDO notifications, etc.

Does this make any sense, or would it be smarter to simply use
Objectivity without CDO at all. That is, persist the EMF model to
Objectivity db directly and do the client notifications another way.

Any input will be appreciated.

Mark.
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #421975 is a reply to message #421966] Tue, 19 August 2008 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Simon Mc Duff is currently offline Simon Mc DuffFriend
Messages: 596
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Good news for you Mark.

Since I've been using Objectivity for the last 5 years... I can tell you
that Objectivity is a really great tools.
Another good news for you is I have an implementation of EMF/CDO/OO that I
would like to give to the community very.. very soon. I've been working
with them to finalize a few details.

You have pros and cons of using Objectivity directly and CDO with
Objectivity.

Objectivity without EMF / CDO
PROS:
- VERY VERY fast
- Use tools/objects developped by them directly.
- Easy to use.
CONS:
- Do not have any generation of JAVA Code.
- Locking problems
- DeadLock
- You could end-up having problem
- It is easy to use... but at the same time you really need to
understand how Objectivity is working if you don't want to shot yourself in
the foot.

Ibrahim please correct me if I'm wrong


EMF / CDO / OO
Pros:
- All the features that CDO have. Notifications.. etc..
- Easy clustering
- No Locking problem
- No Deadlock
- You can change your back-end with another mechanism if you customer don't
want to use Objectivity Inc.
- You could move some classes to another databases.. or connect easily
external data through EMF.
- Benefits EMF Features.
- All new feature EMF /CDO can provides in the future.
- Really you are not attached from any specific database... this is really
good!!

cons:
- In general, it will be a bit slower. You add another layer.
- Could be faster when you have many applications accessing your database
because of Objectivity Architecture.

I have also an implementation of EMF/OO but it still have the same CONS then
OO.
I compared EMF/OO with Hibernate, and I can tell you that Hibernate is
around 3 to 52 times slower than EMF/OO.

You can ask me almost any question about Objectivity... I think I could help
you. Otherwise you can ask directly support guys they are really nice!!

I also played a lot with Objectivity C++.. so if you have question there as
well!!

Let me know if you want more details.

Simon






"Mark Geib" <mark.geib@echostar.com> a
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #421976 is a reply to message #421975] Tue, 19 August 2008 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark Geib is currently offline Mark GeibFriend
Messages: 432
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Simon,

Thanks for the reply.

So I think you are saying Objectivity is great, but not transparent, and
maybe using Objectivity via EMF/CDO reduces these issues somewhat.?

I am anxious to here your updates on this topic.

Mark.

Simon McDuff wrote:
> Good news for you Mark.
>
> Since I've been using Objectivity for the last 5 years... I can tell you
> that Objectivity is a really great tools.
> Another good news for you is I have an implementation of EMF/CDO/OO that I
> would like to give to the community very.. very soon. I've been working
> with them to finalize a few details.
>
> You have pros and cons of using Objectivity directly and CDO with
> Objectivity.
>
> Objectivity without EMF / CDO
> PROS:
> - VERY VERY fast
> - Use tools/objects developped by them directly.
> - Easy to use.
> CONS:
> - Do not have any generation of JAVA Code.
> - Locking problems
> - DeadLock
> - You could end-up having problem
> - It is easy to use... but at the same time you really need to
> understand how Objectivity is working if you don't want to shot yourself in
> the foot.
>
> Ibrahim please correct me if I'm wrong
>
>
> EMF / CDO / OO
> Pros:
> - All the features that CDO have. Notifications.. etc..
> - Easy clustering
> - No Locking problem
> - No Deadlock
> - You can change your back-end with another mechanism if you customer don't
> want to use Objectivity Inc.
> - You could move some classes to another databases.. or connect easily
> external data through EMF.
> - Benefits EMF Features.
> - All new feature EMF /CDO can provides in the future.
> - Really you are not attached from any specific database... this is really
> good!!
>
> cons:
> - In general, it will be a bit slower. You add another layer.
> - Could be faster when you have many applications accessing your database
> because of Objectivity Architecture.
>
> I have also an implementation of EMF/OO but it still have the same CONS then
> OO.
> I compared EMF/OO with Hibernate, and I can tell you that Hibernate is
> around 3 to 52 times slower than EMF/OO.
>
> You can ask me almost any question about Objectivity... I think I could help
> you. Otherwise you can ask directly support guys they are really nice!!
>
> I also played a lot with Objectivity C++.. so if you have question there as
> well!!
>
> Let me know if you want more details.
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mark Geib" <mark.geib@echostar.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> g8evv9$tc5$1@build.eclipse.org...
>> As a company we are looking at evaluating Objectivity for some new
>> projects with potentially HUGE databases.
>>
>> Currently we are using mysql for the CDO database, but I was thinking that
>> it may be fairly straight forward to use a true OO database in place of
>> the relational db, to still have the CDO notifications, etc.
>>
>> Does this make any sense, or would it be smarter to simply use Objectivity
>> without CDO at all. That is, persist the EMF model to Objectivity db
>> directly and do the client notifications another way.
>>
>> Any input will be appreciated.
>>
>> Mark.
>
>
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #421977 is a reply to message #421976] Tue, 19 August 2008 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Simon Mc Duff is currently offline Simon Mc DuffFriend
Messages: 596
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Mark,

Let's say to have code robust.. you will have to have in your business logic
some call to lock/unlock objects, updates containers, etc,etc. I know I`ve
been through it.

For real-time applications, you would like to have this trade-off. Also for
applications that only one process is writing to the database and the other
process are reading you don't need to do that much to achieve robustness.

For applications that needs
- Multiple Writers on the same container / Multiple readers
- Concentrate on Business logic.

I experienced that EMF/CDO/OO is really a good fit!!!
I've been using a old adapter EMF/CDO/OO 0.8.0 that I implemented and it is
working very well since last september in PROD.
In our cases it simplified these aspects :
- Concentrate on Business logic.
- Eliminitate DeadLock problems that you could have and don't want to deal
with it
- Eliminate Locking problems that you could have and don't want to deal with
it.
- Multiple writers for the same containers.
- Easy clustering management.

and we had update notifications!! with CDO.

We will be able to have external references support soon... so with these we
are bless!!!

I will suggest that first you look what kind of applications you are
developping.. based on that you can decide

- Objectivity Inc.
- Relationnel Database
- EMF/CDO/OO

I believe that each of them are useful and have theirs places. It is why I
really like emf... since we are able to use all of them at the same time :
- EMF/CDO/OO
- EMF/CDO/Teneo
- EMF/XML

All at the same time through the same resourceset!!!

Simon


"Mark Geib" <mark.geib@echostar.com> a
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #421991 is a reply to message #421975] Wed, 20 August 2008 08:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cedric Brun is currently offline Cedric BrunFriend
Messages: 431
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Simon,

You're considering open-sourcing this backend right ? That would be great news ! Do you know when can we expect this contribution to appear in the modeling CVS ?

Cédric

Simon McDuff wrote:

> Good news for you Mark.
>
> Since I've been using Objectivity for the last 5 years... I can tell you
> that Objectivity is a really great tools.
> Another good news for you is I have an implementation of EMF/CDO/OO that I
> would like to give to the community very.. very soon. I've been working
> with them to finalize a few details.
>
> You have pros and cons of using Objectivity directly and CDO with
> Objectivity.
>
> Objectivity without EMF / CDO
> PROS:
> - VERY VERY fast
> - Use tools/objects developped by them directly.
> - Easy to use.
> CONS:
> - Do not have any generation of JAVA Code.
> - Locking problems
> - DeadLock
> - You could end-up having problem
> - It is easy to use... but at the same time you really need to
> understand how Objectivity is working if you don't want to shot yourself
> in the foot.
>
> Ibrahim please correct me if I'm wrong
>
>
> EMF / CDO / OO
> Pros:
> - All the features that CDO have. Notifications.. etc..
> - Easy clustering
> - No Locking problem
> - No Deadlock
> - You can change your back-end with another mechanism if you customer
> don't want to use Objectivity Inc.
> - You could move some classes to another databases.. or connect easily
> external data through EMF.
> - Benefits EMF Features.
> - All new feature EMF /CDO can provides in the future.
> - Really you are not attached from any specific database... this is really
> good!!
>
> cons:
> - In general, it will be a bit slower. You add another layer.
> - Could be faster when you have many applications accessing your database
> because of Objectivity Architecture.
>
> I have also an implementation of EMF/OO but it still have the same CONS
> then OO.
> I compared EMF/OO with Hibernate, and I can tell you that Hibernate is
> around 3 to 52 times slower than EMF/OO.
>
> You can ask me almost any question about Objectivity... I think I could
> help you. Otherwise you can ask directly support guys they are really
> nice!!
>
> I also played a lot with Objectivity C++.. so if you have question there
> as well!!
>
> Let me know if you want more details.
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mark Geib" <mark.geib@echostar.com> a �crit dans le message de news:
> g8evv9$tc5$1@build.eclipse.org...
>> As a company we are looking at evaluating Objectivity for some new
>> projects with potentially HUGE databases.
>>
>> Currently we are using mysql for the CDO database, but I was thinking
>> that it may be fairly straight forward to use a true OO database in place
>> of the relational db, to still have the CDO notifications, etc.
>>
>> Does this make any sense, or would it be smarter to simply use
>> Objectivity without CDO at all. That is, persist the EMF model to
>> Objectivity db directly and do the client notifications another way.
>>
>> Any input will be appreciated.
>>
>> Mark.


http://cedric.brun.io news and articles on eclipse and eclipse modeling.
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422022 is a reply to message #421991] Wed, 20 August 2008 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Simon Mc Duff is currently offline Simon Mc DuffFriend
Messages: 596
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Cedric,

What I will provide is CDO Adapter for objectivity, not the actual
source-code of Objectivity... I don't have that :-)

To use it you will be able to download a trial of Objectivity for 60 days.
After that it is up to you to decide if you want to pay to use it.

I asked some feature for Objectivity 9.4.1 to complete my work. Once this is
released, I will be in position to release the code.
I hope (because I can only hope) it will be released in 1 month.

Simon


"C
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422024 is a reply to message #422022] Wed, 20 August 2008 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cedric Brun is currently offline Cedric BrunFriend
Messages: 431
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Simon McDuff wrote:

> Hi Cedric,
>
> What I will provide is CDO Adapter for objectivity, not the actual
> source-code of Objectivity... I don't have that :-)

Of course :)

> To use it you will be able to download a trial of Objectivity for 60 days.
> After that it is up to you to decide if you want to pay to use it.
>
> I asked some feature for Objectivity 9.4.1 to complete my work. Once this
> is released, I will be in position to release the code.
> I hope (because I can only hope) it will be released in 1 month.

I can only hope too, the more CDO has backend, the more the technology gets validated :)

Cédric

> Simon
>
>
> "C�dric Brun" <cedric.brun@obeo.fr> a �crit dans le message de news:
> g8gj7p$7ar$1@build.eclipse.org...
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> You're considering open-sourcing this backend right ? That would be great
>> news ! Do you know when can we expect this contribution to appear in the
>> modeling CVS ?
>>
>> C�dric
>>
>> Simon McDuff wrote:
>>
>>> Good news for you Mark.
>>>
>>> Since I've been using Objectivity for the last 5 years... I can tell you
>>> that Objectivity is a really great tools.
>>> Another good news for you is I have an implementation of EMF/CDO/OO that
>>> I
>>> would like to give to the community very.. very soon. I've been working
>>> with them to finalize a few details.
>>>
>>> You have pros and cons of using Objectivity directly and CDO with
>>> Objectivity.
>>>
>>> Objectivity without EMF / CDO
>>> PROS:
>>> - VERY VERY fast
>>> - Use tools/objects developped by them directly.
>>> - Easy to use.
>>> CONS:
>>> - Do not have any generation of JAVA Code.
>>> - Locking problems
>>> - DeadLock
>>> - You could end-up having problem
>>> - It is easy to use... but at the same time you really need to
>>> understand how Objectivity is working if you don't want to shot yourself
>>> in the foot.
>>>
>>> Ibrahim please correct me if I'm wrong
>>>
>>>
>>> EMF / CDO / OO
>>> Pros:
>>> - All the features that CDO have. Notifications.. etc..
>>> - Easy clustering
>>> - No Locking problem
>>> - No Deadlock
>>> - You can change your back-end with another mechanism if you customer
>>> don't want to use Objectivity Inc.
>>> - You could move some classes to another databases.. or connect easily
>>> external data through EMF.
>>> - Benefits EMF Features.
>>> - All new feature EMF /CDO can provides in the future.
>>> - Really you are not attached from any specific database... this is
>>> really
>>> good!!
>>>
>>> cons:
>>> - In general, it will be a bit slower. You add another layer.
>>> - Could be faster when you have many applications accessing your
>>> database because of Objectivity Architecture.
>>>
>>> I have also an implementation of EMF/OO but it still have the same CONS
>>> then OO.
>>> I compared EMF/OO with Hibernate, and I can tell you that Hibernate is
>>> around 3 to 52 times slower than EMF/OO.
>>>
>>> You can ask me almost any question about Objectivity... I think I could
>>> help you. Otherwise you can ask directly support guys they are really
>>> nice!!
>>>
>>> I also played a lot with Objectivity C++.. so if you have question there
>>> as well!!
>>>
>>> Let me know if you want more details.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Mark Geib" <mark.geib@echostar.com> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>>> g8evv9$tc5$1@build.eclipse.org...
>>>> As a company we are looking at evaluating Objectivity for some new
>>>> projects with potentially HUGE databases.
>>>>
>>>> Currently we are using mysql for the CDO database, but I was thinking
>>>> that it may be fairly straight forward to use a true OO database in
>>>> place
>>>> of the relational db, to still have the CDO notifications, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Does this make any sense, or would it be smarter to simply use
>>>> Objectivity without CDO at all. That is, persist the EMF model to
>>>> Objectivity db directly and do the client notifications another way.
>>>>
>>>> Any input will be appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Mark.
>>


http://cedric.brun.io news and articles on eclipse and eclipse modeling.
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422026 is a reply to message #422024] Wed, 20 August 2008 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Simon Mc Duff is currently offline Simon Mc DuffFriend
Messages: 596
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
You are completelty right!!

I have also a benchmark framework that will help the customer to decide
which Back-End is good in which situation.
But you already know that since you subscribed to

237158: Provide Performance TestCase
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=237158

:-)


"C
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422673 is a reply to message #421977] Fri, 12 September 2008 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stevo Jian is currently offline Stevo JianFriend
Messages: 1
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Simon,
I am interested in using the EMF/CDO/OO combination for a project at work
for proof of concept.
Since I just very recently learned about the existence of the CDO package,
I have a couple questions concerning how to deploy it.
1) Given an Objectivity database and the soon-to-be-released CDO/OO
adapter, is there anything that needs to be changed within the CDO package
specific the the database's schema? In other words, if I were to make
modifications to the database's schema, do I have to modify the CDO code
as well?
2) Would it be easy to use another Eclipse plug-in to view and edit the
resource provided by CDO? I know I would have to change the editor code in
the plug-in to use CDO. But besides that, are there any other big
modifications that need to be made to CDO?
3)Would it be possible for me to try out a copy of your old CDO
Objectivity adapter?
Thanks for reading,
Stevo
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422676 is a reply to message #422673] Fri, 12 September 2008 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Simon Mc Duff is currently offline Simon Mc DuffFriend
Messages: 596
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Stevo Jian" <xsjian@rockwellcollins.com> a
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422677 is a reply to message #422676] Fri, 12 September 2008 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eike Stepper is currently offline Eike StepperFriend
Messages: 6466
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Simon McDuff schrieb:
> [...]
> You don't need to do anything at the client side!! This is why CDO is
> fantastic.
> You could even use at the same time in the same resourceset, Repository from
> teneo, OO, DBStore and XMIResource... This is fantastic!! :-)
>
Simon, I will nominate you as the new marketing chief! ;-)


Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422678 is a reply to message #422677] Fri, 12 September 2008 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Simon Mc Duff is currently offline Simon Mc DuffFriend
Messages: 596
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Should I have a salary raise ? :-)

"Eike Stepper" <stepper@esc-net.de> a
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422680 is a reply to message #422678] Fri, 12 September 2008 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eike Stepper is currently offline Eike StepperFriend
Messages: 6466
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Simon McDuff schrieb:
> Should I have a salary raise ? :-)
>
Hehe, if the > 4,000,000 $ that Ohloh estimates for CDO + Net4j were
real you'd get your piece!

http://www.ohloh.net/projects/8908?p=CDO
http://www.ohloh.net/projects/8907?p=Net4j

> "Eike Stepper" <stepper@esc-net.de> a écrit dans le message de news:
> gae1h9$4lm$4@build.eclipse.org...
>
>> Simon McDuff schrieb:
>>
>>> [...]
>>> You don't need to do anything at the client side!! This is why CDO is
>>> fantastic.
>>> You could even use at the same time in the same resourceset, Repository
>>> from teneo, OO, DBStore and XMIResource... This is fantastic!! :-)
>>>
>>>
>> Simon, I will nominate you as the new marketing chief! ;-)
>>
>
>
>


Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422686 is a reply to message #422676] Fri, 12 September 2008 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Schindl is currently offline Thomas SchindlFriend
Messages: 6520
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
[...]
>> 2) Would it be easy to use another Eclipse plug-in to view and edit the
>> resource provided by CDO? I know I would have to change the editor code in
>> the plug-in to use CDO. But besides that, are there any other big
>> modifications that need to be made to CDO?
> You don't need to do anything at the client side!! This is why CDO is
> fantastic.
> You could even use at the same time in the same resourceset, Repository from
> teneo, OO, DBStore and XMIResource... This is fantastic!! :-)

This example proofs Simon is right with his statement I wrote an example
application [1] where you can switch the datasource. Currently I have
XMI, CDO, Teneo. Cool eh?

I'm just switchting the code CDO 2.0 to get "Passive Update" working
transparently (it already works in my local workspace and with the
Tree-Support from Databinding 3.4 is too cool).

Tom

[1] http://tom-eclipse-dev.blogspot.com/2008/09/exploring-new-te chnologies-part-of.html

--
B e s t S o l u t i o n . at
------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Tom Schindl JFace-Committer
------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Re: [CDO] Objectivity as CDO database [message #422934 is a reply to message #422024] Fri, 19 September 2008 10:15 Go to previous message
Simon Mc Duff is currently offline Simon Mc DuffFriend
Messages: 596
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Cedric, Mark,

I spoke with Objectivity and they "think" they will release Objectivity
9.4.1 end of October, beginning of November.
Again this date could change.

I will be sure to be ready for these dates!!

Simon

"C
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