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Home » Modeling » Modeling (top-level project) » Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal
Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511284] Mon, 01 February 2010 05:34 Go to next message
Hasan Ceylan is currently offline Hasan CeylanFriend
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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Hello,

Attached is the PDF version of the forementioned EMF Build Manager Project
Proposal.

I would like EMF developers and EMF (and subprojects) committers to review
the document and forward their thoughts.

I am also looking for mentors for the proposal.

Below is the extraction of "Background" of the project. Please remember to
review the attached PDF for full proposal draft.

============================================================ =
BACKGROUND

EMF has been around for a long time. But the fact is that it lacked the
necessary IDE Build Manager integration ever since.
We think, the current code generation and validation toolset is below
eclipse UI quality standards and fell behind similar facility provisions
from the other projects.

For instance, given the current infrastructure, if a developer is working
with two ecore models that are dependent each other along with their
respective genmodel, when developer makes a change in the base model that
requires a change in the dependent ecore model, will need quite a lot of
clicks and at least 4 editor switches, 2 actions executions along with
several clicks to locate the action and run them.

Also during the generation process, the UI is blocked and having finished
the change on the base ecore, the developer cannot continue working on the
second ecore before the base model generation finishes. Further more there
is also need to switch to genmodels twice and initiate generation
delibarately.

In addition to this, if developer would like to validate the model in
between the unit of the works, that will require clicks to locate the
validation action, click to run the action and click to dismiss the
feedback.

It is also in our experience that the genmodel editors are kept open just
for triggering code genration. Furthermore, this not only clutters the
editor folder with unneeded editors, but also breaks the 'editor'
description for genmodel, as usualy once genmodels are set up, they very
seldom change, but needed to be open for code generation.
When used on large workspaces with more than a few model, problem becomes a
real burden.

This is where EBM steps in and delegates much of the work to background
build manager and prevents user distrubition with using the instruments like
auto build on resource save, Marker and Problem View instrumentation to
provide feedback.
============================================================ =

Regards,

--

Hasan Ceylan
hceylan@batoo.org
+90 (532) 713-5384
+90 (216) 332-5647


From Thomas Gray's poem, Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College (1742):
"Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."

--

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511385 is a reply to message #511284] Mon, 01 February 2010 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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[Updated on: Wed, 10 March 2010 14:13]

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511490 is a reply to message #511385] Mon, 01 February 2010 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
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Vlad,

How this relates to the post is beyond my understanding. How about
grinding your ax elsewhere?


Vlad Varnica wrote:
> This open source modeling market is not easy specially for
> contributors not making any money from their job.
> The question is to know how much EMF is strategic to some companies ?
> The other question could be is Athena strategic and important today ?
> we could see strange or last moment contributions if it goes totally
> the wrong way so just wait ......
>
> Vlad,
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511622 is a reply to message #511490] Tue, 02 February 2010 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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[Updated on: Wed, 10 March 2010 14:12]

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511666 is a reply to message #511622] Tue, 02 February 2010 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> Ed,
>
> Every good EMF developer knows that the needed job to upgrade to
> Athena is just two to three days and that you just need to change
> plugin dependencies :lol:
I have no idea why you're talking about Athena builds. Even if that
were relevant, exploiting Athena would not involve changing any plugin
dependencies.
> The question could be why so few persons have been trained on EMF
> technologies ?
So few? You've done a survey or is this another one of your aimless
reassertions.
> What is the EMF adoption by companies ?
I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.

http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009- demographics/

> So......this EMF project is dead for me
Certainly by now you've made your point clear and your poisonous
complaining has grown tiresome. The incessant whining is shrill. It
stands in sharp contrast to folks like Hasan who show up with creative
contributions.
> because except build dependencies change required for each new Eclipse
> build no quality has been added on EMF since 2005 !!
It was a very fine year. May you enjoy it in perpetuity.

--------------060005010000000108020501
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
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<meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
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<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Vlad,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Vlad Varnica wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">Ed,
<br>
<br>
Every good EMF developer knows that the needed job to upgrade to Athena
is just two to three days and that you just need to change plugin
dependencies  :lol: </blockquote>
I have no idea why you're talking about Athena builds.  Even if that
were relevant, exploiting Athena would not involve changing any plugin
dependencies.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">The
question could be why so few persons have been trained on EMF
technologies ?</blockquote>
So few?  You've done a survey or is this another one of your aimless
reassertions.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"> What
is the EMF adoption by companies ? <br>
</blockquote>
I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.  <br>
<blockquote><a
href=" http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009- demographics/"> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009- demographics/</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">So......this
EMF project is dead for me </blockquote>
Certainly by now you've made your point clear and your poisonous
complaining has grown tiresome.  The incessant whining is shrill.  It
stands in sharp contrast to folks like Hasan who show up with creative
contributions.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">because
except build dependencies change required for each new Eclipse build no
quality has been added on EMF since 2005 !!
<br>
</blockquote>
It was a very fine year.  May you enjoy it in perpetuity.<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------060005010000000108020501--
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511701 is a reply to message #511666] Tue, 02 February 2010 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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[Updated on: Wed, 10 March 2010 14:12]

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511707 is a reply to message #511701] Tue, 02 February 2010 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eike Stepper is currently offline Eike StepperFriend
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Vlad Varnica schrieb:
> Quote:
>> I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
>> places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
>> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009-
>> demographics/
>
>
> Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to
> Eclipsecon.
I have many customers (end users) who love, use and even invest in EMF /
Ecore. Only very few of them use UML in addition.

> The result of this survey is not relevant.
>
> My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they
> ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of
> EMF !! :twisted:
That's either a lie or an indication that we just operate in different
markets. I wonder if you will remember this fact in the future and make
your statements at least sound a little more relative and subjective.

Cheers
/Eike

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511715 is a reply to message #511707] Tue, 02 February 2010 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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[Updated on: Wed, 10 March 2010 14:11]

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511720 is a reply to message #511701] Tue, 02 February 2010 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hasan Ceylan is currently offline Hasan CeylanFriend
Messages: 198
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Hello Vlad & Ed,

I'll throw my 2c...

In a previous assignment we had a project more like an intranet application
where you manage document, make applications (which flow through a complex
400+ step BPM), integration with a SOA engine, task, inbox, etc... It was a
big government project with 500 daily users.

We chose the EMF / teneo, RAP(RCP), Databinding, hibernate, JTrecache,
equinox project stack. We also have written a simple editor to manipulate
EMF model.

I must admit I enjoyed defining my models in ecore. With the help of teneo
my DAO consisted only ~100 lines. Since the application security (this is
including down to input element levels with hidden/read/write granularity)
was so tight we also kept the security definitions in the ecore model.
We kept the database schema definitions along with the ecore classes, which
helped BI developers and DB admins to get updates momentarily (In the early
phase of the project there were weekly deployments).

I think one of the problems with java world is it has the J2EE definition.
90% times you make a project, you choose the Application server, JPA, Web
model etc for the project. But people believe "If it is a commercial /
corporate product it's gotta be J2EE compliant", which is a big bold and
IMHO unnecessary binding. Most of the time, you do not WORE! Not to mention
there is the saying "Write Once Debug Everywhere".

Lately application server vendors started adopting OSGI and we'll see where
this will go. But to be honest (this might require a correction) without
using equinox, you cannot use much of the eclipse technologies where the
base plugins require definitions via extension points. e4 with the new
dependency injection stuff may make this comment deprecated. But with the
more and on-the-target adoption of OSGI, we'll see more eclipse technologies
used outside RCP and IDE domain.

On the other hand, Ed can give more examples but from Aviation to Eclipse
independent Development tools and CRUD apps, RCP, (Riena RAP) is enjoying
more and more adoption. And it is becoming a fact that "If you go with RCP,
you gotta go with EMF"

Last but not the least, as an EMF newsgroup (or forum) follower, I think you
like EMF as well. To help more industry adoption, we (you, me and the
others) are the messengers. We should spread the word. On the project above
I mentioned, people were like 'Are you crazy you are taking way more risks,
how are you gonna get support', well, we used the SOA engine and DB of one
of the largest provider provider, we have a support ticket still open for 6
months, where I had over 20 interactions with RAP, Teneo, EMF team. (Ed
might remember the EMF databinding development).

In the end, the project was a big success and a breakthrough not in the
country but at the global level. I was actually planning to apply for
speaking in Eclipse Con but as, I left the company, this won't happen.

Check out [1], I think the reason for the drop in EMF is due to the crisis
where companies needed cheaper resources...

Regards,
Hasan

Vlad Varnica wrote:

[1] http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=EMF%2C++osgi&l=
> Quote:
>> I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
>> places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
>> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009-
>> demographics/
>
>
> Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to Eclipsecon.
> The result of this survey is not relevant.
>
> My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they
> ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of EMF
> !! :twisted:
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511729 is a reply to message #511715] Tue, 02 February 2010 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eike Stepper is currently offline Eike StepperFriend
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Vlad Varnica schrieb:
> UML as a graphical notation, Ecore as metamodel , and EMF as backbone
> are together representing the modeling value.
> EMF alone as a framework has no real value or don't have more than any
> other frameworks.
What I expected has happened: You don't want to or can not see how
subjective your statements are. I'm giving up.

> Your project should target Ecore+UML and not just EMF in order to have
> a real value and large adoption.
We're working on that.

>
> btw, this is your EMF curse !!
I don't see a curse. If you are seeing one it's probably yours.

Cheers
/Eike

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511779 is a reply to message #511729] Tue, 02 February 2010 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511824 is a reply to message #511779] Wed, 03 February 2010 01:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eike Stepper is currently offline Eike StepperFriend
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Vlad Varnica schrieb:
> This post is stupid as well as EMF/Ecore marketing strategy that this
> project has done in the last 7 years.
> I don't say that EMF is bad, this is actually excellent to generate
> the skeleton of your application what I don't agree is that EMF is the
> final stage of modeling and will replace UML.
> It seems to me that EMF is like the muslim extreme religion which
> consider itself as the final stage religion because created after. The
> reality is that we need both and should respect both but never try to
> attack or destroy the other !! EMF systematically attacked UML in the
> last few years and successfully created a fake dreaming story !!
>
> This is why I am so upset with Ed comments and this is why I have
> decided to start my personal war against EMF. Stop criticism against
> UML and I will stop attacking your EMF technology.
Thank you for your personal war and please don't stop it! It's the most
entertaining story in the community ;-)

Cheers
/Eike

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511941 is a reply to message #511824] Wed, 03 February 2010 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sven Efftinge is currently offline Sven EfftingeFriend
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It used to be entertaining, especially Ed's replies.
But lately it started to get annoying. Please stop it.

Sven

Eike Stepper schrieb:
> Vlad Varnica schrieb:
>> This post is stupid as well as EMF/Ecore marketing strategy that this
>> project has done in the last 7 years.
>> I don't say that EMF is bad, this is actually excellent to generate
>> the skeleton of your application what I don't agree is that EMF is the
>> final stage of modeling and will replace UML.
>> It seems to me that EMF is like the muslim extreme religion which
>> consider itself as the final stage religion because created after. The
>> reality is that we need both and should respect both but never try to
>> attack or destroy the other !! EMF systematically attacked UML in the
>> last few years and successfully created a fake dreaming story !!
>>
>> This is why I am so upset with Ed comments and this is why I have
>> decided to start my personal war against EMF. Stop criticism against
>> UML and I will stop attacking your EMF technology.
> Thank you for your personal war and please don't stop it! It's the most
> entertaining story in the community ;-)
>
> Cheers
> /Eike
>
> ----
> http://thegordian.blogspot.com
> http://twitter.com/eikestepper
>


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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511945 is a reply to message #511779] Wed, 03 February 2010 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
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Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> This post is stupid as well as EMF/Ecore marketing strategy that this
> project has done in the last 7 years.
If you refer to your own post then it's the first thing you've said in
this thread with which I agree.
> I don't say that EMF is bad, this is actually excellent to generate
> the skeleton of your application what I don't agree is that EMF is the
> final stage of modeling and will replace UML.
That's for each of us to judge for ourselves.
> It seems to me that EMF is like the muslim extreme religion
Oh great. Let's bring religion into the discussion. That should help
keep it technical.
> which consider itself as the final stage religion because created
> after. The reality is that we need both and should respect both but
> never try to attack or destroy the other !! EMF systematically
> attacked UML in the last few years and successfully created a fake
> dreaming story !!
You seem to be an expert on fake dreaming stories too.
>
> This is why I am so upset with Ed comments and this is why I have
> decided to start my personal war against EMF.
As long as you don't feel compelled to crash airplanes into buildings
full of people I'm sure your rhetoric will provide some entertainment
value.
> Stop criticism against UML and I will stop attacking your EMF technology.
At the end of a post like this you really have to question exactly who
is the religious fanatic?

While I will argue that UML has a valuable place in the community, that
it is ideal for solving a sizeable class of problems, I will also argue
that UML is not a panacea and that it is not ideal for all problems in
the known universe. Surely any reasonable person sees the world in
shades of gray where white and black are simply the extremes...
> Thanks,
>
> Vlad,
>
>
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511948 is a reply to message #511720] Wed, 03 February 2010 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26217
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hasan,

That for the interesting background story!


Hasan Ceylan wrote:
> Hello Vlad & Ed,
>
> I'll throw my 2c...
>
> In a previous assignment we had a project more like an intranet application
> where you manage document, make applications (which flow through a complex
> 400+ step BPM), integration with a SOA engine, task, inbox, etc... It was a
> big government project with 500 daily users.
>
> We chose the EMF / teneo, RAP(RCP), Databinding, hibernate, JTrecache,
> equinox project stack. We also have written a simple editor to manipulate
> EMF model.
>
> I must admit I enjoyed defining my models in ecore. With the help of teneo
> my DAO consisted only ~100 lines. Since the application security (this is
> including down to input element levels with hidden/read/write granularity)
> was so tight we also kept the security definitions in the ecore model.
> We kept the database schema definitions along with the ecore classes, which
> helped BI developers and DB admins to get updates momentarily (In the early
> phase of the project there were weekly deployments).
>
> I think one of the problems with java world is it has the J2EE definition.
> 90% times you make a project, you choose the Application server, JPA, Web
> model etc for the project. But people believe "If it is a commercial /
> corporate product it's gotta be J2EE compliant", which is a big bold and
> IMHO unnecessary binding. Most of the time, you do not WORE! Not to mention
> there is the saying "Write Once Debug Everywhere".
>
> Lately application server vendors started adopting OSGI and we'll see where
> this will go. But to be honest (this might require a correction) without
> using equinox, you cannot use much of the eclipse technologies where the
> base plugins require definitions via extension points. e4 with the new
> dependency injection stuff may make this comment deprecated. But with the
> more and on-the-target adoption of OSGI, we'll see more eclipse technologies
> used outside RCP and IDE domain.
>
> On the other hand, Ed can give more examples but from Aviation to Eclipse
> independent Development tools and CRUD apps, RCP, (Riena RAP) is enjoying
> more and more adoption. And it is becoming a fact that "If you go with RCP,
> you gotta go with EMF"
>
> Last but not the least, as an EMF newsgroup (or forum) follower, I think you
> like EMF as well. To help more industry adoption, we (you, me and the
> others) are the messengers. We should spread the word. On the project above
> I mentioned, people were like 'Are you crazy you are taking way more risks,
> how are you gonna get support', well, we used the SOA engine and DB of one
> of the largest provider provider, we have a support ticket still open for 6
> months, where I had over 20 interactions with RAP, Teneo, EMF team. (Ed
> might remember the EMF databinding development).
>
> In the end, the project was a big success and a breakthrough not in the
> country but at the global level. I was actually planning to apply for
> speaking in Eclipse Con but as, I left the company, this won't happen.
>
> Check out [1], I think the reason for the drop in EMF is due to the crisis
> where companies needed cheaper resources...
>
> Regards,
> Hasan
>
> Vlad Varnica wrote:
>
> [1] http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=EMF%2C++osgi&l=
>
>> Quote:
>>
>>> I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
>>> places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
>>> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009-
>>> demographics/
>>>
>> Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to Eclipsecon.
>> The result of this survey is not relevant.
>>
>> My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they
>> ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of EMF
>> !! :twisted:
>>
>
>
>
>

--------------080806080904090201050504
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hasan,<br>
<br>
That for the interesting background story! <br>
<br>
<br>
Hasan Ceylan wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hk9ja4$qkc$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hello Vlad &amp; Ed,

I'll throw my 2c...

In a previous assignment we had a project more like an intranet application
where you manage document, make applications (which flow through a complex
400+ step BPM), integration with a SOA engine, task, inbox, etc... It was a
big government project with 500 daily users.

We chose the EMF / teneo, RAP(RCP), Databinding, hibernate, JTrecache,
equinox project stack. We also have written a simple editor to manipulate
EMF model.

I must admit I enjoyed defining my models in ecore. With the help of teneo
my DAO consisted only ~100 lines. Since the application security (this is
including down to input element levels with hidden/read/write granularity)
was so tight we also kept the security definitions in the ecore model.
We kept the database schema definitions along with the ecore classes, which
helped BI developers and DB admins to get updates momentarily (In the early
phase of the project there were weekly deployments).

I think one of the problems with java world is it has the J2EE definition.
90% times you make a project, you choose the Application server, JPA, Web
model etc for the project. But people believe "If it is a commercial /
corporate product it's gotta be J2EE compliant", which is a big bold and
IMHO unnecessary binding. Most of the time, you do not WORE! Not to mention
there is the saying "Write Once Debug Everywhere".

Lately application server vendors started adopting OSGI and we'll see where
this will go. But to be honest (this might require a correction) without
using equinox, you cannot use much of the eclipse technologies where the
base plugins require definitions via extension points. e4 with the new
dependency injection stuff may make this comment deprecated. But with the
more and on-the-target adoption of OSGI, we'll see more eclipse technologies
used outside RCP and IDE domain.

On the other hand, Ed can give more examples but from Aviation to Eclipse
independent Development tools and CRUD apps, RCP, (Riena RAP) is enjoying
more and more adoption. And it is becoming a fact that "If you go with RCP,
you gotta go with EMF"

Last but not the least, as an EMF newsgroup (or forum) follower, I think you
like EMF as well. To help more industry adoption, we (you, me and the
others) are the messengers. We should spread the word. On the project above
I mentioned, people were like 'Are you crazy you are taking way more risks,
how are you gonna get support', well, we used the SOA engine and DB of one
of the largest provider provider, we have a support ticket still open for 6
months, where I had over 20 interactions with RAP, Teneo, EMF team. (Ed
might remember the EMF databinding development).

In the end, the project was a big success and a breakthrough not in the
country but at the global level. I was actually planning to apply for
speaking in Eclipse Con but as, I left the company, this won't happen.

Check out [1], I think the reason for the drop in EMF is due to the crisis
where companies needed cheaper resources...

Regards,
Hasan

Vlad Varnica wrote:

[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=EMF%2C++osgi&l=">http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=EMF%2C++osgi&amp;l=</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Quote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009">http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009</a>-
demographics/
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to Eclipsecon.
The result of this survey is not relevant.

My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they
ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of EMF
!! :twisted:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->


</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--------------080806080904090201050504--
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511971 is a reply to message #511948] Wed, 03 February 2010 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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Senior Member
............................................................ ....................................

[Updated on: Wed, 10 March 2010 14:10]

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #511999 is a reply to message #511971] Wed, 03 February 2010 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26217
Registered: July 2009
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Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> EMF project is for me dead today because:
> - the modeling expectations have never been reached.
You should not confuse your personal expectations with those of others.
> I mean that technically EMF is full of bugs and it would require a
> very large investment to make it usable today.
In actual fact, the number of bugzilla defects (as opposed to feature
enhancements) is about a handful.
> The problem is that IBM, Omondo or any other corporation don't want to
> invest anymore in this technology.
I don't remember Omondo ever investing anything. I understand it relied
significantly on public funds for development though. I've noticed SAP
investing significantly these days, but I guess they're such a tiny
little company they don't really count.
>
> - the EMF adoption has been very poor in real projects.
A baseless assertion.
> I don't even know except EclipseUML Omondo how many very complex
> projects have been created in the last 7 years ?
That's the real problem. You know almost nothing so you make things up.
>
> - EMF is perfect to generate a skeleton of an application but it is
> impossible to generate another quality code without erasing existing
> code manually codded.
Yet I do this myself on a regular basis, as do uncounted other clients.
> In my experience we had many bugs between 2002 and 2006 because we
> used EMF to generate code at each model change. It was a real
> disaster. Hundred of thousands of users have experienced diagrams
> crashed, model corruption, out of memory etc....
Neither EMF nor Java can be responsible for how downstream clients code
their application as a whole.
> Finally being very upset with the framework quality I required from
> the research team to manually fix bugs with JDK and not to regenerate
> a code from a model.
I'm sure it was a pleasure to work for you and your ability to retain
your employees was exemplary.
> Since 2007 we are not anymore using EMF code generator to re create
> code if the model change and preferred to manually update the
> application. The application was getting a lot better than previously
> using directly JDK and not EMF.
I'm sure hand coding the metadata is an interesting exercise in futility.
>
> - EMF is trying to target to many modeling domains and is not
> therefore a specialist in any specific modeling subject. This is a
> wrong architecture decision started at the project creation and it is
> too late to go back.
Wrong for you, but very right for the community.
>
> - EMF is too complex to understand and require 18 month full time
> training just in order to be able to use the framework in the right maner.
I wouldn't argue EMF is trivially simple, but I would argue that
complexity is in the eye of the beholder. Java itself take a long time
to learn
> How will today invest 18 month in such an unstable, none monetize
> technology ?
Others see it differently. They see a stable, reliable code base that's
used by a large and growing client base with many millions of dollars of
time invested in it.
>
>
> I don't say that Ecore/EMF are bad technology but just that if you try
> to cover all domains then you cover nothing as today. EMF is dead and
> please rest in peace !!
Yet you see to want to do precisely the same thing with UML. UML is
most certainly not simpler than Ecore, nor is the technology base as stable.
>
> Vlad,
>
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #512054 is a reply to message #511999] Wed, 03 February 2010 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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............................................................ ....................................

[Updated on: Wed, 10 March 2010 14:10]

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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #512073 is a reply to message #512054] Wed, 03 February 2010 19:34 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26217
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Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> If SAP is using EMF this is certainly not a good recommendation
> because in the last few years their development tool netwearver was
> real crap !!
Could you be more poisonous?
>
>
> I remember when they have selected togethersoft in 2002 as corporate
> modeling tool, and meeting them in a conference somewhere in Germany
> in 2005 during this short talk they said to me that EMF is not scalable.
> This was ridiculous to hear that Ecore /EMF are not scalable because
> this is one of the key advantage of this technology
It's amazing the type of FUD folks will spread isn't it? CDO certainly
helps with scaling...
>
> SAP should stop netweaver immediately and buy Tibco then they will
> have solid rock foundation on which they could build advanced modeling
> tools and use Ecore with UML :)
I'm sure they'll jump right on your latest recommendations.
>
> Vlad,
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618584 is a reply to message #511284] Mon, 01 February 2010 13:43 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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This open source modeling market is not easy specially for contributors not making any money from their job.
The question is to know how much EMF is strategic to some companies ?
The other question could be is Athena strategic and important today ?
we could see strange or last moment contributions if it goes totally the wrong way
so just wait ......

Vlad,
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618586 is a reply to message #618584] Mon, 01 February 2010 17:34 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26217
Registered: July 2009
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Vlad,

How this relates to the post is beyond my understanding. How about
grinding your ax elsewhere?


Vlad Varnica wrote:
> This open source modeling market is not easy specially for
> contributors not making any money from their job.
> The question is to know how much EMF is strategic to some companies ?
> The other question could be is Athena strategic and important today ?
> we could see strange or last moment contributions if it goes totally
> the wrong way so just wait ......
>
> Vlad,
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618587 is a reply to message #511490] Tue, 02 February 2010 10:22 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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Location: Milton Keynes - UK
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Ed,

Every good EMF developer knows that the needed job to upgrade to Athena is just two to three days and that you just need to change plugin dependencies :lol:
The question could be why so few persons have been trained on EMF technologies ? What is the EMF adoption by companies ?

So......this EMF project is dead for me because except build dependencies change required for each new Eclipse build no quality has been added on EMF since 2005 !!
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618588 is a reply to message #618587] Tue, 02 February 2010 13:38 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> Ed,
>
> Every good EMF developer knows that the needed job to upgrade to
> Athena is just two to three days and that you just need to change
> plugin dependencies :lol:
I have no idea why you're talking about Athena builds. Even if that
were relevant, exploiting Athena would not involve changing any plugin
dependencies.
> The question could be why so few persons have been trained on EMF
> technologies ?
So few? You've done a survey or is this another one of your aimless
reassertions.
> What is the EMF adoption by companies ?
I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.

http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009- demographics/

> So......this EMF project is dead for me
Certainly by now you've made your point clear and your poisonous
complaining has grown tiresome. The incessant whining is shrill. It
stands in sharp contrast to folks like Hasan who show up with creative
contributions.
> because except build dependencies change required for each new Eclipse
> build no quality has been added on EMF since 2005 !!
It was a very fine year. May you enjoy it in perpetuity.

--------------060005010000000108020501
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
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</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Vlad,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Vlad Varnica wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">Ed,
<br>
<br>
Every good EMF developer knows that the needed job to upgrade to Athena
is just two to three days and that you just need to change plugin
dependencies  :lol: </blockquote>
I have no idea why you're talking about Athena builds.  Even if that
were relevant, exploiting Athena would not involve changing any plugin
dependencies.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">The
question could be why so few persons have been trained on EMF
technologies ?</blockquote>
So few?  You've done a survey or is this another one of your aimless
reassertions.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"> What
is the EMF adoption by companies ? <br>
</blockquote>
I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.  <br>
<blockquote><a
href=" http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009- demographics/"> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009- demographics/</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">So......this
EMF project is dead for me </blockquote>
Certainly by now you've made your point clear and your poisonous
complaining has grown tiresome.  The incessant whining is shrill.  It
stands in sharp contrast to folks like Hasan who show up with creative
contributions.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hk8udi$ob5$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">because
except build dependencies change required for each new Eclipse build no
quality has been added on EMF since 2005 !!
<br>
</blockquote>
It was a very fine year.  May you enjoy it in perpetuity.<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------060005010000000108020501--
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618589 is a reply to message #511666] Tue, 02 February 2010 15:19 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
Quote:
> I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009- demographics/


Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to Eclipsecon. The result of this survey is not relevant.

My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of EMF !! :twisted:
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618590 is a reply to message #618589] Tue, 02 February 2010 15:44 Go to previous message
Eike Stepper is currently offline Eike StepperFriend
Messages: 5574
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Vlad Varnica schrieb:
> Quote:
>> I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
>> places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
>> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009-
>> demographics/
>
>
> Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to
> Eclipsecon.
I have many customers (end users) who love, use and even invest in EMF /
Ecore. Only very few of them use UML in addition.

> The result of this survey is not relevant.
>
> My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they
> ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of
> EMF !! :twisted:
That's either a lie or an indication that we just operate in different
markets. I wonder if you will remember this fact in the future and make
your statements at least sound a little more relative and subjective.

Cheers
/Eike

----
http://thegordian.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/eikestepper
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618591 is a reply to message #618590] Tue, 02 February 2010 16:06 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
UML as a graphical notation, Ecore as metamodel , and EMF as backbone are together representing the modeling value.
EMF alone as a framework has no real value or don't have more than any other frameworks. Your project should target Ecore+UML and not just EMF in order to have a real value and large adoption.

btw, this is your EMF curse !!
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618592 is a reply to message #618589] Tue, 02 February 2010 16:19 Go to previous message
Hasan Ceylan is currently offline Hasan CeylanFriend
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hello Vlad & Ed,

I'll throw my 2c...

In a previous assignment we had a project more like an intranet application
where you manage document, make applications (which flow through a complex
400+ step BPM), integration with a SOA engine, task, inbox, etc... It was a
big government project with 500 daily users.

We chose the EMF / teneo, RAP(RCP), Databinding, hibernate, JTrecache,
equinox project stack. We also have written a simple editor to manipulate
EMF model.

I must admit I enjoyed defining my models in ecore. With the help of teneo
my DAO consisted only ~100 lines. Since the application security (this is
including down to input element levels with hidden/read/write granularity)
was so tight we also kept the security definitions in the ecore model.
We kept the database schema definitions along with the ecore classes, which
helped BI developers and DB admins to get updates momentarily (In the early
phase of the project there were weekly deployments).

I think one of the problems with java world is it has the J2EE definition.
90% times you make a project, you choose the Application server, JPA, Web
model etc for the project. But people believe "If it is a commercial /
corporate product it's gotta be J2EE compliant", which is a big bold and
IMHO unnecessary binding. Most of the time, you do not WORE! Not to mention
there is the saying "Write Once Debug Everywhere".

Lately application server vendors started adopting OSGI and we'll see where
this will go. But to be honest (this might require a correction) without
using equinox, you cannot use much of the eclipse technologies where the
base plugins require definitions via extension points. e4 with the new
dependency injection stuff may make this comment deprecated. But with the
more and on-the-target adoption of OSGI, we'll see more eclipse technologies
used outside RCP and IDE domain.

On the other hand, Ed can give more examples but from Aviation to Eclipse
independent Development tools and CRUD apps, RCP, (Riena RAP) is enjoying
more and more adoption. And it is becoming a fact that "If you go with RCP,
you gotta go with EMF"

Last but not the least, as an EMF newsgroup (or forum) follower, I think you
like EMF as well. To help more industry adoption, we (you, me and the
others) are the messengers. We should spread the word. On the project above
I mentioned, people were like 'Are you crazy you are taking way more risks,
how are you gonna get support', well, we used the SOA engine and DB of one
of the largest provider provider, we have a support ticket still open for 6
months, where I had over 20 interactions with RAP, Teneo, EMF team. (Ed
might remember the EMF databinding development).

In the end, the project was a big success and a breakthrough not in the
country but at the global level. I was actually planning to apply for
speaking in Eclipse Con but as, I left the company, this won't happen.

Check out [1], I think the reason for the drop in EMF is due to the crisis
where companies needed cheaper resources...

Regards,
Hasan

Vlad Varnica wrote:

[1] http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=EMF%2C++osgi&l=
> Quote:
>> I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
>> places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
>> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009-
>> demographics/
>
>
> Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to Eclipsecon.
> The result of this survey is not relevant.
>
> My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they
> ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of EMF
> !! :twisted:
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618593 is a reply to message #618591] Tue, 02 February 2010 16:26 Go to previous message
Eike Stepper is currently offline Eike StepperFriend
Messages: 5574
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Vlad Varnica schrieb:
> UML as a graphical notation, Ecore as metamodel , and EMF as backbone
> are together representing the modeling value.
> EMF alone as a framework has no real value or don't have more than any
> other frameworks.
What I expected has happened: You don't want to or can not see how
subjective your statements are. I'm giving up.

> Your project should target Ecore+UML and not just EMF in order to have
> a real value and large adoption.
We're working on that.

>
> btw, this is your EMF curse !!
I don't see a curse. If you are seeing one it's probably yours.

Cheers
/Eike

----
http://thegordian.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/eikestepper
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618938 is a reply to message #511729] Tue, 02 February 2010 19:21 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
This post is stupid as well as EMF/Ecore marketing strategy that this project has done in the last 7 years.
I don't say that EMF is bad, this is actually excellent to generate the skeleton of your application what I don't agree is that EMF is the final stage of modeling and will replace UML.
It seems to me that EMF is like the muslim extreme religion which consider itself as the final stage religion because created after. The reality is that we need both and should respect both but never try to attack or destroy the other !! EMF systematically attacked UML in the last few years and successfully created a fake dreaming story !!

This is why I am so upset with Ed comments and this is why I have decided to start my personal war against EMF. Stop criticism against UML and I will stop attacking your EMF technology.
Thanks,

Vlad,
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618939 is a reply to message #618938] Wed, 03 February 2010 06:27 Go to previous message
Eike Stepper is currently offline Eike StepperFriend
Messages: 5574
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Vlad Varnica schrieb:
> This post is stupid as well as EMF/Ecore marketing strategy that this
> project has done in the last 7 years.
> I don't say that EMF is bad, this is actually excellent to generate
> the skeleton of your application what I don't agree is that EMF is the
> final stage of modeling and will replace UML.
> It seems to me that EMF is like the muslim extreme religion which
> consider itself as the final stage religion because created after. The
> reality is that we need both and should respect both but never try to
> attack or destroy the other !! EMF systematically attacked UML in the
> last few years and successfully created a fake dreaming story !!
>
> This is why I am so upset with Ed comments and this is why I have
> decided to start my personal war against EMF. Stop criticism against
> UML and I will stop attacking your EMF technology.
Thank you for your personal war and please don't stop it! It's the most
entertaining story in the community ;-)

Cheers
/Eike

----
http://thegordian.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/eikestepper
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618945 is a reply to message #618939] Wed, 03 February 2010 13:31 Go to previous message
Sven Efftinge is currently offline Sven EfftingeFriend
Messages: 1771
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
It used to be entertaining, especially Ed's replies.
But lately it started to get annoying. Please stop it.

Sven

Eike Stepper schrieb:
> Vlad Varnica schrieb:
>> This post is stupid as well as EMF/Ecore marketing strategy that this
>> project has done in the last 7 years.
>> I don't say that EMF is bad, this is actually excellent to generate
>> the skeleton of your application what I don't agree is that EMF is the
>> final stage of modeling and will replace UML.
>> It seems to me that EMF is like the muslim extreme religion which
>> consider itself as the final stage religion because created after. The
>> reality is that we need both and should respect both but never try to
>> attack or destroy the other !! EMF systematically attacked UML in the
>> last few years and successfully created a fake dreaming story !!
>>
>> This is why I am so upset with Ed comments and this is why I have
>> decided to start my personal war against EMF. Stop criticism against
>> UML and I will stop attacking your EMF technology.
> Thank you for your personal war and please don't stop it! It's the most
> entertaining story in the community ;-)
>
> Cheers
> /Eike
>
> ----
> http://thegordian.blogspot.com
> http://twitter.com/eikestepper
>


--
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Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618947 is a reply to message #618938] Wed, 03 February 2010 13:45 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26217
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> This post is stupid as well as EMF/Ecore marketing strategy that this
> project has done in the last 7 years.
If you refer to your own post then it's the first thing you've said in
this thread with which I agree.
> I don't say that EMF is bad, this is actually excellent to generate
> the skeleton of your application what I don't agree is that EMF is the
> final stage of modeling and will replace UML.
That's for each of us to judge for ourselves.
> It seems to me that EMF is like the muslim extreme religion
Oh great. Let's bring religion into the discussion. That should help
keep it technical.
> which consider itself as the final stage religion because created
> after. The reality is that we need both and should respect both but
> never try to attack or destroy the other !! EMF systematically
> attacked UML in the last few years and successfully created a fake
> dreaming story !!
You seem to be an expert on fake dreaming stories too.
>
> This is why I am so upset with Ed comments and this is why I have
> decided to start my personal war against EMF.
As long as you don't feel compelled to crash airplanes into buildings
full of people I'm sure your rhetoric will provide some entertainment
value.
> Stop criticism against UML and I will stop attacking your EMF technology.
At the end of a post like this you really have to question exactly who
is the religious fanatic?

While I will argue that UML has a valuable place in the community, that
it is ideal for solving a sizeable class of problems, I will also argue
that UML is not a panacea and that it is not ideal for all problems in
the known universe. Surely any reasonable person sees the world in
shades of gray where white and black are simply the extremes...
> Thanks,
>
> Vlad,
>
>
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618950 is a reply to message #511720] Wed, 03 February 2010 13:51 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26217
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080806080904090201050504
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hasan,

That for the interesting background story!


Hasan Ceylan wrote:
> Hello Vlad & Ed,
>
> I'll throw my 2c...
>
> In a previous assignment we had a project more like an intranet application
> where you manage document, make applications (which flow through a complex
> 400+ step BPM), integration with a SOA engine, task, inbox, etc... It was a
> big government project with 500 daily users.
>
> We chose the EMF / teneo, RAP(RCP), Databinding, hibernate, JTrecache,
> equinox project stack. We also have written a simple editor to manipulate
> EMF model.
>
> I must admit I enjoyed defining my models in ecore. With the help of teneo
> my DAO consisted only ~100 lines. Since the application security (this is
> including down to input element levels with hidden/read/write granularity)
> was so tight we also kept the security definitions in the ecore model.
> We kept the database schema definitions along with the ecore classes, which
> helped BI developers and DB admins to get updates momentarily (In the early
> phase of the project there were weekly deployments).
>
> I think one of the problems with java world is it has the J2EE definition.
> 90% times you make a project, you choose the Application server, JPA, Web
> model etc for the project. But people believe "If it is a commercial /
> corporate product it's gotta be J2EE compliant", which is a big bold and
> IMHO unnecessary binding. Most of the time, you do not WORE! Not to mention
> there is the saying "Write Once Debug Everywhere".
>
> Lately application server vendors started adopting OSGI and we'll see where
> this will go. But to be honest (this might require a correction) without
> using equinox, you cannot use much of the eclipse technologies where the
> base plugins require definitions via extension points. e4 with the new
> dependency injection stuff may make this comment deprecated. But with the
> more and on-the-target adoption of OSGI, we'll see more eclipse technologies
> used outside RCP and IDE domain.
>
> On the other hand, Ed can give more examples but from Aviation to Eclipse
> independent Development tools and CRUD apps, RCP, (Riena RAP) is enjoying
> more and more adoption. And it is becoming a fact that "If you go with RCP,
> you gotta go with EMF"
>
> Last but not the least, as an EMF newsgroup (or forum) follower, I think you
> like EMF as well. To help more industry adoption, we (you, me and the
> others) are the messengers. We should spread the word. On the project above
> I mentioned, people were like 'Are you crazy you are taking way more risks,
> how are you gonna get support', well, we used the SOA engine and DB of one
> of the largest provider provider, we have a support ticket still open for 6
> months, where I had over 20 interactions with RAP, Teneo, EMF team. (Ed
> might remember the EMF databinding development).
>
> In the end, the project was a big success and a breakthrough not in the
> country but at the global level. I was actually planning to apply for
> speaking in Eclipse Con but as, I left the company, this won't happen.
>
> Check out [1], I think the reason for the drop in EMF is due to the crisis
> where companies needed cheaper resources...
>
> Regards,
> Hasan
>
> Vlad Varnica wrote:
>
> [1] http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=EMF%2C++osgi&l=
>
>> Quote:
>>
>>> I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
>>> places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
>>> http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009-
>>> demographics/
>>>
>> Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to Eclipsecon.
>> The result of this survey is not relevant.
>>
>> My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they
>> ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of EMF
>> !! :twisted:
>>
>
>
>
>

--------------080806080904090201050504
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hasan,<br>
<br>
That for the interesting background story! <br>
<br>
<br>
Hasan Ceylan wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hk9ja4$qkc$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hello Vlad &amp; Ed,

I'll throw my 2c...

In a previous assignment we had a project more like an intranet application
where you manage document, make applications (which flow through a complex
400+ step BPM), integration with a SOA engine, task, inbox, etc... It was a
big government project with 500 daily users.

We chose the EMF / teneo, RAP(RCP), Databinding, hibernate, JTrecache,
equinox project stack. We also have written a simple editor to manipulate
EMF model.

I must admit I enjoyed defining my models in ecore. With the help of teneo
my DAO consisted only ~100 lines. Since the application security (this is
including down to input element levels with hidden/read/write granularity)
was so tight we also kept the security definitions in the ecore model.
We kept the database schema definitions along with the ecore classes, which
helped BI developers and DB admins to get updates momentarily (In the early
phase of the project there were weekly deployments).

I think one of the problems with java world is it has the J2EE definition.
90% times you make a project, you choose the Application server, JPA, Web
model etc for the project. But people believe "If it is a commercial /
corporate product it's gotta be J2EE compliant", which is a big bold and
IMHO unnecessary binding. Most of the time, you do not WORE! Not to mention
there is the saying "Write Once Debug Everywhere".

Lately application server vendors started adopting OSGI and we'll see where
this will go. But to be honest (this might require a correction) without
using equinox, you cannot use much of the eclipse technologies where the
base plugins require definitions via extension points. e4 with the new
dependency injection stuff may make this comment deprecated. But with the
more and on-the-target adoption of OSGI, we'll see more eclipse technologies
used outside RCP and IDE domain.

On the other hand, Ed can give more examples but from Aviation to Eclipse
independent Development tools and CRUD apps, RCP, (Riena RAP) is enjoying
more and more adoption. And it is becoming a fact that "If you go with RCP,
you gotta go with EMF"

Last but not the least, as an EMF newsgroup (or forum) follower, I think you
like EMF as well. To help more industry adoption, we (you, me and the
others) are the messengers. We should spread the word. On the project above
I mentioned, people were like 'Are you crazy you are taking way more risks,
how are you gonna get support', well, we used the SOA engine and DB of one
of the largest provider provider, we have a support ticket still open for 6
months, where I had over 20 interactions with RAP, Teneo, EMF team. (Ed
might remember the EMF databinding development).

In the end, the project was a big success and a breakthrough not in the
country but at the global level. I was actually planning to apply for
speaking in Eclipse Con but as, I left the company, this won't happen.

Check out [1], I think the reason for the drop in EMF is due to the crisis
where companies needed cheaper resources...

Regards,
Hasan

Vlad Varnica wrote:

[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=EMF%2C++osgi&l=">http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=EMF%2C++osgi&amp;l=</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Quote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I've not done a survey myself, but according to EclipseCon stats, EMF
places third only to JDT, and RCP in terms of usage.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009">http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/eclipsecon-2009</a>-
demographics/
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Nobody uses EMF except few plugin providers which are going to Eclipsecon.
The result of this survey is not relevant.

My personal survey is that I asked 100 companies using Eclipse if they
ever used EMF except for testing, The result was 0 professional use of EMF
!! :twisted:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->


</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--------------080806080904090201050504--
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618954 is a reply to message #511948] Wed, 03 February 2010 15:01 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
EMF project is for me dead today because:
- the modeling expectations have never been reached. I mean that technically EMF is full of bugs and it would require a very large investment to make it usable today. The problem is that IBM, Omondo or any other corporation don't want to invest anymore in this technology.

- the EMF adoption has been very poor in real projects. I don't even know except EclipseUML Omondo how many very complex projects have been created in the last 7 years ?

- EMF is perfect to generate a skeleton of an application but it is impossible to generate another quality code without erasing existing code manually codded. In my experience we had many bugs between 2002 and 2006 because we used EMF to generate code at each model change. It was a real disaster. Hundred of thousands of users have experienced diagrams crashed, model corruption, out of memory etc....
Finally being very upset with the framework quality I required from the research team to manually fix bugs with JDK and not to regenerate a code from a model. Since 2007 we are not anymore using EMF code generator to re create code if the model change and preferred to manually update the application. The application was getting a lot better than previously using directly JDK and not EMF.

- EMF is trying to target to many modeling domains and is not therefore a specialist in any specific modeling subject. This is a wrong architecture decision started at the project creation and it is too late to go back.

- EMF is too complex to understand and require 18 month full time training just in order to be able to use the framework in the right maner. How will today invest 18 month in such an unstable, none monetize technology ?


I don't say that Ecore/EMF are bad technology but just that if you try to cover all domains then you cover nothing as today.
EMF is dead and please rest in peace !!

Vlad,
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618956 is a reply to message #618954] Wed, 03 February 2010 15:48 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26217
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> EMF project is for me dead today because:
> - the modeling expectations have never been reached.
You should not confuse your personal expectations with those of others.
> I mean that technically EMF is full of bugs and it would require a
> very large investment to make it usable today.
In actual fact, the number of bugzilla defects (as opposed to feature
enhancements) is about a handful.
> The problem is that IBM, Omondo or any other corporation don't want to
> invest anymore in this technology.
I don't remember Omondo ever investing anything. I understand it relied
significantly on public funds for development though. I've noticed SAP
investing significantly these days, but I guess they're such a tiny
little company they don't really count.
>
> - the EMF adoption has been very poor in real projects.
A baseless assertion.
> I don't even know except EclipseUML Omondo how many very complex
> projects have been created in the last 7 years ?
That's the real problem. You know almost nothing so you make things up.
>
> - EMF is perfect to generate a skeleton of an application but it is
> impossible to generate another quality code without erasing existing
> code manually codded.
Yet I do this myself on a regular basis, as do uncounted other clients.
> In my experience we had many bugs between 2002 and 2006 because we
> used EMF to generate code at each model change. It was a real
> disaster. Hundred of thousands of users have experienced diagrams
> crashed, model corruption, out of memory etc....
Neither EMF nor Java can be responsible for how downstream clients code
their application as a whole.
> Finally being very upset with the framework quality I required from
> the research team to manually fix bugs with JDK and not to regenerate
> a code from a model.
I'm sure it was a pleasure to work for you and your ability to retain
your employees was exemplary.
> Since 2007 we are not anymore using EMF code generator to re create
> code if the model change and preferred to manually update the
> application. The application was getting a lot better than previously
> using directly JDK and not EMF.
I'm sure hand coding the metadata is an interesting exercise in futility.
>
> - EMF is trying to target to many modeling domains and is not
> therefore a specialist in any specific modeling subject. This is a
> wrong architecture decision started at the project creation and it is
> too late to go back.
Wrong for you, but very right for the community.
>
> - EMF is too complex to understand and require 18 month full time
> training just in order to be able to use the framework in the right maner.
I wouldn't argue EMF is trivially simple, but I would argue that
complexity is in the eye of the beholder. Java itself take a long time
to learn
> How will today invest 18 month in such an unstable, none monetize
> technology ?
Others see it differently. They see a stable, reliable code base that's
used by a large and growing client base with many millions of dollars of
time invested in it.
>
>
> I don't say that Ecore/EMF are bad technology but just that if you try
> to cover all domains then you cover nothing as today. EMF is dead and
> please rest in peace !!
Yet you see to want to do precisely the same thing with UML. UML is
most certainly not simpler than Ecore, nor is the technology base as stable.
>
> Vlad,
>
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618959 is a reply to message #511999] Wed, 03 February 2010 18:13 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
If SAP is using EMF this is certainly not a good recommendation because in the last few years their development tool netwearver was real crap !!

I remember when they have selected togethersoft in 2002 as corporate modeling tool, and meeting them in a conference somewhere in Germany in 2005 during this short talk they said to me that EMF is not scalable.
This was ridiculous to hear that Ecore /EMF are not scalable because this is one of the key advantage of this technology

SAP should stop netweaver immediately and buy Tibco then they will have solid rock foundation on which they could build advanced modeling tools and use Ecore with UML :)

Vlad,
Re: Appeal for review from modeling community to review EMF Build Manager Project Proposal [message #618967 is a reply to message #618959] Wed, 03 February 2010 19:34 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26217
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> If SAP is using EMF this is certainly not a good recommendation
> because in the last few years their development tool netwearver was
> real crap !!
Could you be more poisonous?
>
>
> I remember when they have selected togethersoft in 2002 as corporate
> modeling tool, and meeting them in a conference somewhere in Germany
> in 2005 during this short talk they said to me that EMF is not scalable.
> This was ridiculous to hear that Ecore /EMF are not scalable because
> this is one of the key advantage of this technology
It's amazing the type of FUD folks will spread isn't it? CDO certainly
helps with scaling...
>
> SAP should stop netweaver immediately and buy Tibco then they will
> have solid rock foundation on which they could build advanced modeling
> tools and use Ecore with UML :)
I'm sure they'll jump right on your latest recommendations.
>
> Vlad,
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