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| Re: Blatant statement of my mood/opinion [message #1697012 is a reply to message #1697006] |
Sun, 31 May 2015 05:55   |
 Ed Merks
Messages: 33216
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Daniel,
Comments below.
On 30/05/2015 9:40 PM, Daniel wrote:
> Hi Eike and Ed,
>
> as i perceive you are really doing a great job scanning this subforum
> for questions/comments/remarks!
We try.
>
> If i may (which is a rather rhetorical start, as i will continue
> anyway) i would like to just put my - lets call it - gutfeelings into
> sentences poured into this posting. Some glasses of wine and a rather
> one-sided DFB-Pokalfinal(e) will also help me keep focused on this
> here :)
>
> gutfeeling 1: this installer just adds a level of complexity
> (compared to just downloading/unzipping the edition) if i do not have
> special needs (a.k.a. i just want to install one of the editions
> displayed on the eclipse.org/downloads )
Yes and no. There are two complexities with the download packages,
especially on Windows, that bite the user. One is they need to unzip,
and the Windows built-in unzip is stupid, and can't get the job done, so
the user doesn't get as far as unzipping in order to run. Next they try
to run, and then an appropriate JVM isn't detected so eclipse.exe fails,
error code 13. The installer on windows is a self extracting exe, so
it just runs without unzipping. It also detects all the JVMs on your
system and if there isn't an appropriate one to run the installer
itself, it instructs you where to get one. Also when installing the
product, the installer ensures that there is an appropriate JVM and
instructs you where to get one if there isn't; it ensures a correct JVM
is used, even if it's not on the PATH. This second problem is pretty
much a daily issue on the newcomers forum.
>
> gutfeeling 2: if i use this installer i feel insecure using the
> eclipse editions installed via this installer because i (currently) do
> not feel myself in control of the contents of an install (i am for
> example still puzzled where my plugin-directories have gone to hide.)
Bundle pools are something you've not used before. Of course you can
disable that if you don't like it, but it will save you a heck of a lot
of time and disk spaces if you use it. Especially later if you need to
provision a target platform for your IDE, you won't be waiting to
download all the bundles a second time. Or if you decide to install
another package, you won't be downloading duplicating and filling your
disk with them.
>
> gutfeeling 3: if i use this installer i will have to really dig into
> its bowels to find out how (and in which cases!) all this
> artifact-resolving is needed and how its configured and how it works.
Why? Do you worry about with Check for Updates does?
>
> I just was about to setup an eclipse environment on a new pc and i had
> to decide if i wanted to use your new and shiny installer or if i just
> download the required editions zip.
>
> After having (some weeks ago) told you about my adventures concerning
> the installed JDK not being found (which you took care of very quickly
> and successfully :) ) i have started playing around with this
> installer of yours, trying out installing different
> versions/editions/32_64bits. Installing different Eclipse Flavours
> worked flawlessly! But this way i came to realize that none of the
> installed eclipse-editions had a plugin or features directory in it.
How was that a problem?
> In the end i just downloaded the zip and was up and running like usual.
To each their own.
>
> Greetings
> Daniel
>
> P.S.: I poured all of this in this posting not because i want to
> simply rant about it ... i just think i might not be the only one who
> has this experience ... and i think it might help this installer
> getting perceived as THE way to go if everyone feels secure and "at
> the helm" of his/her eclipse installations.
Perhaps you should feel you have an improved control system, but of
course it's different from before. Bundle pools are optional, so you
can download and install duplicates like you did before, if that makes
you feel secure.
> Also if there is some URL which might explain the plugin/features
> "magic" i would appreciate it being mentioned in a reply maybe? TIA! :)
Bundle pools are a feature of p2 that we simply exploit (optionally):
https://wiki.eclipse.org/Equinox/p2/Getting_Started#Bundle_pooling
I can certainly understand that such a concept can be disconcerting if
it's new and unfamiliar, but the advantages are many. I personally
install a number of dedicated IDEs to work with and contribute to
different projects at Eclipse, and it's now incredibly fast to install
and update, and they're easier to maintain...
Ed Merks
Professional Support: https://www.macromodeling.com/
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| Re: Blatant statement of my mood/opinion [message #1697979 is a reply to message #1697960] |
Wed, 10 June 2015 05:10 |
Ed Merks
Messages: 33216
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Silvio,
Comments below.
On 09/06/2015 11:24 PM, Silvio Bierman wrote:
> Old habits often stay around because they just work and because many
> over-engineered alternatives add little more than complexity and mere
> weight.
I'm a little doubtful that you understand the benefits of bundle pools.
The context of your comments about trying out new Eclipse builds is
exactly what Oomph makes so easy and fast. But the fact you're not
comfortable with something new prevents you from realizing this
benefit. That's your choice.
> I need multiple Eclipse versions with different versions of plugins
> around at the same time and the ability to swap them in and out fast.
I'm not sure what swapping in an out means, but with Oomph you could
have 100 different versions at the same time with the disk footprint of
a tiny fraction of that. And you can delete them to your heart's
content. But alas, you're not comfortable with p2's bundle pool support
which has been around for years...
> The last thing I need is a new form of DLL hell.
I'm not sure how DLLs or hell is involved.
> If I wanted that I would not have ditched Windows as a development
> environment sometime around Vista.
I don't suppose anyone wants anything to do with hell, DLLs or otherwise.
>
> The setup could do what is needed at installation time (like check for
> a Java runtime or install one if no suitable one is found)
There are license issues with actually installing a Java runtime...
> and then get out of the way.
By "in the way," you mean you don't like global preference management I
assume. Of course you don't seem to realize the benefits, but there's
no point in preaching to those who choose not to hear.
> That last important thing seems to be something that unfortunately was
> not designed into Oomph.
You mean getting out of the way or installing a JRE?
Ed Merks
Professional Support: https://www.macromodeling.com/
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