Home » Language IDEs » ServerTools (WTP) » How to publish to my own jUDDI server?
How to publish to my own jUDDI server? [message #176710] |
Wed, 09 August 2006 10:58  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: avinh.verizon.net
When going through the Wizard for creating a Web Service, I get to the
step for publising the WSDL which gives me a drop down window for a set of
UDDI registries to use, what if I want to publish my WSDL document to my
own UDDI server - i.e. I have set up a jUDDI on a Unix server that I would
like to use. How do I tell WTP to use my server's jUDDI registry instead
of the ones in the drop down list?
Thanks - Alan
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Re: How to publish to my own jUDDI server? [message #177457 is a reply to message #176710] |
Fri, 18 August 2006 12:30   |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: avinh.verizon.net
I have summarized my effort in creating and publishing a web service below
for anyone who might be interested. This method worked for me. Getting
instructions on how to go through this process was not straight forward so
I have put together the following information for future references.
Hopefully it will help other people get going in the right direction.
Cheers - Alan
************************************************************ *********
Creating and publishing Java Web Services Interfaces using Eclipse and the
Web Tools Platform (WTP).
Software packages that are involved with this process include but not
limited to the following list...
**********************************
The following were installed on my development machine running Windows XP
Professional.
The Eclipse Integrated Development Environment (IDE) can be found in the
following link, I'm using version 3.1.2:
http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/
The plugin for developing Web Services (WTP) can be found in the following
link, I'm using version 1.0.2:
http://www.eclipse.org/webtools/
Eclipse NewsPortal for webtools is in the following link:
http://www.eclipse.org/newsportal/thread.php?group=eclipse.w ebtools
**********************************
I'm using the Apache Tomcat Application server along with Axis (for SOAP
services), jUDDI (UDDI registry server) and MySql as the DBMS. All were
installed on a Linux Red Hat version 3 box.
Tomcat can be found in the following link, I'm using version 5.5.17:
http://tomcat.apache.org/
Axis can be found in the following link, I'm using version 1.4:
http://ws.apache.org/axis/
The jUDDI server can be found in the following link, I'm using version
0.9rc4 (UDDI version 2.0):
http://ws.apache.org/juddi/
jUDDI User forum/mailing list is in the following link:
http://www.nabble.com/jUDDI---User-f240.html
MySql download can be found in the following link, I'm using version
5.0.22-linux-i686:
http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/
**********************************
1) Install and configure the Tomcat Application Server, Axis, jUDDI and
MySql on your target platform/machine, i.e. where your Web Services
Application will finally reside.
2) Install and configure the Tomcat Application Server and Axis on your
development machine. You will need them for integrating with Eclipse.
3) Install and configure Eclipse and WTP on your development machine.
4) Create a Tomcat server in the Eclipse workbench by following the
instructions at the following link:
http://help.eclipse.org/help32/index.jsp?topic=/org.eclipse. jst.ws.axis.ui.doc.user/tasks/ttomcatserv.html
Test and make sure that the installations from steps 1-4 work properly
before continuing.
The following steps are done using the Eclipse IDE along with the WTP
plugin:
5) Create a "Dynamic Web Project" by doing the following inside of Eclipse:
- File->New->Dynamic Web Project
- Give the project an appropriate name and select the "Finish" button.
We'll call it "myApp" as
a reference in this document.
6) Create your Java class with the public methods that you will be using
as your Web Service Interfaces - this is called bottom up web design. Do
this as follows:
- RIGHT click on the "myApp" project and select
New->Class
- Give an appropriate package name (e.g. my.org.name) and class name (e.g.
MyWebClass) and select the "Finish" button.
- Finish coding up the public methods for the "MyWebClass" class.
- Make sure your project has all the required jar files in its "Java Build
Path", i.e. do the following:
RIGHT click on your project and select "Properties", then under "Java
Buile Path" add all the required jar files needed the compile your class.
- Make sure you build your project so that your class is available in the
output folder (e.g. build/classes/...), i.e. do the following to create
the class files:
Project->Build Project
7) RIGHT click on the "MyWebClass" class and do the following to create
the WSDL and the test client:
- Web Services->Create Web Service
- In the "Web Services" window, check the "Generate a proxy" and "Test the
Web service" boxes then select Next->Next->Next.
- In the "Web Service Java Bean Identity" window, notice where your "Web
service URI" is located, this will be the location of your service when
you publish the interface later. You can change the URI in the WSDL
document later. Also notice the "WSDL File" that will be created by the
wizard. To access the WSDL document using a browser, you add the string
"?wsdl" to the end of the "Web service URI" string. The "WSDL File" is
also located in the folder indicated by the field "WSDL Folder".
- Check all methods that you want to be available for your Web Services
interface.
- Select the appropriate "Style and Use" for your interface then click on
the "Next" button
- In the "Server startup page" window, click on the "Start server" button
to start Tomcat.
- Once Tomcat has started successfully, click on the "Next" button.
- In the "Web Services Test Page" window, click on the "Next" button.
- In the "Web Services Proxy Page" window, click on the "Next" button.
- In the "Web Services Client Test" window, make sure the "Run test on
server" option is UNCHECKED then click on the "Next" button.
- In the "Web Services Publication" window, click on the "Finish" button.
8) Once the "Web Services Test Client" window come up, you can test your
interfaces. I have found that testing the interfaces using this mechanism
may result in perculiar behaviors. What works better is to migrate your
project to Tomcat by doing the following on the target machine:
8.1 - Stop Tomcat on the target machine/platform.
8.2 - Create a directory with the SAME name as your project, in this case
it's "myApp", under the following directory -> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps which
should result in something like TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp
8.3 - Copy all contents under the "WebContent" folder for your project
from your development machine (e.g.
C:\EclipseWorkspace\myApp\WebContent\*.*) to the target machine under
TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp.
8.4 - If your Eclipse output folder is defaulted to the "build" folder,
then copy the "classes" folder for your project from your development
machine (e.g. C:\EclipseWorkspace\myApp\build\classes) to the target
machine under TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/WEB-INF.
8.5 - You should now have a similar directory structure as the following
on your target machine:
--> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/META-INF
--> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/WEB-INF
--> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/WEB-INF/classes
--> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/wsdl
8.6 - Eclipse should have created the client application project that you
can use to test your Web Services, it has the same name as your project's
name with the word "Client" appended to it, for this discussion it would
be "myAppClient". The code for the client can be used to create your own
client classes to access your Web Service Interfaces, so you can make good
use of it.
8.7 - Repeat steps 8.2-8.5 and migrate the client application (e.g.
myAppClient) to TOMCAT/webapps too.
9) Start Tomcat on the target machine and Tomcat should recognize your new
web applications located under the TOMCAT_HOME/webapps directory. You can
access and test the "myApp" Web Services by running the "myAppClient" JSP
that was created by Eclipse. The typical URL for the client JSP is as
follows (notice that it uses your application name and class name):
http://localhost:8080/myAppClient/sampleMyWebClass/TestClien t.jsp
10) Make changes to your "MyWebClass" accordingly using Eclipse and copy
the "MyWebClass.class" file from your development machine (e.g.
C:\EclipseWorkspace\myApp\build\classes\myPackageName\...\My WebClass.class)
to the target machine (e.g.
TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/WEB-INF/classes/myPackageName/.../ MyWebClass.class).
Restart Tomcat on the target machine and retest until everything is in
order and your Web Services Interfaces are working as required.
11) At this point, using your Java class, you have successfully created
your Web Services Interfaces and their WSDL document - the WSDL document
lives under the TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/wsdl directory and can be
accessed using the browser via a URL similar to the following:
http://localhost:8080/myApp/services/MyWebClass?wsdl
Using the following URL will show you some other WSDL interfaces created
by Eclipse:
http://localhost:8080/myApp/services
**********************************
Publishing the WSDL document into the UDDI registry...
Next we want to publish the "myWebClass" WSDL into a UDDI registry/server.
In this example we will be using the jUDDI server that was installed on
our target machine. If the jUDDI server was installed correctly, its main
page should be at a URL similar to the following:
http://localhost:8080/juddi
By looking in the "controller.jsp" file that resides under the
TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/juddi/console directory, we can see that the "inquiry"
URL is something like "http://localhost:8080/juddi/inquiry" - we will need
this URL later in the wizard.
1) Bring up Eclipse and do:
run->Launch the Web Services Explorer
2) In the Web Services Explorer window, click on the "UDDI Main" link.
3) For the "Inquiry URL" field enter the jUDDI inquiry URL that you got
from the "controller.jsp" file, e.g.
http://localhost:8080/juddi/inquiry
4) Give the jUDDI server an appropriate name for the "Registry Name"
field, e.g. "My jUDDI", then click on the "Go" button.
5) In the "Registry Details" screen, under "Other Actions", you can click
on the "Add To Favorites" link to add your jUDDI registry server to the
drop down list (for future usage).
6) In the "Registry Details" screen, under "Other Actions", click on the
"Publish" link to bring up the "Publish" screen. Use the following options
to publish the "MyWebApp" services:
- Publish -> Service Interface
- Publication format -> simple
- Publish URL -> http://localhost:8080/juddi/publish
- User ID -> myUserId (this is the user ID that you have allowed to use
the jUDDI database)
- Password -> <I don't believe jUDDI is currently using this field, so you
can enter anything>
- WSDL URL -> platform:/resource/myApp/WebContent/wsdl/MyWebClass.wsdl
- Name -> My Application
- Description -> My Web Class Services
For the "WSDL URL" field, you must use the browse button to select the
myApp project and Eclipse should be able to find the WSDL document from
that project and import it into that field.
Notice that the "Publish URL" is the URL for the jUDDI server's "publish"
address (i.e. where we're publishing the WSDL document) and NOT where the
MyWebClass service interface lives (i.e. not
http://localhost:8080/myApp/services/MyWebClass).
**********************************
Searching for the Service...
1) Bring up Eclipse and do:
run->Launch the Web Services Explorer
2) In the Web Services Explorer window, click on the "UDDI Main" link.
3) For the "Inquiry URL" field enter the jUDDI inquiry URL that you got
from the "controller.jsp" file, e.g.
http://localhost:8080/juddi/inquiry or use the drop down list if you had
saved it already.
4) In the "Registry Details" screen, under "Other Actions", click on the
"Find" link to bring up the "Find" screen.
5) Use the following options in the "Find" screen to find your service:
- Search for -> Service Interfaces
- Type of search -> simple
- Name -> My Application (or whatever "Name" you used in step 6 above)
Click on the "Go" button and the information for the "MyWebClass" services
should be displayed. Notice that you can "Edit" certain fields such as the
"WSDL URL" field. You might want to use the actual URL for the Web
Services such as
http://my.host.machine.name:8080/myApp/services/MyWebClass?w sdl instead of
the default one listed in the MySql database, e.g.
"platform:/resource/myApp/WebContent/wsdl/MyWebClass.wsdl"
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Re: How to publish to my own jUDDI server? [message #177528 is a reply to message #177457] |
Sat, 19 August 2006 01:18   |
Eclipse User |
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Alan,
this is excellent stuff! Converted to HTML with a few screenshots this would fit very nicely into our set of
tutorials [1]. Would you be interested in transcribing this into a tutorial?
Cheers - CB.
[1] http://www.eclipse.org/webtools/community/communityresources .html#ws
Alan wrote:
> I have summarized my effort in creating and publishing a web service below
> for anyone who might be interested. This method worked for me. Getting
> instructions on how to go through this process was not straight forward so
> I have put together the following information for future references.
> Hopefully it will help other people get going in the right direction.
>
> Cheers - Alan
>
> ************************************************************ *********
>
> Creating and publishing Java Web Services Interfaces using Eclipse and the
> Web Tools Platform (WTP).
>
> Software packages that are involved with this process include but not
> limited to the following list...
>
> **********************************
>
> The following were installed on my development machine running Windows XP
> Professional.
>
> The Eclipse Integrated Development Environment (IDE) can be found in the
> following link, I'm using version 3.1.2:
> http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/
>
> The plugin for developing Web Services (WTP) can be found in the following
> link, I'm using version 1.0.2:
> http://www.eclipse.org/webtools/
>
> Eclipse NewsPortal for webtools is in the following link:
> http://www.eclipse.org/newsportal/thread.php?group=eclipse.w ebtools
>
> **********************************
>
> I'm using the Apache Tomcat Application server along with Axis (for SOAP
> services), jUDDI (UDDI registry server) and MySql as the DBMS. All were
> installed on a Linux Red Hat version 3 box.
>
> Tomcat can be found in the following link, I'm using version 5.5.17:
> http://tomcat.apache.org/
>
> Axis can be found in the following link, I'm using version 1.4:
> http://ws.apache.org/axis/
>
> The jUDDI server can be found in the following link, I'm using version
> 0.9rc4 (UDDI version 2.0):
> http://ws.apache.org/juddi/
>
> jUDDI User forum/mailing list is in the following link:
> http://www.nabble.com/jUDDI---User-f240.html
>
> MySql download can be found in the following link, I'm using version
> 5.0.22-linux-i686:
> http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/
>
> **********************************
>
> 1) Install and configure the Tomcat Application Server, Axis, jUDDI and
> MySql on your target platform/machine, i.e. where your Web Services
> Application will finally reside.
>
> 2) Install and configure the Tomcat Application Server and Axis on your
> development machine. You will need them for integrating with Eclipse.
>
> 3) Install and configure Eclipse and WTP on your development machine.
>
> 4) Create a Tomcat server in the Eclipse workbench by following the
> instructions at the following link:
>
> http://help.eclipse.org/help32/index.jsp?topic=/org.eclipse. jst.ws.axis.ui.doc.user/tasks/ttomcatserv.html
>
> Test and make sure that the installations from steps 1-4 work properly
> before continuing.
>
> The following steps are done using the Eclipse IDE along with the WTP
> plugin:
>
> 5) Create a "Dynamic Web Project" by doing the following inside of Eclipse:
> - File->New->Dynamic Web Project
> - Give the project an appropriate name and select the "Finish" button.
> We'll call it "myApp" as
> a reference in this document.
>
> 6) Create your Java class with the public methods that you will be using
> as your Web Service Interfaces - this is called bottom up web design. Do
> this as follows:
> - RIGHT click on the "myApp" project and select
> New->Class
> - Give an appropriate package name (e.g. my.org.name) and class name (e.g.
> MyWebClass) and select the "Finish" button.
> - Finish coding up the public methods for the "MyWebClass" class.
> - Make sure your project has all the required jar files in its "Java Build
> Path", i.e. do the following:
> RIGHT click on your project and select "Properties", then under "Java
> Buile Path" add all the required jar files needed the compile your class.
> - Make sure you build your project so that your class is available in the
> output folder (e.g. build/classes/...), i.e. do the following to create
> the class files:
> Project->Build Project
>
> 7) RIGHT click on the "MyWebClass" class and do the following to create
> the WSDL and the test client:
> - Web Services->Create Web Service
> - In the "Web Services" window, check the "Generate a proxy" and "Test the
> Web service" boxes then select Next->Next->Next.
> - In the "Web Service Java Bean Identity" window, notice where your "Web
> service URI" is located, this will be the location of your service when
> you publish the interface later. You can change the URI in the WSDL
> document later. Also notice the "WSDL File" that will be created by the
> wizard. To access the WSDL document using a browser, you add the string
> "?wsdl" to the end of the "Web service URI" string. The "WSDL File" is
> also located in the folder indicated by the field "WSDL Folder".
> - Check all methods that you want to be available for your Web Services
> interface.
> - Select the appropriate "Style and Use" for your interface then click on
> the "Next" button
> - In the "Server startup page" window, click on the "Start server" button
> to start Tomcat.
> - Once Tomcat has started successfully, click on the "Next" button.
> - In the "Web Services Test Page" window, click on the "Next" button.
> - In the "Web Services Proxy Page" window, click on the "Next" button.
> - In the "Web Services Client Test" window, make sure the "Run test on
> server" option is UNCHECKED then click on the "Next" button.
> - In the "Web Services Publication" window, click on the "Finish" button.
>
> 8) Once the "Web Services Test Client" window come up, you can test your
> interfaces. I have found that testing the interfaces using this mechanism
> may result in perculiar behaviors. What works better is to migrate your
> project to Tomcat by doing the following on the target machine:
> 8.1 - Stop Tomcat on the target machine/platform.
> 8.2 - Create a directory with the SAME name as your project, in this case
> it's "myApp", under the following directory -> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps which
> should result in something like TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp
> 8.3 - Copy all contents under the "WebContent" folder for your project
> from your development machine (e.g.
> C:\EclipseWorkspace\myApp\WebContent\*.*) to the target machine under
> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp.
> 8.4 - If your Eclipse output folder is defaulted to the "build" folder,
> then copy the "classes" folder for your project from your development
> machine (e.g. C:\EclipseWorkspace\myApp\build\classes) to the target
> machine under TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/WEB-INF.
> 8.5 - You should now have a similar directory structure as the following
> on your target machine:
>
> --> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/META-INF
> --> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/WEB-INF
> --> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/WEB-INF/classes
> --> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/wsdl
>
> 8.6 - Eclipse should have created the client application project that you
> can use to test your Web Services, it has the same name as your project's
> name with the word "Client" appended to it, for this discussion it would
> be "myAppClient". The code for the client can be used to create your own
> client classes to access your Web Service Interfaces, so you can make good
> use of it.
>
> 8.7 - Repeat steps 8.2-8.5 and migrate the client application (e.g.
> myAppClient) to TOMCAT/webapps too.
>
> 9) Start Tomcat on the target machine and Tomcat should recognize your new
> web applications located under the TOMCAT_HOME/webapps directory. You can
> access and test the "myApp" Web Services by running the "myAppClient" JSP
> that was created by Eclipse. The typical URL for the client JSP is as
> follows (notice that it uses your application name and class name):
> http://localhost:8080/myAppClient/sampleMyWebClass/TestClien t.jsp
>
> 10) Make changes to your "MyWebClass" accordingly using Eclipse and copy
> the "MyWebClass.class" file from your development machine (e.g.
> C:\EclipseWorkspace\myApp\build\classes\myPackageName\...\My WebClass.class)
> to the target machine (e.g.
> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/WEB-INF/classes/myPackageName/.../ MyWebClass.class).
> Restart Tomcat on the target machine and retest until everything is in
> order and your Web Services Interfaces are working as required.
>
> 11) At this point, using your Java class, you have successfully created
> your Web Services Interfaces and their WSDL document - the WSDL document
> lives under the TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/myApp/wsdl directory and can be
> accessed using the browser via a URL similar to the following:
> http://localhost:8080/myApp/services/MyWebClass?wsdl
>
> Using the following URL will show you some other WSDL interfaces created
> by Eclipse:
> http://localhost:8080/myApp/services
>
> **********************************
>
> Publishing the WSDL document into the UDDI registry...
>
> Next we want to publish the "myWebClass" WSDL into a UDDI registry/server.
> In this example we will be using the jUDDI server that was installed on
> our target machine. If the jUDDI server was installed correctly, its main
> page should be at a URL similar to the following:
> http://localhost:8080/juddi
>
> By looking in the "controller.jsp" file that resides under the
> TOMCAT_HOME/webapps/juddi/console directory, we can see that the "inquiry"
> URL is something like "http://localhost:8080/juddi/inquiry" - we will need
> this URL later in the wizard.
>
> 1) Bring up Eclipse and do:
> run->Launch the Web Services Explorer
>
> 2) In the Web Services Explorer window, click on the "UDDI Main" link.
>
> 3) For the "Inquiry URL" field enter the jUDDI inquiry URL that you got
> from the "controller.jsp" file, e.g.
> http://localhost:8080/juddi/inquiry
>
> 4) Give the jUDDI server an appropriate name for the "Registry Name"
> field, e.g. "My jUDDI", then click on the "Go" button.
>
> 5) In the "Registry Details" screen, under "Other Actions", you can click
> on the "Add To Favorites" link to add your jUDDI registry server to the
> drop down list (for future usage).
>
> 6) In the "Registry Details" screen, under "Other Actions", click on the
> "Publish" link to bring up the "Publish" screen. Use the following options
> to publish the "MyWebApp" services:
>
> - Publish -> Service Interface
> - Publication format -> simple
> - Publish URL -> http://localhost:8080/juddi/publish
> - User ID -> myUserId (this is the user ID that you have allowed to use
> the jUDDI database)
> - Password -> <I don't believe jUDDI is currently using this field, so you
> can enter anything>
> - WSDL URL -> platform:/resource/myApp/WebContent/wsdl/MyWebClass.wsdl
> - Name -> My Application
> - Description -> My Web Class Services
>
> For the "WSDL URL" field, you must use the browse button to select the
> myApp project and Eclipse should be able to find the WSDL document from
> that project and import it into that field.
>
> Notice that the "Publish URL" is the URL for the jUDDI server's "publish"
> address (i.e. where we're publishing the WSDL document) and NOT where the
> MyWebClass service interface lives (i.e. not
> http://localhost:8080/myApp/services/MyWebClass).
>
> **********************************
>
> Searching for the Service...
>
> 1) Bring up Eclipse and do:
> run->Launch the Web Services Explorer
>
> 2) In the Web Services Explorer window, click on the "UDDI Main" link.
>
> 3) For the "Inquiry URL" field enter the jUDDI inquiry URL that you got
> from the "controller.jsp" file, e.g.
> http://localhost:8080/juddi/inquiry or use the drop down list if you had
> saved it already.
>
> 4) In the "Registry Details" screen, under "Other Actions", click on the
> "Find" link to bring up the "Find" screen.
>
> 5) Use the following options in the "Find" screen to find your service:
>
> - Search for -> Service Interfaces
> - Type of search -> simple
> - Name -> My Application (or whatever "Name" you used in step 6 above)
>
> Click on the "Go" button and the information for the "MyWebClass" services
> should be displayed. Notice that you can "Edit" certain fields such as the
> "WSDL URL" field. You might want to use the actual URL for the Web
> Services such as
> http://my.host.machine.name:8080/myApp/services/MyWebClass?w sdl instead of
> the default one listed in the MySql database, e.g.
> "platform:/resource/myApp/WebContent/wsdl/MyWebClass.wsdl"
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Re: How to publish to my own jUDDI server? [message #178534 is a reply to message #177664] |
Tue, 05 September 2006 13:02  |
Eclipse User |
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Hi Alan,
thanks.
The contents of the WTP Web site are maintained in CVS, host dev.eclipse.org,
repository path /cvsroot/org.eclipse respectively, under www/webtools. Most of the
actual HTML documents are built from corresponding hand-edited XML documents by a
bunch of stylesheets executed by www/webtools/build.xml. To get to the heart of
the matter, you could:
1. Connect anonymously to dev.eclipse.org:/cvsroot/org.eclipse and check out "www"
(which takes a while).
2. Copy
www/webtools/jst/components/ws/1.5/tutorials/TopDownWebServi ce/TopDownWebService.xml
to, say,
www/webtools/jst/components/ws/1.5/tutorials/WebServicePubli cation/WebServicePublication.xml.
3. Edit WebServicePublication.xml.
4. Run www/webtools/build.xml as Ant.
5. Open WebServicePublication.html in a browser to see how it looks.
6. Repeat at #3 until you're happy.
7. Open a bug and attach your tutorial for me to commit.
If you explore www/webtools/jst/components/ws/1.5/tutorials/ a bit, you should
quickly get the gist of how the tutorials, their screenshots, supporting source
files, etc. are organized. You're welcome to drop me a line directly if you have
any further questions.
Thanks again for your interest - CB.
Alan wrote:
> Chris Brealey wrote:
>
> > Alan,
> > this is excellent stuff! Converted to HTML with a few screenshots this would
> fit very nicely into our set of
> > tutorials [1]. Would you be interested in transcribing this into a tutorial?
>
> > Cheers - CB.
>
> > [1] http://www.eclipse.org/webtools/community/communityresources .html#ws
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> How do I go about putting together the html and screenshots for the
> tutorial? Does the www.eclipse.org have a set of tools to use for this?
>
> Alan
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