| Component models and interoperability [message #37630] |
Mon, 15 March 2004 20:32  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: cranberry.pobox.com
I'm evaluating eclipse -- especially RCP -- as a platform for app
development. What I'm wondering is to what extent people are thinking
about the issue of component reuse in other contexts. For instance, I'm
writing a plugin that I know I'd like to reuse in Mozilla. For now that
doesn't seem possible, -- but it's an example of the kind of thing one
would really like to be able to do. I'm wondering what people are thinking
about this issue? I understand that OSGi was brought into eclipse 3.0 for
dynamic plugins, but what interests me about it most is that it's a
standard.
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| Re: Component models and interoperability [message #37650 is a reply to message #37630] |
Tue, 16 March 2004 16:16  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: jeff_mcaffer.REMOVE.ca.ibm.com
There are various scenarios in which people are writing function that is
independent of Eclipse. For example, both SWT and JFace can be run outside
of Eclipse. The main issue is that they are not able to use the features of
Eclipse. The plugins amount to libraries that could just as well have been
included on the VM's classpath. Can you give more detail in what you are
thinking of as reuse in Mozilla for example?
As far as OSGi and Eclipse, yes, OSGi bring several things. The main
challenges with dynamic plugins are making the mechanism work and getting
plugins to handle it. The former is done by the OSGi framework. The latter
is more challenging is has to be done by plugin developers. For example, my
plugin can't go away if yours is tenaciously hanging on to references to me.
OSGi services and Eclipse extensions are complementary mechanisms for
managing these references.
The standards aspect is a big win. It opens many doors for Eclipse and also
brings in more interested parties.
Jeff
"Phil Mitchell" <cranberry@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:c353tm$o32$1@eclipse.org...
> I'm evaluating eclipse -- especially RCP -- as a platform for app
> development. What I'm wondering is to what extent people are thinking
> about the issue of component reuse in other contexts. For instance, I'm
> writing a plugin that I know I'd like to reuse in Mozilla. For now that
> doesn't seem possible, -- but it's an example of the kind of thing one
> would really like to be able to do. I'm wondering what people are thinking
> about this issue? I understand that OSGi was brought into eclipse 3.0 for
> dynamic plugins, but what interests me about it most is that it's a
> standard.
>
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| Re: Component models and interoperability [message #37694 is a reply to message #37650] |
Tue, 16 March 2004 18:10 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: cranberry.pobox.com
> Eclipse. The plugins amount to libraries that could just as well have been
> included on the VM's classpath. Can you give more detail in what you are
> thinking of as reuse in Mozilla for example?
Yes, of course plugins can be reused as libraries -- to the extent that
they're not wired into eclipse api. But then they're not really functional
units anymore, which in a way is what is so appealing about the plugin
concept.
An example of reuse in mozilla: I'm exploring novel interfaces for
browsing large hierarchies of objects -- which applies to source code
hierarchies, file system hierarchies, trees of web bookmarks,
bioinformatics data, etc.
As for OSGi, I wonder to what extent this standard will influence eclipse
plugin developers. I don't know much about the OSGi world and whether we
can look forward some day to having a selection of bundles to rival what
we've got for emacs packages.
> As far as OSGi and Eclipse, yes, OSGi bring several things. The main
> challenges with dynamic plugins are making the mechanism work and getting
> plugins to handle it. The former is done by the OSGi framework. The latter
> is more challenging is has to be done by plugin developers. For example, my
> plugin can't go away if yours is tenaciously hanging on to references to me.
> OSGi services and Eclipse extensions are complementary mechanisms for
> managing these references.
> The standards aspect is a big win. It opens many doors for Eclipse and also
> brings in more interested parties.
> Jeff
> "Phil Mitchell" <cranberry@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:c353tm$o32$1@eclipse.org...
> > I'm evaluating eclipse -- especially RCP -- as a platform for app
> > development. What I'm wondering is to what extent people are thinking
> > about the issue of component reuse in other contexts. For instance, I'm
> > writing a plugin that I know I'd like to reuse in Mozilla. For now that
> > doesn't seem possible, -- but it's an example of the kind of thing one
> > would really like to be able to do. I'm wondering what people are thinking
> > about this issue? I understand that OSGi was brought into eclipse 3.0 for
> > dynamic plugins, but what interests me about it most is that it's a
> > standard.
> >
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| Re: Component models and interoperability [message #37820 is a reply to message #37694] |
Tue, 16 March 2004 22:25 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: jeff_mcaffer.REMOVE.ca.ibm.com
"Phil Mitchell" <cranberry@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:c37fvd$er3$1@eclipse.org...
> > Eclipse. The plugins amount to libraries that could just as well have
been
> > included on the VM's classpath. Can you give more detail in what you
are
> > thinking of as reuse in Mozilla for example?
>
> Yes, of course plugins can be reused as libraries -- to the extent that
> they're not wired into eclipse api. But then they're not really functional
> units anymore, which in a way is what is so appealing about the plugin
> concept.
>
> An example of reuse in mozilla: I'm exploring novel interfaces for
> browsing large hierarchies of objects -- which applies to source code
> hierarchies, file system hierarchies, trees of web bookmarks,
> bioinformatics data, etc.
Interesting. So how does this tie into the Java world? How is Mozilla
interacting with a running Eclipse?
> As for OSGi, I wonder to what extent this standard will influence eclipse
> plugin developers. I don't know much about the OSGi world and whether we
> can look forward some day to having a selection of bundles to rival what
> we've got for emacs packages.
bundle == plugin. All eclipse plugins can/do/will run as OSGi bundles on
the Eclipse OSGi framework. We are working through the OGSi community to
unify/standardize the two worlds. Not sure how many emacs packages there
are out there but there are quite a few Eclipse plugins.
Jeff
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| Re: Component models and interoperability [message #37919 is a reply to message #37820] |
Wed, 17 March 2004 14:56 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: cranberry.pobox.com
Jeff McAffer wrote:
> > An example of reuse in mozilla: I'm exploring novel interfaces for
> > browsing large hierarchies of objects -- which applies to source code
> > hierarchies, file system hierarchies, trees of web bookmarks,
> > bioinformatics data, etc.
> Interesting. So how does this tie into the Java world? How is Mozilla
> interacting with a running Eclipse?
Well I don't think it does tie into the java world -- that's what I've
been pondering. Here we have two very impressive platforms for application
development (Mozilla and Eclipse), sharing many of the same goals and
design strategies, and yet developers are forced to choose one platform or
the other. It's an interesting problem -- I'm not implying there's an easy
solution or that the designs should have been different. I'm just a lowly
developer trying to maximize my impact.
> > As for OSGi, I wonder to what extent this standard will influence eclipse
> > plugin developers. I don't know much about the OSGi world and whether we
> > can look forward some day to having a selection of bundles to rival what
> > we've got for emacs packages.
> bundle == plugin. All eclipse plugins can/do/will run as OSGi bundles on
> the Eclipse OSGi framework. We are working through the OGSi community to
> unify/standardize the two worlds. Not sure how many emacs packages there
> are out there but there are quite a few Eclipse plugins.
Yes, but i imagine many plugins will be so tied into the eclipse api that
they won't be usable in other OSGi frameworks, and vice-versa for OSGi
bundles from elsewhere. Please correct me if that's wrong.
As for plugins and packages -- eclipse-plugins.info lists 445 plugins. My
guess is that Emacs packages are more numerous by an order of magnitude or
more.
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| Re: Component models and interoperability [message #38303 is a reply to message #37919] |
Mon, 22 March 2004 21:40 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: jeff_mcaffer.REMOVE.ca.ibm.com
"Phil Mitchell" <cranberry@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:c39oub$1gp$1@eclipse.org...
> Jeff McAffer wrote:
>
> Yes, but i imagine many plugins will be so tied into the eclipse api that
> they won't be usable in other OSGi frameworks, and vice-versa for OSGi
> bundles from elsewhere. Please correct me if that's wrong.
If we can get Eclipse and OSGi to align on the basics, one should be able to
run their Eclipse stuff on any OSGi framework. Keep in mind however that
you may need to bring along a number of other bundles/plugins as OSGi
(likewise the Eclipse runtime) is really pretty rudimentary. All it does is
give the notion of module and classloading with some supporting structures
like services and extensions. All the UI stuff is just a UI framework on
top of that.
Jeff
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