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Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #906008] Fri, 31 August 2012 13:05 Go to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias Zimmermann
Messages: 81
Registered: February 2010
Member
we've been asked to outline our roadmap for the near and mid-term future of Scout. As this topic might be of interest to a wider audience, we want to share the discussion and get feedback/input from both Scout committers and Scout adopters.

Below we've compiled a list of things that some of us believe should become available for Scout in the period over the next two years.

Initial roadmap suggestion:

Scout 3.9 (Eclipse Kepler)
- Mobile support (feature)
- Cloud support (feature)
- First experiments with e4
- Eclipse CBI, testing (infrastructure)
- Book, examples, help (documentation)

Scout 3.10/4.x? (Eclipse L)
- Portal support (JSR 168, 286), Liferay showcase
- REST support
- JavaFX UI
- e4?

The discussion is open Smile

best regards
Matthias
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #906207 is a reply to message #906008] Fri, 31 August 2012 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adrian Moser
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2011
Member
Are there any details or tickets about "cloud support"?

Regarding the roadmap, I would like to see much better JUnit support integrated into Scout SDK, which would be great for TDD. For example, Scout SDK could create a test case when creating a form or a new service operation.
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #906995 is a reply to message #906207] Mon, 03 September 2012 05:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeremie Bresson is currently offline Jeremie Bresson
Messages: 698
Registered: October 2011
Senior Member
A start for the JUnit support could be Bug 376459

The SDK could also provide a simple way to start the tests (all of them, a specific test)... For the moment projects create some additional product files to start the tests and there is the DevTestMarker annotation. There is place for improvements...
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #907145 is a reply to message #906207] Mon, 03 September 2012 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias Zimmermann
Messages: 81
Registered: February 2010
Member
> Are there any details or tickets about "cloud support"?

No, not yet. The topic arises when Scout applications shoud be run in a cloud environment. As our experience base in this area is limited we could do the following:

  1. Deploy existing Scout applications to the cloud
  2. Document results in the Scout wiki
  3. Most likely some Scout SDK convenience features will make life simpler when developing for the cloud
  4. What and if something needs to be done in the Scout runtime will follow from the points above




Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #907294 is a reply to message #907145] Mon, 03 September 2012 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adrian Moser
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2011
Member
Matthias, thank you for the details about "cloud support".

I think it would be a great feature, especially for applications using the RAP UI. I would like to see Eclipse Scout support and/or compatibility for Google App Engine and Google Cloud SQL.

Did you have some other cloud providers on your mind?
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #907319 is a reply to message #906008] Mon, 03 September 2012 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tore Van Grembergen is currently offline Tore Van Grembergen
Messages: 7
Registered: August 2012
Junior Member
I think the items selected for 3.9 are the current "hot items" when it comes to software development and will become a necessity in the coming months.

However I would like to suggest to add the following to your list for the 3.9 release to help people creating solid applications quickly & fast :

- include a reporting engine
- include a rule engine
- include a bpmn / proces flow engine
- include an ESB like bus (e.g. camel with activeMQ)
- auto creation of initial forms based on the database tables

One could argue that these all can be added by the individual developper using Scout in his own projects.
This is true, however not everybody is interested in doing a selection process in selecting the necessary packages. On top this could make deployment a little bit more complex.
For most individual developpers, it is easier if everything is sitting together in the Scout package.




Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #908462 is a reply to message #907319] Wed, 05 September 2012 12:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias Zimmermann
Messages: 81
Registered: February 2010
Member
> However I would like to suggest to add the following to your list for the 3.9 release > to help people creating solid applications quickly & fast :
>
> - include a reporting engine
> - include a rule engine
> - include a bpmn / proces flow engine
> - include an ESB like bus (e.g. camel with activeMQ)
> - auto creation of initial forms based on the database tables

Tore, what is your opinion for each of these items regarding the following aspects:
1) how much of the selection pain you mention can be addressed by a working tutorial?
2) what would be the use case the tutorial should focus on?
3) which projects/products do you recommend to consider (e.g. camel/service mix for esb integration)?
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #908577 is a reply to message #907294] Wed, 05 September 2012 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias Zimmermann
Messages: 81
Registered: February 2010
Member
According to an article by Michael Yuan CloudBees, OpenShift and maybe Amazon Beanstalk look interesting to me.

Compared with Google App Engine the above mentioned PaaS seem to rely more on open standards (and vendor lock-in seems to be less pronounced). Don't get me wrong, our experience base is still very weak and the above ideas are just conclusions from a single article...

Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #908662 is a reply to message #908462] Wed, 05 September 2012 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tore Van Grembergen is currently offline Tore Van Grembergen
Messages: 7
Registered: August 2012
Junior Member
Dear Mathias,


Good tutorials on the items mentioned (reporting, rule engine, proces flow, esb) would (in my opinion) have for a consequence that you as a company need to make a selection on these. The workload involved for documentation, creating examples etc would be forcing you to make a selection on these items. Even if available resourcing would be unlimited, it is nearly impossible to document several possible solutions on these items. Hence the selection proces itself would have been done, and I think for most developers this would already give a kick start.
The documenting of the use of the mentioned items would force you to look at the Scout environment as a full solution for modern development techniques.
Personally I think that the days of developing everything yourself are gone. You need to have a fully integrated platform allowing you to create a UI, put business logic in a combination of ruling engines and proces flow engines and glue different systems to each other with an "ESB" like tool.

The uses cases should focus in this setup to demonstrating the combined strength of the platform.
E.g.
- The Scout Platform allows for getting very easy from the user interface to the server.
- At the server you could put complex validation / calculation rules in the ruling system.
- Once validations have been done, an approval proces could be started by the proces flow engine
- part of the approval proces could be publishing information on a webservice. As we are not sure if the webservice is available we put the information on the ESB who is acting as a local proxy with a message queue in case the service is unavailable.

Take the following example

You need to create a transportation from a warehouse to other warehouses.
First step create transport and add delivery notes to it.
Second step : calculate routing based on the delivery notes you have added to the transport you created. -> this would be executed by the ruling engine.
Third step : request delivery slots in the different warehouses and update status of the delivery notes -> this would be executed by proces flow in combination with the ESB
Fourth step : if necessary re-calculate routing based on the delivery slots obtained from the warehouses.- > this would be executed by the ruling engine.
Fifth step : inform the initiator of the transport that the transport is ready for dispatching and request approval -> this would be executed by proces flow

This example is something that can be done with Scout in combination with some tools and shows the strength of the total platform.

With regards to the products I would recommend : I am still myself in the "pain" of doing the selection.

For the moment it looks like i would consider a combination of Scout with for
- reporting :Jasperreports
- rule engine + process flow : drools
- ESB like : camel in combination with Active MQ.

As said I am still in the proces of putting the puzzle together on the platform I need.

I am also stil trying to figure out what would be the best way to approach the DB : the traditional way via SQL statements or with something as Hibernate.

Lastly what realy would be a big help is the autogenaration of the base screens based on the database layout (or object layout if hibernate is used).
For each of table or object you need to create maintenance screens, having these created automatically for most part would drastically improve development performance.







Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #908951 is a reply to message #908662] Thu, 06 September 2012 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bertin Kiekebosch is currently offline Bertin Kiekebosch
Messages: 303
Registered: August 2011
Senior Member
I think Scout is a great product but what you need to get started is good documentation. Its hard to find your information on the wiki. Some is there but hidden, but most of it is not there.

- So my first topic would be more and better structured documentation about Scout itself.

Integration with other products. Most of the software has already been written and I like to use it. But to find out what the best way is to integrated these components into Scout takes time.

- Examples and documentation on how to integrate other products. For example Jasper Reports, BIRT, MS Office, Hibernate etc.

For the end-user, the GUI is everything. I get most responses on a good looking and smooth working GUI. If the near future shows out that FX is there to stay, I would be great to have it.

- Java FX

As the applications become bigger its hard to keep the quality up. Continues Build Integration and Testing is a must then. To set this up for a small development team is hard.

- Documentation on how to set this up for Scout and if neccessary additional components for testing

Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #913403 is a reply to message #906008] Sat, 15 September 2012 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bruno  Köferli is currently offline Bruno Köferli
Messages: 9
Registered: January 2012
Junior Member
hi bertin,

we've recently started a tutorial on maven tycho integration. There you can find a way of how to get a very basic maven tycho setup for an existing Scout application. After that you can setup a CI build server like Hudson or Jenkins and you are almost there...
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #915928 is a reply to message #913403] Tue, 18 September 2012 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Judith Gull is currently offline Judith Gull
Messages: 49
Registered: February 2010
Member
I suggest to drop the support of Scout SDK for eclipse 3.5 for Kepler.

Scout RT (without RAP) still needs to be compatible to 3.5, but since most people are using targets anyways, I see no need to keep supporting this forever.
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #916293 is a reply to message #908577] Tue, 18 September 2012 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lukas Huser is currently offline Lukas Huser
Messages: 41
Registered: March 2010
Member
Quote:
According to an article by Michael Yuan CloudBees, OpenShift and maybe Amazon Beanstalk look interesting to me.


Matthias, thanks for this interesting article on different PaaS offerings. Personally, I would very much like to see Scout applications running on CloudBees or OpenShift.

Quote:
I would like to see Eclipse Scout support and/or compatibility for Google App Engine and Google Cloud SQL.


As far as I can tell from earlier investigations on this topic, it seems not very likely that we will see Scout applications running on Google App Engine. The restrictions of GAEs sandbox make it quite hard (if not impossible) to get an OSGi/Equinox environment running. There have been efforts [1],[2] in that direction with partial success, but there doesn't seem to be any recent activity on this topic...

[1] eclipsesource.com/blogs/2009/04/10/osgi-on-appengine
[2] jmj-eclipse.blogspot.ch/2009/08/osgi-r3-implementation-running-on.html

Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #927156 is a reply to message #906008] Sat, 29 September 2012 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adrian Moser
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2011
Member
JavaFX would be nice for UI rendering. Is it planned to abandon the Swing UI Layer for JavaFX, or to have both UI solutions?

Also, support for native JavaFX packaging would be great.

[Updated on: Sat, 29 September 2012 10:12]

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Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #927619 is a reply to message #927156] Sat, 29 September 2012 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias Zimmermann
Messages: 81
Registered: February 2010
Member
Thanks for you input. When we start to work on a JavaFX UI layer for Scout, this will first become an additional option (and not a replacement for Swing).

Before we abandon the Swing layer, we would want to discuss this topic with the Scout community well in advance. We will probably be driven by Oracle policy as they have alread stated that JavaFX will replace Swing in the future.

Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #987904 is a reply to message #906008] Wed, 28 November 2012 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias Zimmermann
Messages: 81
Registered: February 2010
Member
We have compiled a blog post to summarize the current status / decisions.
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #988293 is a reply to message #906008] Thu, 29 November 2012 10:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alex Schroeder is currently offline Alex Schroeder
Messages: 38
Registered: February 2010
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Member

I am most excited about the

SCOUT BOOK!!

Very Happy
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #988642 is a reply to message #988293] Fri, 30 November 2012 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
René  Eigenheer is currently offline René Eigenheer
Messages: 29
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
From page http://wiki.eclipse.org/Scout/Book/ I've tried following the link within the following text:

"To check for the current state of the book you may visit tools.bsiag.com/scoutbook/"

but...login required

how can we access the current state of the book ?

looking forward seeing book Wink
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #988682 is a reply to message #988642] Sat, 01 December 2012 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthias Zimmermann is currently offline Matthias Zimmermann
Messages: 81
Registered: February 2010
Member
This is wrong. The login requirement is not intended Sad
We'll try to fix this early next week
Tx for the notification
Re: Eclipse Scout Roadmap [message #988926 is a reply to message #988682] Mon, 03 December 2012 19:49 Go to previous message
René  Eigenheer is currently offline René Eigenheer
Messages: 29
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
now it works

thank you
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