Eclipse Community Forums
Forum Search:

Search      Help    Register    Login    Home
Home » Eclipse Projects » scout » In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework.
In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1633407] Tue, 24 February 2015 21:22 Go to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias ZimmermannFriend
Messages: 203
Registered: June 2015
Senior Member
Currently, Eclipse Scout applications are based on OSGi and the Eclipse runtime platform. In the past, we have addressed the challenge to integrate a plugin based application with Java EE technologies again and again. And according to some Scout customers, integrating the plugin based Scout server with Spring technology did cost them significantly more time than anticipated.

Observing the market and the need of our customers over the past years, we have come to the conclusion that Scout's dependencies to the OSGi/Eclipse platform did bring more harm than good to Scout projects. This is why we decided to remove these dependencies with the Scout 2016 release.

With this change, Eclipse Scout applications will become standard Java applications that will seamlessly integrate with Java EE technologies and other Java frameworks, such as Spring. We also hope that this change will increase the adoption of Eclipse Scout in the Java domain.

As this is a major change we are starting to talk about this topic early and did also announce it a corresponding blog post.

The purpose of this forum post is to collect public feedback on this change. Please feel free to ask questions or talk about your concerns.

[Updated on: Thu, 03 September 2015 10:10]

Report message to a moderator

Re: In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1635495 is a reply to message #1633407] Wed, 25 February 2015 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Boy D'Poy is currently offline Boy D'PoyFriend
Messages: 67
Registered: October 2011
Member
[swithing from RAP to HTML5+CSS+Javascript is OK to me and recommended to you but], you're on the way to raise discontent up Mad as since my den where I build my Scout apps up, I perfectly feel perfect with the OSGi (Tycho/Maven ....) environment you plan to transfer to a the JEE one.
let see what will bring JEE, but in my humble opinion, both OSGi & JEE branches could be tried, but the OSGi one SHOULD, not to say MUST be maintained.
(an OSGi fan Smile )


Once You Go Scout, You Never Come Out!

[Updated on: Fri, 27 February 2015 17:17]

Report message to a moderator

Re: In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1636602 is a reply to message #1635495] Thu, 26 February 2015 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias ZimmermannFriend
Messages: 203
Registered: June 2015
Senior Member
@Boy D'Poy:

Thanks for liking the roadmap towards HTML5+CSS+Javascript.

Regarding the Transition to Java: It is sad that you do not like the transition of Scout to a Java framework. Which we understand because we really do like many of the aspects of OSGi too. We were even betting on the future of server side OSGi. However, in the IT landscape of most of our customers OSGi always felt a bit exotic and never became main stream. But rather the contrary.

Next Steps: It is still very early and not finalized how the transition to a Java framework will be implemented exactly. What is clear now is that we will take care to avoid potential class loader issues. So - in the minimum - the new Scout JARs should be simple to start in an OSGi environment. But apart from this, it would be wrong to be more specific or promise anything. We expect that this situation will be much clearer this summer.
Re: In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1637681 is a reply to message #1636602] Thu, 26 February 2015 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pascal Rapicault is currently offline Pascal RapicaultFriend
Messages: 333
Registered: July 2009
Location: Ottawa
Senior Member
I understand and agree with the decision to move out of OSGi. This is something that p2 has also suffered from and it limited its adoption despite its general applicability.

One thing that "annoys" me with the approach is the replacement of code such as jobs, extension registry, by other mechanism because today they rely on OSGi. I think that unless you had significant limitations with the current libraries it would be a bigger service to the Java community to make those work outside of OSGi. In fact, today (for well over 6 years) it is possible to use the extension registry without OSGi. As for Jobs I would be surprised if it had much dependencies on OSGi.
De-osgifying these libraries may also make the work to move out of OSGi simpler for you.

HTH

Pascal
Re: In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1641115 is a reply to message #1637681] Sat, 28 February 2015 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daniel Wiehl is currently offline Daniel WiehlFriend
Messages: 1
Registered: May 2016
Junior Member
Thanks a lot for your input on that. In my answer below, I would like to focus on jobs and services as these cover the core topics of the changes.

For jobs, we will be based on the lightweight Java Executor framework, meaning that Runnables or Callables are scheduled on behalf of an Executor. Thereby, we extend the Executor in a way to fit our needs, like running in the proper client or server context, registering executing server jobs as transaction members, offer functionality to put model jobs, which by definition are executed in sequence, into wait state without preventing other model jobs from running and so on.

OSGi services we will replace with beans registered in a BeanManager in the terms of CDI. Out of the box, we will profit from dependency injection and interception, and most important, we comply with the J2EE specification to run in a container and interact with other application's beans.
Re: In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1647122 is a reply to message #1641115] Tue, 03 March 2015 09:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bertin Kiekebosch is currently offline Bertin KiekeboschFriend
Messages: 330
Registered: August 2011
Senior Member
What options are we going to have to deploy the application.

I normally deploy on Tomcat now. More and more options arise to embed a web server into the application. Will this be an option for the new Scout framework.

Regards Bertin
Re: In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1647397 is a reply to message #1647122] Tue, 03 March 2015 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias ZimmermannFriend
Messages: 203
Registered: June 2015
Senior Member
@Bertin Kiekebosch

From the perspective of the web server scout applications are servlet based applications that are normally shipped as war files that contain an OSGi container (ServletBridge based approach). Having servlet based applications works very well today and will behave similar when Scout becomes fully Java based.

What will go away in future Scout applications is the OSGi container and the ServletBridge. Ideally, future Scout applications can be deployed to a Tomcat (or similar) out of the box too. Maybe we have to also consider deploying to TomEE, WildFly, ... In any case it is still very early to clearly see what will work best.

In case I did not properly answer your question I might have missed the point about embedding a web server in the application. If so, please let me know and try to explain your use case.

Thanks for your question and let me know if the answer did match properly your question.
Re: In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1665532 is a reply to message #1647397] Wed, 11 March 2015 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nejc Gasper is currently offline Nejc GasperFriend
Messages: 55
Registered: July 2014
Member
Well in time I have become more comfortable with OSGi. There is a steep learning curve though. Also p2 and tycho really gave me lots of headaches.

I was one of those who really wanted the OSGi part to go away, but I have changed my mind a bit.

Also our application is not a monolithic war using servletbridge. To answer @Bertin Kiekebosch - scout actually has a web server integrated (jetty). You can run the equinox runtime directly and have a working server. You can build that using maven tycho and before it creates the .war it will create the entire eclipse product that can be ran in a folder (Then it zips it and adds servletbridge).

Scout could really use integration in something like Karaf, to just install it as feature:install or something like that. What would really be nice would be:
* have base environment and dependencies in karaf
* SDK that know these are provided, possibly use bndtools
* only build the actual code bundles, hotdeploy them

Karaf has spring and pax-cdi integrated... there it should be possible to integrate everything.
Re: In 2016, Eclipse Scout will become a Java framework. [message #1665652 is a reply to message #1665532] Wed, 11 March 2015 10:26 Go to previous message
Jeremie Bresson is currently offline Jeremie BressonFriend
Messages: 1243
Registered: October 2011
Senior Member
Karaf could work. I wonder if someone ever tried to deploy a scout server app to Karaf. I know that some experiments were made with Eclipse Virgo (I am not sure if they were successful or if the project was aborted before they even deploy anything).

From our observations, it is rarely the case that the developer team can choose where and how the application should be deployed. In lot of cases this is defined by the operation team and you should deploy to an application server type they already managed.
If I understand you well, you are describing a scenario where an exe containing a Jetty is deployed to a server and executed. I do not think that a lot of operation team will accept this setup.

As Matthias wrote it to Boy D'Poy, the new Scout JARs should be able to start in an OSGi environment; it will be up to you to decide if you want to continue to use OSGi or not.
Previous Topic:Blog Entry - Scout Adopters we didn't know about
Next Topic:In 2016, Eclipse Scout will get a brand new HTML5 Renderer
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat Sep 23 20:14:18 GMT 2017

Powered by FUDForum. Page generated in 0.02351 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Powered by: FUDforum 3.0.2.
Copyright ©2001-2010 FUDforum Bulletin Board Software