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Editor usage [message #22981] Fri, 28 November 2008 09:21 Go to next message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hi there,

I'm looking to use the Eclipse Babel Project Messages Editor bundled in a
X eclipse distribution. As it is in incubator stage, is it feasible to be
used from legal point? (I have read the missing features and still find it
usable)

All Eclipse projects have the EPL license. Is this the same case for this
nice editor?

As well, currently, I can build the plugins, but is there any place where
to get the build of them? Or is it just enough to build them, and include
the EPL text inside the jar?

Thanks,
Igor
Re: Editor usage [message #23024 is a reply to message #22981] Fri, 28 November 2008 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: atoulme.intalio.com

Igor Jacy Lino Campista wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I'm looking to use the Eclipse Babel Project Messages Editor bundled in
> a X eclipse distribution. As it is in incubator stage, is it feasible to
> be used from legal point? (I have read the missing features and still
> find it usable)
It is. The incubator state means that the API may change without
warning, and that of course the project is incubating.
>
> All Eclipse projects have the EPL license. Is this the same case for
> this nice editor?
Yes. Actually before anything makes it to the Eclipse CVS, it has to be
approved by Eclipse, and that includes going through the Eclipse IP process.
>
> As well, currently, I can build the plugins, but is there any place
> where to get the build of them? Or is it just enough to build them, and
> include the EPL text inside the jar?
Yes, there is no build. My company used to offer the messages editor as
part of third-party distribution. You can just build them, make sure the
EPL license file is present in your distribution (just having it in the
feature folder is enough), and you can ship.

Of course, IANAL, just a guy who took down your path, so please take
those comments as an advice, not an absolute guarantee.

Thanks,

Antoine
Re: Editor usage [message #23066 is a reply to message #22981] Fri, 28 November 2008 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Werner Keil is currently offline Werner KeilFriend
Messages: 1085
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Igor/All,

Thanks a lot for bringing that up before I mentioned it for a different
reason.

Mine was the ESE talks and discussions with leading Eclipse products
like JFire brought to light, that not only do they currently ship and
maintain the entire "Pascal" code (the basis for the editor, not written
in Pascal ;-) in their own project. They found a brilliant way of
combining it with Eclipse BIRT for reporting i18n.

The BIRT project leads and contributors also know about that. So both
JFire and probably much more BIRT would highly profit from a reusable
production quality (and properly licensed ;-) Babel Editor.
From my understanding, the word "Message" seems a little restrictive
btw, since it is more "Content" or "Resources" (maybe without the
Bundle) it truly edits, but I would not bother about wording right now
(I'm not a lawyer, I just want the "shit" to work and unlike some
companies I prefer it to work as proper and reliable as we can get to ;-)

As mentioned earlier, even Microsoft's Tim Wagner was interested in
Babel and the general idea of Content Localization through projects like
it. So the Message/Resource Editor provided as a Babel Feature to others
like BIRT may just be the first step towards that.

Others including what a i18n and Globalization Expert from Berlin has
archived using ICU4J and XLIFF may lead too far here, but he would also
enjoy helping us with Babel if invited to.

I was told, I have to pay their whole week conference fee at DevoXX, but
I guess I'll nevertheless use the opportunity to talk about Babel again
on Dec 11th.

I don't suppose Eclipse or IBM has a budget for that (@Kit) ?;-)

Werner
Re: Editor usage [message #23109 is a reply to message #23024] Fri, 28 November 2008 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Werner Keil is currently offline Werner KeilFriend
Messages: 1085
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Antoine, I guess this guy must have done something similar to JFire,
except with the current Eclipse-based Editor from CVS?

Am I getting this right?

Please if those approaches work and are legitimate (also from a Babel/EF
point of view) could you do me a favor and post Update or Download URIs
here???

People at ESE asked me exactly that on how to get it running...
So far I had to point them to SourceForge as the only source I know for
a reliable download that works up to Ganymede.

Cheers,
Werner
Re: Editor usage [message #23315 is a reply to message #23024] Wed, 03 December 2008 20:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Thanks a lot.

I wrote a feasibility study, comparing several other editors, and had as
conclusion the usage of the Eclipse Babel Messages Editor as the best
alternative.
Re: Editor usage [message #23359 is a reply to message #23315] Wed, 03 December 2008 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: atoulme.intalio.com

Igor, any chance you could publish that study ? Anything between a blog
post and an Eclipse Corner article would be great!

Thanks,

Antoine

Igor Jacy Lino Campista wrote:
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> I wrote a feasibility study, comparing several other editors, and had as
> conclusion the usage of the Eclipse Babel Messages Editor as the best
> alternative.
>
Re: Editor usage [message #23746 is a reply to message #23359] Sat, 06 December 2008 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Werner Keil is currently offline Werner KeilFriend
Messages: 1085
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Thanks for the update.
That really sounds interesting.

Did your study cover all major IDEs or just Eclipse?

I looked at a few myself, especially those mentioned around ICU4J, but I
found most of them pretty out of date by now. Not for using Swing, but
the concept and usability often even the choice of a different language
is inferior with those.

On behalf of Babel I'd highly appreciate your study.

Igor, please also free to email me directly as I could use some extract
of your study at DevoXX in Antwerp next Thursday (Dec 11)

Where I am invited to give a short presentation of Babel and Eclipse
Localization with emphasis on the upcoming Galileo Release Train.

Werner


Antoine Toulme wrote:
> Igor, any chance you could publish that study ? Anything between a blog
> post and an Eclipse Corner article would be great!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Antoine
>
> Igor Jacy Lino Campista wrote:
>>
>> Thanks a lot.
>>
>> I wrote a feasibility study, comparing several other editors, and had as
>> conclusion the usage of the Eclipse Babel Messages Editor as the best
>> alternative.
>>
>
Re: Editor usage [message #24833 is a reply to message #23359] Tue, 20 January 2009 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hi Antoine,

Sorry, for the big delay. (too many things going lately)

I have requested permission to do it. Its looks good, I'm will get an
answer today afternoon.

I think an article would be suitable.

Cheers,
Igor
Re: Editor usage [message #24867 is a reply to message #23746] Tue, 20 January 2009 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hi Keil,

Terribly sorry, I did not read this post till today because of some
approval process that I had to follow (+ some other things going on).

As our development platform is Eclipse, that's what I looked for. It would
be a good idea to extend it with a peak to some other major IDEs (Out of
scope for our product). Lets say, including it to a v2.0 of the article.


Cheers,
Igor
Re: Editor usage [message #24896 is a reply to message #23746] Wed, 21 January 2009 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Ok, I have read about eclipse articles and this information does not fit
for it as its time specific in some sense (but not completely).

I guess I will set up then some other way to contribute it.
Re: Editor usage [message #24917 is a reply to message #24896] Wed, 21 January 2009 15:51 Go to previous message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: atoulme.intalio.com

Igor Jacy Lino Campista wrote:
>
> Ok, I have read about eclipse articles and this information does not fit
> for it as its time specific in some sense (but not completely).
>
> I guess I will set up then some other way to contribute it.
>
How about just opening a wiki page ? That's what I do most of the time.
A wiki page is a bit tricky to set up, but then you can take your time
to fill it up and ask for review at different stages.

Thanks,

Antoine
Re: Editor usage [message #575774 is a reply to message #22981] Fri, 28 November 2008 10:19 Go to previous message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: atoulme.intalio.com

Igor Jacy Lino Campista wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I'm looking to use the Eclipse Babel Project Messages Editor bundled in
> a X eclipse distribution. As it is in incubator stage, is it feasible to
> be used from legal point? (I have read the missing features and still
> find it usable)
It is. The incubator state means that the API may change without
warning, and that of course the project is incubating.
>
> All Eclipse projects have the EPL license. Is this the same case for
> this nice editor?
Yes. Actually before anything makes it to the Eclipse CVS, it has to be
approved by Eclipse, and that includes going through the Eclipse IP process.
>
> As well, currently, I can build the plugins, but is there any place
> where to get the build of them? Or is it just enough to build them, and
> include the EPL text inside the jar?
Yes, there is no build. My company used to offer the messages editor as
part of third-party distribution. You can just build them, make sure the
EPL license file is present in your distribution (just having it in the
feature folder is enough), and you can ship.

Of course, IANAL, just a guy who took down your path, so please take
those comments as an advice, not an absolute guarantee.

Thanks,

Antoine
Re: Editor usage [message #575796 is a reply to message #22981] Fri, 28 November 2008 22:33 Go to previous message
Werner Keil is currently offline Werner KeilFriend
Messages: 1085
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Igor/All,

Thanks a lot for bringing that up before I mentioned it for a different
reason.

Mine was the ESE talks and discussions with leading Eclipse products
like JFire brought to light, that not only do they currently ship and
maintain the entire "Pascal" code (the basis for the editor, not written
in Pascal ;-) in their own project. They found a brilliant way of
combining it with Eclipse BIRT for reporting i18n.

The BIRT project leads and contributors also know about that. So both
JFire and probably much more BIRT would highly profit from a reusable
production quality (and properly licensed ;-) Babel Editor.
From my understanding, the word "Message" seems a little restrictive
btw, since it is more "Content" or "Resources" (maybe without the
Bundle) it truly edits, but I would not bother about wording right now
(I'm not a lawyer, I just want the "shit" to work and unlike some
companies I prefer it to work as proper and reliable as we can get to ;-)

As mentioned earlier, even Microsoft's Tim Wagner was interested in
Babel and the general idea of Content Localization through projects like
it. So the Message/Resource Editor provided as a Babel Feature to others
like BIRT may just be the first step towards that.

Others including what a i18n and Globalization Expert from Berlin has
archived using ICU4J and XLIFF may lead too far here, but he would also
enjoy helping us with Babel if invited to.

I was told, I have to pay their whole week conference fee at DevoXX, but
I guess I'll nevertheless use the opportunity to talk about Babel again
on Dec 11th.

I don't suppose Eclipse or IBM has a budget for that (@Kit) ?;-)

Werner
Re: Editor usage [message #575811 is a reply to message #23024] Fri, 28 November 2008 22:37 Go to previous message
Werner Keil is currently offline Werner KeilFriend
Messages: 1085
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Antoine, I guess this guy must have done something similar to JFire,
except with the current Eclipse-based Editor from CVS?

Am I getting this right?

Please if those approaches work and are legitimate (also from a Babel/EF
point of view) could you do me a favor and post Update or Download URIs
here???

People at ESE asked me exactly that on how to get it running...
So far I had to point them to SourceForge as the only source I know for
a reliable download that works up to Ganymede.

Cheers,
Werner
Re: Editor usage [message #575946 is a reply to message #23024] Wed, 03 December 2008 20:06 Go to previous message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Thanks a lot.

I wrote a feasibility study, comparing several other editors, and had as
conclusion the usage of the Eclipse Babel Messages Editor as the best
alternative.
Re: Editor usage [message #575969 is a reply to message #23315] Wed, 03 December 2008 20:43 Go to previous message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: atoulme.intalio.com

Igor, any chance you could publish that study ? Anything between a blog
post and an Eclipse Corner article would be great!

Thanks,

Antoine

Igor Jacy Lino Campista wrote:
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> I wrote a feasibility study, comparing several other editors, and had as
> conclusion the usage of the Eclipse Babel Messages Editor as the best
> alternative.
>
Re: Editor usage [message #576254 is a reply to message #23359] Sat, 06 December 2008 14:17 Go to previous message
Werner Keil is currently offline Werner KeilFriend
Messages: 1085
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Thanks for the update.
That really sounds interesting.

Did your study cover all major IDEs or just Eclipse?

I looked at a few myself, especially those mentioned around ICU4J, but I
found most of them pretty out of date by now. Not for using Swing, but
the concept and usability often even the choice of a different language
is inferior with those.

On behalf of Babel I'd highly appreciate your study.

Igor, please also free to email me directly as I could use some extract
of your study at DevoXX in Antwerp next Thursday (Dec 11)

Where I am invited to give a short presentation of Babel and Eclipse
Localization with emphasis on the upcoming Galileo Release Train.

Werner


Antoine Toulme wrote:
> Igor, any chance you could publish that study ? Anything between a blog
> post and an Eclipse Corner article would be great!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Antoine
>
> Igor Jacy Lino Campista wrote:
>>
>> Thanks a lot.
>>
>> I wrote a feasibility study, comparing several other editors, and had as
>> conclusion the usage of the Eclipse Babel Messages Editor as the best
>> alternative.
>>
>
Re: Editor usage [message #576916 is a reply to message #23359] Tue, 20 January 2009 12:03 Go to previous message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hi Antoine,

Sorry, for the big delay. (too many things going lately)

I have requested permission to do it. Its looks good, I'm will get an
answer today afternoon.

I think an article would be suitable.

Cheers,
Igor
Re: Editor usage [message #576938 is a reply to message #23746] Tue, 20 January 2009 12:08 Go to previous message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hi Keil,

Terribly sorry, I did not read this post till today because of some
approval process that I had to follow (+ some other things going on).

As our development platform is Eclipse, that's what I looked for. It would
be a good idea to extend it with a peak to some other major IDEs (Out of
scope for our product). Lets say, including it to a v2.0 of the article.


Cheers,
Igor
Re: Editor usage [message #576949 is a reply to message #23746] Wed, 21 January 2009 09:44 Go to previous message
Igor Jacy Lino Campista is currently offline Igor Jacy Lino CampistaFriend
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Ok, I have read about eclipse articles and this information does not fit
for it as its time specific in some sense (but not completely).

I guess I will set up then some other way to contribute it.
Re: Editor usage [message #576976 is a reply to message #24896] Wed, 21 January 2009 15:51 Go to previous message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: atoulme.intalio.com

Igor Jacy Lino Campista wrote:
>
> Ok, I have read about eclipse articles and this information does not fit
> for it as its time specific in some sense (but not completely).
>
> I guess I will set up then some other way to contribute it.
>
How about just opening a wiki page ? That's what I do most of the time.
A wiki page is a bit tricky to set up, but then you can take your time
to fill it up and ask for review at different stages.

Thanks,

Antoine
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