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SCA and business processes [message #4827] Tue, 27 January 2009 04:10 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: michael.gebhart.googlemail.com

Hi,

I have a problem understanding the intention of SCA. Of course I know,
what I can do with it, but I do not see why and when I should use it.

In my opinion it seems to be well-suited for building software
applications that consists of several components.

But what about business processes and SCA? I have 10 existing systems
that provide their capability by means of web services. Now I want to
realize a business processes requiring those capabilities. Here I need
user interfaces to interact with the process and so on. Sure, I can use
bpel as implementation for a component.

But why should I do this? I have Webservices, I have BPEL-engines. I
don't see the advantages.

And if I want to have components I can use Java. Sure, SCA supports
several languages. But SCA does not support .NET as one of the most
important big players.

Maybe you can help me, why SOA needs SCA :) Isn't IBM the only
enterprise using SCA? Haven't seen SCA engines from Oracle/BEA, SAP etc.

Greetings

Mike
Re: SCA and business processes [message #4903 is a reply to message #4827] Tue, 27 January 2009 04:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephane Drapeau is currently offline Stephane Drapeau
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Michael,

Michael Gebhart a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I have a problem understanding the intention of SCA. Of course I know,
> what I can do with it, but I do not see why and when I should use it.
>
> In my opinion it seems to be well-suited for building software
> applications that consists of several components.
>
> But what about business processes and SCA? I have 10 existing systems
> that provide their capability by means of web services. Now I want to
> realize a business processes requiring those capabilities. Here I need
> user interfaces to interact with the process and so on. Sure, I can use
> bpel as implementation for a component.
>
> But why should I do this? I have Webservices, I have BPEL-engines. I
> don't see the advantages.
>
> And if I want to have components I can use Java. Sure, SCA supports
> several languages. But SCA does not support .NET as one of the most
> important big players.
>
> Maybe you can help me, why SOA needs SCA :) Isn't IBM the only
> enterprise using SCA? Haven't seen SCA engines from Oracle/BEA, SAP etc.

Some interesting articles:

- SOA is dead; long live Model-Driven SOA (January 26, 2009) [0]

- Oracle Tuxedo 10gr3 (January 21, 2009): [1]
"Certainly the most exciting part of these releases is the support for
the Service Component Architecture (SCA) in SALT 10gR3."

- SAP: [2]
SAP forms part of the OASIS SCA-BPEL TC.

- Relevance of the Service Component Architecture Standard to a Business
Process Expert (an old article from SAP): [3]


Stephane Drapeau
Obeo

[0]:
http://www.theenterprisearchitect.eu/archive/2009/01/26/soa- is-dead-long-live-model-driven-soa
[1]:
http://blogs.oracle.com/Tuxedo/2009/01/oracle_tuxedo_10gr3_r eleases_1.html
[2]:
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/index?rid=/webcontent/uuid/2 aff9bd8-0701-0010-5db4-beec85d4008e
[3]:
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/servlet/prt/portal/prtroot/docs/ library/uuid/7bf32533-0c01-0010-a6a2-eb16a23ea817
Re: SCA and business processes [message #4971 is a reply to message #4903] Tue, 27 January 2009 05:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: michael.gebhart.googlemail.com

Hi Stephane,

thanks for the articles. Very interesting. I didn't know that SAP/Oracle
are now really active in the SCA domain.

But isn't it something we already had with EJBs? An application server
was able to handle the communication even in distributed environments.

BTW: Is it possible to choose BPEL as implementation with Apache Tuscany?

Greetings

Mike
Re: SCA and business processes [message #5040 is a reply to message #4903] Tue, 27 January 2009 05:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: mickael.istria.openwide.fr

Hello Michael,

(I cross-post this message to the Java Workflow Tooling newsgroup since
BPM using SOA is an important topic for this project)


I would add to the list of articles Stephane pointed you another
interesting one:

* "BPM is not software engineering"
http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/01/BPMSoftwareEngineering

IMHO, SCA is "only" a Sofware Engineering technology that makes the
composition, use and exposition of services easier.
You should use it when you want to create an _application_ that makes
use of several fine-grained services to create more coarse-grained
business logic units (and eventually expose them as services).

According to this article (and my personal thoughts ;)) you should not
try to use SCA as a modeling or technical solution for Business Process.
BPM already has a set of technology (BPMS, workflow engines,
modelers...) and languages (BPMN, XPDL...) that are made for it.
The ability to call services in Business Processes must come from those
technologies.
A lot of BPM-related projects (eg JWT, Bonita, in a near future probably
OW2 Scarbo) are working to make consumption of services easy in business
process. But this is not yet a "native" feature.

Calling services in workflows is a topic I am currently working on in
the context of SCorWare & Scarbo projects. For this, we use OW2 Frascati
SCA implementation as a "Service Provider" to make the bridge between
BPM and SOA. The interest of using SCA in such case is that it provides
a common solution for several services bindings and implementations, but
also that we believe that SCA is a well-grained technology to implement
processes automated tasks (a business analyst models a business process
that contains some automated tasks, that tasks will have to be
implemented by a developer, in such situation SCA seems really fine).


PS: an implementation.bpel seems to exist in Tuscany, using ODE
http://tuscany.apache.org/sca-java-implementationbpel.html


Regards,
Mickael


Stephane Drapeau a écrit :
> Hi Michael,
>
> Michael Gebhart a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a problem understanding the intention of SCA. Of course I know,
>> what I can do with it, but I do not see why and when I should use it.
>>
>> In my opinion it seems to be well-suited for building software
>> applications that consists of several components.
>>
>> But what about business processes and SCA? I have 10 existing systems
>> that provide their capability by means of web services. Now I want to
>> realize a business processes requiring those capabilities. Here I need
>> user interfaces to interact with the process and so on. Sure, I can
>> use bpel as implementation for a component.
>>
>> But why should I do this? I have Webservices, I have BPEL-engines. I
>> don't see the advantages.
>>
>> And if I want to have components I can use Java. Sure, SCA supports
>> several languages. But SCA does not support .NET as one of the most
>> important big players.
>>
>> Maybe you can help me, why SOA needs SCA :) Isn't IBM the only
>> enterprise using SCA? Haven't seen SCA engines from Oracle/BEA, SAP etc.
>
> Some interesting articles:
>
> - SOA is dead; long live Model-Driven SOA (January 26, 2009) [0]
>
> - Oracle Tuxedo 10gr3 (January 21, 2009): [1]
> "Certainly the most exciting part of these releases is the support for
> the Service Component Architecture (SCA) in SALT 10gR3."
>
> - SAP: [2]
> SAP forms part of the OASIS SCA-BPEL TC.
>
> - Relevance of the Service Component Architecture Standard to a Business
> Process Expert (an old article from SAP): [3]
>
>
> Stephane Drapeau
> Obeo
>
> [0]:
> http://www.theenterprisearchitect.eu/archive/2009/01/26/soa- is-dead-long-live-model-driven-soa
>
> [1]:
> http://blogs.oracle.com/Tuxedo/2009/01/oracle_tuxedo_10gr3_r eleases_1.html
> [2]:
> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/index?rid=/webcontent/uuid/2 aff9bd8-0701-0010-5db4-beec85d4008e
>
> [3]:
> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/servlet/prt/portal/prtroot/docs/ library/uuid/7bf32533-0c01-0010-a6a2-eb16a23ea817
>
Re: SCA and business processes [message #5109 is a reply to message #5040] Tue, 27 January 2009 06:07 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: mickael.istria.openwide.fr

Failed crossposting
Sorry for spamming

Mickael Istria a écrit :
> Hello Michael,
>
> (I cross-post this message to the Java Workflow Tooling newsgroup since
> BPM using SOA is an important topic for this project)
>
>
> I would add to the list of articles Stephane pointed you another
> interesting one:
>
> * "BPM is not software engineering"
> http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/01/BPMSoftwareEngineering
>
> IMHO, SCA is "only" a Sofware Engineering technology that makes the
> composition, use and exposition of services easier.
> You should use it when you want to create an _application_ that makes
> use of several fine-grained services to create more coarse-grained
> business logic units (and eventually expose them as services).
>
> According to this article (and my personal thoughts ;)) you should not
> try to use SCA as a modeling or technical solution for Business Process.
> BPM already has a set of technology (BPMS, workflow engines,
> modelers...) and languages (BPMN, XPDL...) that are made for it.
> The ability to call services in Business Processes must come from those
> technologies.
> A lot of BPM-related projects (eg JWT, Bonita, in a near future probably
> OW2 Scarbo) are working to make consumption of services easy in business
> process. But this is not yet a "native" feature.
>
> Calling services in workflows is a topic I am currently working on in
> the context of SCorWare & Scarbo projects. For this, we use OW2 Frascati
> SCA implementation as a "Service Provider" to make the bridge between
> BPM and SOA. The interest of using SCA in such case is that it provides
> a common solution for several services bindings and implementations, but
> also that we believe that SCA is a well-grained technology to implement
> processes automated tasks (a business analyst models a business process
> that contains some automated tasks, that tasks will have to be
> implemented by a developer, in such situation SCA seems really fine).
>
>
> PS: an implementation.bpel seems to exist in Tuscany, using ODE
> http://tuscany.apache.org/sca-java-implementationbpel.html
>
>
> Regards,
> Mickael
>
>
> Stephane Drapeau a écrit :
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> Michael Gebhart a écrit :
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a problem understanding the intention of SCA. Of course I
>>> know, what I can do with it, but I do not see why and when I should
>>> use it.
>>>
>>> In my opinion it seems to be well-suited for building software
>>> applications that consists of several components.
>>>
>>> But what about business processes and SCA? I have 10 existing systems
>>> that provide their capability by means of web services. Now I want to
>>> realize a business processes requiring those capabilities. Here I
>>> need user interfaces to interact with the process and so on. Sure, I
>>> can use bpel as implementation for a component.
>>>
>>> But why should I do this? I have Webservices, I have BPEL-engines. I
>>> don't see the advantages.
>>>
>>> And if I want to have components I can use Java. Sure, SCA supports
>>> several languages. But SCA does not support .NET as one of the most
>>> important big players.
>>>
>>> Maybe you can help me, why SOA needs SCA :) Isn't IBM the only
>>> enterprise using SCA? Haven't seen SCA engines from Oracle/BEA, SAP etc.
>>
>> Some interesting articles:
>>
>> - SOA is dead; long live Model-Driven SOA (January 26, 2009) [0]
>>
>> - Oracle Tuxedo 10gr3 (January 21, 2009): [1]
>> "Certainly the most exciting part of these releases is the support for
>> the Service Component Architecture (SCA) in SALT 10gR3."
>>
>> - SAP: [2]
>> SAP forms part of the OASIS SCA-BPEL TC.
>>
>> - Relevance of the Service Component Architecture Standard to a
>> Business Process Expert (an old article from SAP): [3]
>>
>>
>> Stephane Drapeau
>> Obeo
>>
>> [0]:
>> http://www.theenterprisearchitect.eu/archive/2009/01/26/soa- is-dead-long-live-model-driven-soa
>>
>> [1]:
>> http://blogs.oracle.com/Tuxedo/2009/01/oracle_tuxedo_10gr3_r eleases_1.html
>>
>> [2]:
>> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/index?rid=/webcontent/uuid/2 aff9bd8-0701-0010-5db4-beec85d4008e
>>
>> [3]:
>> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/servlet/prt/portal/prtroot/docs/ library/uuid/7bf32533-0c01-0010-a6a2-eb16a23ea817
>>
Re: SCA and business processes [message #573918 is a reply to message #4827] Tue, 27 January 2009 04:58 Go to previous message
Stephane Drapeau is currently offline Stephane Drapeau
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Michael,

Michael Gebhart a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I have a problem understanding the intention of SCA. Of course I know,
> what I can do with it, but I do not see why and when I should use it.
>
> In my opinion it seems to be well-suited for building software
> applications that consists of several components.
>
> But what about business processes and SCA? I have 10 existing systems
> that provide their capability by means of web services. Now I want to
> realize a business processes requiring those capabilities. Here I need
> user interfaces to interact with the process and so on. Sure, I can use
> bpel as implementation for a component.
>
> But why should I do this? I have Webservices, I have BPEL-engines. I
> don't see the advantages.
>
> And if I want to have components I can use Java. Sure, SCA supports
> several languages. But SCA does not support .NET as one of the most
> important big players.
>
> Maybe you can help me, why SOA needs SCA :) Isn't IBM the only
> enterprise using SCA? Haven't seen SCA engines from Oracle/BEA, SAP etc.

Some interesting articles:

- SOA is dead; long live Model-Driven SOA (January 26, 2009) [0]

- Oracle Tuxedo 10gr3 (January 21, 2009): [1]
"Certainly the most exciting part of these releases is the support for
the Service Component Architecture (SCA) in SALT 10gR3."

- SAP: [2]
SAP forms part of the OASIS SCA-BPEL TC.

- Relevance of the Service Component Architecture Standard to a Business
Process Expert (an old article from SAP): [3]


Stephane Drapeau
Obeo

[0]:
http://www.theenterprisearchitect.eu/archive/2009/01/26/soa- is-dead-long-live-model-driven-soa
[1]:
http://blogs.oracle.com/Tuxedo/2009/01/oracle_tuxedo_10gr3_r eleases_1.html
[2]:
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/index?rid=/webcontent/uuid/2 aff9bd8-0701-0010-5db4-beec85d4008e
[3]:
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/servlet/prt/portal/prtroot/docs/ library/uuid/7bf32533-0c01-0010-a6a2-eb16a23ea817
Re: SCA and business processes [message #573956 is a reply to message #4903] Tue, 27 January 2009 05:29 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: michael.gebhart.googlemail.com

Hi Stephane,

thanks for the articles. Very interesting. I didn't know that SAP/Oracle
are now really active in the SCA domain.

But isn't it something we already had with EJBs? An application server
was able to handle the communication even in distributed environments.

BTW: Is it possible to choose BPEL as implementation with Apache Tuscany?

Greetings

Mike
Re: SCA and business processes [message #574007 is a reply to message #4903] Tue, 27 January 2009 05:56 Go to previous message
Mickael Istria is currently offline Mickael Istria
Messages: 735
Registered: July 2009
Location: Grenoble, France
Senior Member
Hello Michael,

(I cross-post this message to the Java Workflow Tooling newsgroup since
BPM using SOA is an important topic for this project)


I would add to the list of articles Stephane pointed you another
interesting one:

* "BPM is not software engineering"
http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/01/BPMSoftwareEngineering

IMHO, SCA is "only" a Sofware Engineering technology that makes the
composition, use and exposition of services easier.
You should use it when you want to create an _application_ that makes
use of several fine-grained services to create more coarse-grained
business logic units (and eventually expose them as services).

According to this article (and my personal thoughts ;)) you should not
try to use SCA as a modeling or technical solution for Business Process.
BPM already has a set of technology (BPMS, workflow engines,
modelers...) and languages (BPMN, XPDL...) that are made for it.
The ability to call services in Business Processes must come from those
technologies.
A lot of BPM-related projects (eg JWT, Bonita, in a near future probably
OW2 Scarbo) are working to make consumption of services easy in business
process. But this is not yet a "native" feature.

Calling services in workflows is a topic I am currently working on in
the context of SCorWare & Scarbo projects. For this, we use OW2 Frascati
SCA implementation as a "Service Provider" to make the bridge between
BPM and SOA. The interest of using SCA in such case is that it provides
a common solution for several services bindings and implementations, but
also that we believe that SCA is a well-grained technology to implement
processes automated tasks (a business analyst models a business process
that contains some automated tasks, that tasks will have to be
implemented by a developer, in such situation SCA seems really fine).


PS: an implementation.bpel seems to exist in Tuscany, using ODE
http://tuscany.apache.org/sca-java-implementationbpel.html


Regards,
Mickael


Stephane Drapeau a écrit :
> Hi Michael,
>
> Michael Gebhart a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a problem understanding the intention of SCA. Of course I know,
>> what I can do with it, but I do not see why and when I should use it.
>>
>> In my opinion it seems to be well-suited for building software
>> applications that consists of several components.
>>
>> But what about business processes and SCA? I have 10 existing systems
>> that provide their capability by means of web services. Now I want to
>> realize a business processes requiring those capabilities. Here I need
>> user interfaces to interact with the process and so on. Sure, I can
>> use bpel as implementation for a component.
>>
>> But why should I do this? I have Webservices, I have BPEL-engines. I
>> don't see the advantages.
>>
>> And if I want to have components I can use Java. Sure, SCA supports
>> several languages. But SCA does not support .NET as one of the most
>> important big players.
>>
>> Maybe you can help me, why SOA needs SCA :) Isn't IBM the only
>> enterprise using SCA? Haven't seen SCA engines from Oracle/BEA, SAP etc.
>
> Some interesting articles:
>
> - SOA is dead; long live Model-Driven SOA (January 26, 2009) [0]
>
> - Oracle Tuxedo 10gr3 (January 21, 2009): [1]
> "Certainly the most exciting part of these releases is the support for
> the Service Component Architecture (SCA) in SALT 10gR3."
>
> - SAP: [2]
> SAP forms part of the OASIS SCA-BPEL TC.
>
> - Relevance of the Service Component Architecture Standard to a Business
> Process Expert (an old article from SAP): [3]
>
>
> Stephane Drapeau
> Obeo
>
> [0]:
> http://www.theenterprisearchitect.eu/archive/2009/01/26/soa- is-dead-long-live-model-driven-soa
>
> [1]:
> http://blogs.oracle.com/Tuxedo/2009/01/oracle_tuxedo_10gr3_r eleases_1.html
> [2]:
> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/index?rid=/webcontent/uuid/2 aff9bd8-0701-0010-5db4-beec85d4008e
>
> [3]:
> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/servlet/prt/portal/prtroot/docs/ library/uuid/7bf32533-0c01-0010-a6a2-eb16a23ea817
>
Re: SCA and business processes [message #574033 is a reply to message #5040] Tue, 27 January 2009 06:07 Go to previous message
Mickael Istria is currently offline Mickael Istria
Messages: 735
Registered: July 2009
Location: Grenoble, France
Senior Member
Failed crossposting
Sorry for spamming

Mickael Istria a écrit :
> Hello Michael,
>
> (I cross-post this message to the Java Workflow Tooling newsgroup since
> BPM using SOA is an important topic for this project)
>
>
> I would add to the list of articles Stephane pointed you another
> interesting one:
>
> * "BPM is not software engineering"
> http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/01/BPMSoftwareEngineering
>
> IMHO, SCA is "only" a Sofware Engineering technology that makes the
> composition, use and exposition of services easier.
> You should use it when you want to create an _application_ that makes
> use of several fine-grained services to create more coarse-grained
> business logic units (and eventually expose them as services).
>
> According to this article (and my personal thoughts ;)) you should not
> try to use SCA as a modeling or technical solution for Business Process.
> BPM already has a set of technology (BPMS, workflow engines,
> modelers...) and languages (BPMN, XPDL...) that are made for it.
> The ability to call services in Business Processes must come from those
> technologies.
> A lot of BPM-related projects (eg JWT, Bonita, in a near future probably
> OW2 Scarbo) are working to make consumption of services easy in business
> process. But this is not yet a "native" feature.
>
> Calling services in workflows is a topic I am currently working on in
> the context of SCorWare & Scarbo projects. For this, we use OW2 Frascati
> SCA implementation as a "Service Provider" to make the bridge between
> BPM and SOA. The interest of using SCA in such case is that it provides
> a common solution for several services bindings and implementations, but
> also that we believe that SCA is a well-grained technology to implement
> processes automated tasks (a business analyst models a business process
> that contains some automated tasks, that tasks will have to be
> implemented by a developer, in such situation SCA seems really fine).
>
>
> PS: an implementation.bpel seems to exist in Tuscany, using ODE
> http://tuscany.apache.org/sca-java-implementationbpel.html
>
>
> Regards,
> Mickael
>
>
> Stephane Drapeau a écrit :
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> Michael Gebhart a écrit :
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a problem understanding the intention of SCA. Of course I
>>> know, what I can do with it, but I do not see why and when I should
>>> use it.
>>>
>>> In my opinion it seems to be well-suited for building software
>>> applications that consists of several components.
>>>
>>> But what about business processes and SCA? I have 10 existing systems
>>> that provide their capability by means of web services. Now I want to
>>> realize a business processes requiring those capabilities. Here I
>>> need user interfaces to interact with the process and so on. Sure, I
>>> can use bpel as implementation for a component.
>>>
>>> But why should I do this? I have Webservices, I have BPEL-engines. I
>>> don't see the advantages.
>>>
>>> And if I want to have components I can use Java. Sure, SCA supports
>>> several languages. But SCA does not support .NET as one of the most
>>> important big players.
>>>
>>> Maybe you can help me, why SOA needs SCA :) Isn't IBM the only
>>> enterprise using SCA? Haven't seen SCA engines from Oracle/BEA, SAP etc.
>>
>> Some interesting articles:
>>
>> - SOA is dead; long live Model-Driven SOA (January 26, 2009) [0]
>>
>> - Oracle Tuxedo 10gr3 (January 21, 2009): [1]
>> "Certainly the most exciting part of these releases is the support for
>> the Service Component Architecture (SCA) in SALT 10gR3."
>>
>> - SAP: [2]
>> SAP forms part of the OASIS SCA-BPEL TC.
>>
>> - Relevance of the Service Component Architecture Standard to a
>> Business Process Expert (an old article from SAP): [3]
>>
>>
>> Stephane Drapeau
>> Obeo
>>
>> [0]:
>> http://www.theenterprisearchitect.eu/archive/2009/01/26/soa- is-dead-long-live-model-driven-soa
>>
>> [1]:
>> http://blogs.oracle.com/Tuxedo/2009/01/oracle_tuxedo_10gr3_r eleases_1.html
>>
>> [2]:
>> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/index?rid=/webcontent/uuid/2 aff9bd8-0701-0010-5db4-beec85d4008e
>>
>> [3]:
>> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/servlet/prt/portal/prtroot/docs/ library/uuid/7bf32533-0c01-0010-a6a2-eb16a23ea817
>>
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