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Putting the Eclipse platform to work [message #326934]

Thu, 03 April 2008 08:32

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: chris.senior.virgin.net

Imagine if the Java virtual machine user download was a single executable,
some native libraries and the minimum possible set of Java libraries
(java.lang, etc.) - I'm thinking something < 1MB download.

Next imagine the basic Eclipse OSGi runtime was also deployed with that
stripped down VM. (still ~ 1MB??)

Now imagine all the extra "fluff" in the modern Java VM (SQL, Utils,
Swing, CORBA, etc. etc.) was packaged up as a set of Eclipse plugins and
these plugins were placed on a "well known" download location (e.g. where
the VM came from).

Finally imagine that an application could be deployed to that Eclipse VM
and the VM would download all the extra plugins it needs to run the
application.

I think this platform would be great for Java. Here are some reasons:

1) The download size of the VM would be tiny - I find it hard to convince
users to go download 60MB of code I know they only need 3MB of!
2) It stops "Java" fragmenting. Java is just the language, everything else
is a downloadable library.

I'm sure there are loads of other benefits - what do other people think?

With Java now being open source this kind of thing should be easy right?

- Chris

Re: Putting the Eclipse platform to work [message #326938 is a reply to message #326934]

Thu, 03 April 2008 08:54

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

Chris,

It's an interesting idea. Java does have stripped down versions such as
JavaME. And the eRCP project exploits this type of thing for small
device support; it exploits very light weight implementation of JAXP.
So definitely other people are thinking about that same types of things.
Sun still has a lot of restrictions on what you can do with their
libraries so there may well be rules about subsetting it differently
than what they feel is an appropriate subset...

Chris wrote:
> Imagine if the Java virtual machine user download was a single
> executable, some native libraries and the minimum possible set of Java
> libraries (java.lang, etc.) - I'm thinking something < 1MB download.
> Next imagine the basic Eclipse OSGi runtime was also deployed with
> that stripped down VM. (still ~ 1MB??)
>
> Now imagine all the extra "fluff" in the modern Java VM (SQL, Utils,
> Swing, CORBA, etc. etc.) was packaged up as a set of Eclipse plugins
> and these plugins were placed on a "well known" download location
> (e.g. where the VM came from).
>
> Finally imagine that an application could be deployed to that Eclipse
> VM and the VM would download all the extra plugins it needs to run the
> application.
>
> I think this platform would be great for Java. Here are some reasons:
>
> 1) The download size of the VM would be tiny - I find it hard to
> convince users to go download 60MB of code I know they only need 3MB of!
> 2) It stops "Java" fragmenting. Java is just the language, everything
> else is a downloadable library.
>
> I'm sure there are loads of other benefits - what do other people think?
>
> With Java now being open source this kind of thing should be easy right?
>
> - Chris
>

Re: Putting the Eclipse platform to work [message #326946 is a reply to message #326934]

Thu, 03 April 2008 09:53

Eclipse User

While I'm not sure it can be applied to the JVM itself, have you checked
out http://www.eclipse.org/maya/

Maya uses a bootstrap (small) launcher to allow the user to select a
pre-configured profile. The profiles (from the server) determine just
how many plugins get downloaded. The can also be updated later to
include new plugins (which also get downloaded).

PW

--
Paul Webster
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Re: Putting the Eclipse platform to work [message #326979 is a reply to message #326938]

Thu, 03 April 2008 16:21

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: chris.senior.virgin.net

J2ME is aimed at mobile devices - whilst it trims the libraries down, it's
only to the level that can be supported by mobile platforms (phones, PDAs
etc.).

What I was thinking of was cutting the normal VM down to the bone then
runtime deploying everything (and anything) else.

I hadn't looked into the licensing on the Sun VM and libs - it was more of
a half brained idea. I guess the GNU classpath (or similar) could be used
instead?

I really thought web browser plugins (more generic than applets) might
work better if the runtime could be deployed as small as possible. Get
down to the size of Microsoft Silverlight (or less so, Adobe Flash). It
could make Java/Eclipse a more viable RIA platform?

- Chris

Re: Putting the Eclipse platform to work [message #326980 is a reply to message #326946]

Thu, 03 April 2008 16:25

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: chris.senior.virgin.net

Interesting, I will have to have a play with Maya! It looks very cool.

I guess my idea was just taking Maya one step further - to the whole VM.

Are there any tools anyone knows of that I can use to analyse class,
package and plugin dependencies to see if I have a fighting chance with
this?

- Chris

Re: Putting the Eclipse platform to work [message #327013 is a reply to message #326934]

Fri, 04 April 2008 12:07

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: thunderaxiom.gmail.com

Chris skrev den 03-04-2008 14:32:
> Imagine if the Java virtual machine user download was a single
> executable, some native libraries and the minimum possible set of Java
> libraries (java.lang, etc.) - I'm thinking something < 1MB download.
> Next imagine the basic Eclipse OSGi runtime was also deployed with that
> stripped down VM. (still ~ 1MB??)

Work is being done on reducing the initial download size of the Sun JVM.
You may want to take a look on

http://blogs.sun.com/jtc/entry/reduced_footprint_java_se_bri nging

--
THorbjørn

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