Home » Eclipse Projects » Technology Project and PMC » [Proposal] GUI language
| [Proposal] GUI language [message #4069] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 10:08  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: guest.guest.no
Hello,
I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
or not which enables :
- to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
at most the concepts,
- but being more readable than an XML syntax
- and enabling to express behaviours
This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
swt/jface.
The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
views.
There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
with Java.
regards
Jacques
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #4300 is a reply to message #4069] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 12:11  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dominic.nospam.com
I agree with the idea of declarative gui. Now using something other than xml
will make me throw up. There are so many xml readers that any one can cook
up an xml2{tcl,swing,swt,mfc,xWindow,etc..) in a week end. There are only 2
avenues in declarative gui arena.
1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by some
ide).
"Jacques" <guest@guest.no> wrote in message
news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> or not which enables :
> - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> at most the concepts,
> - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> - and enabling to express behaviours
> This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> swt/jface.
> The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> views.
> There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> with Java.
> regards
> Jacques
>
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #4438 is a reply to message #4300] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 12:34 |
| Eclipse User |
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I agree with jacques for my own. I think that a dclarative GUi language in
XML is not the \"panacee\". Why that ?
- it is not readable
- it is not concise
- we must also have a behavioral language associated with. Actually if we
don\'t have this, soon or later we will have to add such a feature like
javascript with...
I don\'t know if TK is right choice, but I think defining a small
declarative language should not be too complicated because the concepts
are not so many...
regards
Xavier
dominic wrote:
> I agree with the idea of declarative gui. Now using something other than xml
> will make me throw up. There are so many xml readers that any one can cook
> up an xml2{tcl,swing,swt,mfc,xWindow,etc..) in a week end. There are only 2
> avenues in declarative gui arena.
> 1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
> 2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by some
> ide).
> \"Jacques\" <guest@guest.no> wrote in message
> news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > Hello,
> > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> > or not which enables :
> > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> > at most the concepts,
> > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > swt/jface.
> > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> > views.
> > There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> > TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> > with Java.
> > regards
> > Jacques
> >
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #4508 is a reply to message #4438] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 12:38 |
| Eclipse User |
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Another point in favor of the specific language is the ability to have a
debugger. It is a major point. has somebody tried to debug a XSLT program?
So maybe we don't have any more a pure declarative language ;-)..
xme wrote:
> I agree with jacques for my own. I think that a dclarative GUi language in
> XML is not the \"panacee\". Why that ?
> - it is not readable
> - it is not concise
> - we must also have a behavioral language associated with. Actually if we
> don\'t have this, soon or later we will have to add such a feature like
> javascript with...
> I don\'t know if TK is right choice, but I think defining a small
> declarative language should not be too complicated because the concepts
> are not so many...
> regards
> Xavier
> dominic wrote:
> > I agree with the idea of declarative gui. Now using something other than
xml
> > will make me throw up. There are so many xml readers that any one can cook
> > up an xml2{tcl,swing,swt,mfc,xWindow,etc..) in a week end. There are only 2
> > avenues in declarative gui arena.
> > 1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
> > 2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by some
> > ide).
> > \"Jacques\" <guest@guest.no> wrote in message
> > news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > > Hello,
> > > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> > > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> > > or not which enables :
> > > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> > > at most the concepts,
> > > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > > swt/jface.
> > > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> > > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> > > views.
> > > There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> > > TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> > > with Java.
> > > regards
> > > Jacques
> > >
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #5265 is a reply to message #4069] |
Wed, 10 July 2002 17:12 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eric.rizzo.jibeinc.com
Jacques wrote:
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> or not which enables :
> - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> at most the concepts,
> - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> - and enabling to express behaviours
> This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> swt/jface.
> The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> views.
There is an existing product/project that uses an XML language to write
Swing GUIs declaratively. It does much more than just express widgets
and layouts, though. It uses the idea of generic ValueModels (ala
VisualWorks Smalltalk) to hook models up to the views (widgets). At
runtime, the XML UI specification is used to generate Swing objects and
they are wired together automatically based on the declared
relationships between the models and the widgets (and between the models
and each other). It is extremely powerful - you can develop a UI with
complex behavior (such as multiple views of the same data,
tree/card-panel [windoze explorer-type] UIs, etc.) with much less Java
code than Swing generally requires.
This product is named XMLTalk
( http://www.trcinc.com/knowledge/software/xmltalk/xmltalk_hom e.asp). I
have been a co-developer on it, and I know the original and current
"owner" is now an Eclipse user who might be interested in developing an
SWT version and/or a Eclipse plug-in.
Eric
--
Eric Rizzo
Software Developer
Jibe, Inc.
http://www.jibeinc.com
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #6470 is a reply to message #5265] |
Thu, 11 July 2002 01:40 |
| Eclipse User |
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Hi Eric,
If so, would this plugin be free or commercial? I think the idea is not
bad, even if my experience on VisualWorks Smalltalk GUI format (a little
bit like the VA smalltlk one) didn't give me a big satisfaction...
regards
Xavier
Eric Rizzo wrote:
> Jacques wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> > or not which enables :
> > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> > at most the concepts,
> > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > swt/jface.
> > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> > views.
> There is an existing product/project that uses an XML language to write
> Swing GUIs declaratively. It does much more than just express widgets
> and layouts, though. It uses the idea of generic ValueModels (ala
> VisualWorks Smalltalk) to hook models up to the views (widgets). At
> runtime, the XML UI specification is used to generate Swing objects and
> they are wired together automatically based on the declared
> relationships between the models and the widgets (and between the models
> and each other). It is extremely powerful - you can develop a UI with
> complex behavior (such as multiple views of the same data,
> tree/card-panel [windoze explorer-type] UIs, etc.) with much less Java
> code than Swing generally requires.
> This product is named XMLTalk
> ( http://www.trcinc.com/knowledge/software/xmltalk/xmltalk_hom e.asp). I
> have been a co-developer on it, and I know the original and current
> "owner" is now an Eclipse user who might be interested in developing an
> SWT version and/or a Eclipse plug-in.
> Eric
> --
> Eric Rizzo
> Software Developer
> Jibe, Inc.
> http://www.jibeinc.com
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #6654 is a reply to message #6470] |
Thu, 11 July 2002 11:49 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eric.rizzo.jibeinc.com
xme wrote:
> Hi Eric,
> If so, would this plugin be free or commercial? I think the idea is not
> bad, even if my experience on VisualWorks Smalltalk GUI format (a little
> bit like the VA smalltlk one) didn't give me a big satisfaction...
> regards
> Xavier
1) Since XMLTalk itself is what you might call "semi-commercial" (it's
free to get and use, but not open-source) I suspect a plug-in written by
its owner ((TRC/Perot Systems) would likely be the same. If however,
someone were to write a plug-in that generated XMLTalk UI specs (XML
files) and helped with the Java code that is needed to support a given
XMLTalk application, that kind of tool could be open-source, independent
of TRC/Perot Systems. I know that the original developer (Frank) has
been lobbying within his company to get XMLTalk released as open-source,
but has met some resistance so far.
2) XMLTalk currently sits on top of Swing. Writing an SWT version of it
would require some serious changes to the inner workings of it -
probably making the pieces that build the widget objects pluggable so
you could have a Swing builder, an SWT builder, etc. Making it
pluggable like that has been discussed, but not started (yet?). That
said, an SWT version is not all that useful right now because SWT usage
is not widespread outside of Eclipse plug-in developers. If SWT becomes
popular for non-Eclipse apps, then an SWT XMLTalk would be more worth
the effort.
3) Not sure what you mean by "VisualWorks Smalltalk GUI format", but
XMLTalk only borrows the idea of ValueModels. It does not borrow any of
the view side of things from VisualWorks. Generic models that can be
tied to any type of view are very powerful - a concept that Swing's MVC
implementation sorely misses.
BTW, if you have more questions about XMLTalk, I encourage you to join
the developer's forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xmltalk-dev/
Eric
--
Eric Rizzo
Software Developer
Jibe, Inc.
http://www.jibeinc.com
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #6670 is a reply to message #4508] |
Thu, 11 July 2002 12:27 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com
XSLT isn't pure declarative, it is merely functional (stateless). You can
write programs in XSLT if you try hard enough. ;-}
Bob
"xme" <xmehaut@apri-group.com> wrote in message
news:agf3i6$a8$1@rogue.oti.com...
> Another point in favor of the specific language is the ability to have a
> debugger. It is a major point. has somebody tried to debug a XSLT program?
> So maybe we don't have any more a pure declarative language ;-)..
>
>
> xme wrote:
>
> > I agree with jacques for my own. I think that a dclarative GUi language
in
> > XML is not the \"panacee\". Why that ?
> > - it is not readable
> > - it is not concise
> > - we must also have a behavioral language associated with. Actually if
we
> > don\'t have this, soon or later we will have to add such a feature like
> > javascript with...
> > I don\'t know if TK is right choice, but I think defining a small
> > declarative language should not be too complicated because the concepts
> > are not so many...
> > regards
> > Xavier
>
>
> > dominic wrote:
>
> > > I agree with the idea of declarative gui. Now using something other
than
> xml
> > > will make me throw up. There are so many xml readers that any one can
cook
> > > up an xml2{tcl,swing,swt,mfc,xWindow,etc..) in a week end. There are
only 2
> > > avenues in declarative gui arena.
> > > 1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
> > > 2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by
some
> > > ide).
>
>
> > > \"Jacques\" <guest@guest.no> wrote in message
> > > news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > > > Hello,
> > > > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > > > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI
builder.
> > > > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with
Eclipse
> > > > or not which enables :
> > > > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by
abstracting
> > > > at most the concepts,
> > > > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > > > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > > > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > > > swt/jface.
> > > > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should
be
> > > > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm
dynamically
> > > > views.
> > > > There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is
named
> > > > TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical
interfaces
> > > > with Java.
> > > > regards
> > > > Jacques
> > > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #31439 is a reply to message #4069] |
Wed, 16 October 2002 08:45 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: alf.ifb.bv.tu-berlin.de
I don't want to offend anybody. But that is certainly NOT what we want!
XML?
If you really want to do something like that, probably most of us agree
that XML is 'the choice' to do something like that. Nothing else is that
easy
to parse and handle as XML.
Another language?
In order to define a gui language that supports as much features as
Swing (I don't know much about SWT), it will certainly not easier to
program in that language than programming in Java. You still would be
overwhelmed with thousands of components, layouts, borders, buttons
and so on. So what do you really get of it then? Debugging will be worse
or even unpossible. New plug-ins would be needed that support the
developper when coding in this language. I am saying that no developer
would ever want to use your language because it will certainly be more
complex and less supported by tools than Java.
It does make sense?
Your idea does make sense in a way as XMLTalk or XUL, where the
available features in your GUI are limited in order to fullfill some GUI
guidelines or for Rapid Prototyping.
And it does make sense as a format to exchange GUI descriptions between
GUI Builders.
Too much Java code?
What is so bad about much Java code, with all the tool support that is
available?
What you really want?
Is a powerful and still easy to use GUI-Builder, so that learning the whole
Swing/SWT Api is needless.
greetings, alf
"Jacques" <guest@guest.no> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> or not which enables :
> - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> at most the concepts,
> - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> - and enabling to express behaviours
> This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> swt/jface.
> The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> views.
> There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> with Java.
> regards
> Jacques
>
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #31885 is a reply to message #31439] |
Thu, 17 October 2002 13:51 |
| Eclipse User |
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> Your idea does make sense in a way as XMLTalk or XUL, where the
> available features in your GUI are limited in order to fullfill some GUI
> guidelines or for Rapid Prototyping.
What limitations are you referring to here? Don't know much about XUL,
but XMLTalk does not prevent you from using the underlying Swing API
to do whatever you want to the widgets constructed from XML if needed.
My experience is that it is almost never needed though.
Frank Sauer
"Alf Schiefelbein" <alf@ifb.bv.tu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:aojlh0$at4$1@rogue.oti.com...
> I don't want to offend anybody. But that is certainly NOT what we want!
>
> XML?
> If you really want to do something like that, probably most of us agree
> that XML is 'the choice' to do something like that. Nothing else is that
> easy
> to parse and handle as XML.
>
> Another language?
> In order to define a gui language that supports as much features as
> Swing (I don't know much about SWT), it will certainly not easier to
> program in that language than programming in Java. You still would be
> overwhelmed with thousands of components, layouts, borders, buttons
> and so on. So what do you really get of it then? Debugging will be worse
> or even unpossible. New plug-ins would be needed that support the
> developper when coding in this language. I am saying that no developer
> would ever want to use your language because it will certainly be more
> complex and less supported by tools than Java.
>
> It does make sense?
> Your idea does make sense in a way as XMLTalk or XUL, where the
> available features in your GUI are limited in order to fullfill some GUI
> guidelines or for Rapid Prototyping.
> And it does make sense as a format to exchange GUI descriptions between
> GUI Builders.
>
> Too much Java code?
> What is so bad about much Java code, with all the tool support that is
> available?
>
> What you really want?
> Is a powerful and still easy to use GUI-Builder, so that learning the
whole
> Swing/SWT Api is needless.
>
> greetings, alf
>
> "Jacques" <guest@guest.no> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > Hello,
> > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> > or not which enables :
> > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> > at most the concepts,
> > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > swt/jface.
> > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm
dynamically
> > views.
> > There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is
named
> > TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> > with Java.
> > regards
> > Jacques
> >
>
>
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #31991 is a reply to message #31885] |
Fri, 18 October 2002 17:20 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: alf.ifb.bv.tu-berlin.de
"Frank Sauer" <frank.sauer@trcinc.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:aomriq$bu8$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > Your idea does make sense in a way as XMLTalk or XUL, where the
> > available features in your GUI are limited in order to fullfill some GUI
> > guidelines or for Rapid Prototyping.
>
>
> What limitations are you referring to here? Don't know much about XUL,
> but XMLTalk does not prevent you from using the underlying Swing API
> to do whatever you want to the widgets constructed from XML if needed.
> My experience is that it is almost never needed though.
>
> Frank Sauer
Hello Frank!
I have to admit that I am not too familar (never used it) with XUL and
XMLTalk.
What I meant is that if you offer all the options of gui designing that you
have
in Java for XML, coding in XML will not be any easier. Defining your gui
in XML only makes sense if you are agreeing on some default values, i.e.
border=5, backgroundcolor=grey, and so on. If you want to specify all those
values in XML the same as you usually have to in Java, the XML will not be
any
prettier.
And here it comes to one of my big critics of Swing/AWT. A concept of
reasonable
default values is missing or at least not documented well enough! Why do I
always
have to set the border of my panels by hand in order to make the gui a
little pretty?
And so on ... Understand what I mean?
Although I don't know XUL and XMLTalk, I am pretty sure that there strength
is not the XML but some other concept behind, like the assignment of
reasonable
default values or some other concept that makes it possible to define a
pretty gui
with as few statements as possible.
greetings, alf
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #39056 is a reply to message #4069] |
Thu, 19 December 2002 21:49 |
| Eclipse User |
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Jacques wrote:
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
<snip>
Please pardon my ignorance, as I've only been using Eclipse with any
vigor for about a month...
Is a GUI language necessary? Couldn't something like the GEF function
as a base for creating a visual layout editor, then pipe it's output
through a code generator? I ask, because I have no clue if it's
possible with the framework; I only know it's there because a plugin I
use requires it. IMHO, if that is possible, why not leverage a
tool/framework that was developed specifically for handling graphics
within Eclipse?
Cheers,
Randy
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| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #566704 is a reply to message #4069] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 10:11 |
| Eclipse User |
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or Ruby ;-)
Jacques wrote:
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> or not which enables :
> - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> at most the concepts,
> - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> - and enabling to express behaviours
> This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> swt/jface.
> The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> views.
> There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> with Java.
> regards
> Jacques
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| some examples [message #566733 is a reply to message #4069] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 10:15 |
| Eclipse User |
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here are some examples defined in TK :
* List box
listbox .list -width 20 -height 10 -setgrid 1
pack .list -fill x
list insert 0 yellow gray green blue red black white
* Check button
proc print_v {} {
global v_top v_middle v_bottom
puts [format "top: %s middle: %s bottom: %s" $v_top $v_middle $v_bottom]
}
checkbutton .top -text top -anchor w -variable v_top
checkbutton .middle -text middle -anchor w -variable v_middle
checkbutton .bottom -text bottom -anchor w -variable v_bottom
pack .top .middle .bottom -side top -fill x
button .b -text Quit -command exit
pack .b
bind all <1> {print_v}
* Frames
frame .f1
frame .f2
pack .f1 .f2 -side left
button .f1.b1 -text "Button1" -command {puts "push button1!!"}
button .f1.b2 -text "Button2" -command {puts "push button2!!"}
button .f2.b -text "Quit" -command exit
pack .f1.b1 .f1.b2 .f2.b -fill x
* labels
label .l -text "Hello World!"
pack .l -fill x
*Menus
frame .mbar -relief raised -bd 2
pack .mbar -fill x
menubutton .mbar.file -text {File} -underline 0 -menu .mbar.file.menu
menubutton .mbar.help -text {Help} -underline 0 -menu .mbar.help.menu
pack .mbar.file .mbar.help -side left -padx 1m
menu .mbar.file.menu
mbar.file.menu add command -label "New..." -underline 0 \
-command {puts "opening new file"}
mbar.file.menu add command -label "Quit" -underline 0 \
-command exit
menu .mbar.help.menu
mbar.help.menu add command -label "About" -underline 0 \
-command {puts "This is menu example."}
and so on...
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #566782 is a reply to message #4069] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 12:11 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
I agree with the idea of declarative gui. Now using something other than xml
will make me throw up. There are so many xml readers that any one can cook
up an xml2{tcl,swing,swt,mfc,xWindow,etc..) in a week end. There are only 2
avenues in declarative gui arena.
1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by some
ide).
"Jacques" <guest@guest.no> wrote in message
news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> or not which enables :
> - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> at most the concepts,
> - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> - and enabling to express behaviours
> This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> swt/jface.
> The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> views.
> There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> with Java.
> regards
> Jacques
>
|
|
| |
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #566822 is a reply to message #4300] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 12:34 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
I agree with jacques for my own. I think that a dclarative GUi language in
XML is not the \"panacee\". Why that ?
- it is not readable
- it is not concise
- we must also have a behavioral language associated with. Actually if we
don\'t have this, soon or later we will have to add such a feature like
javascript with...
I don\'t know if TK is right choice, but I think defining a small
declarative language should not be too complicated because the concepts
are not so many...
regards
Xavier
dominic wrote:
> I agree with the idea of declarative gui. Now using something other than xml
> will make me throw up. There are so many xml readers that any one can cook
> up an xml2{tcl,swing,swt,mfc,xWindow,etc..) in a week end. There are only 2
> avenues in declarative gui arena.
> 1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
> 2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by some
> ide).
> \"Jacques\" <guest@guest.no> wrote in message
> news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > Hello,
> > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> > or not which enables :
> > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> > at most the concepts,
> > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > swt/jface.
> > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> > views.
> > There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> > TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> > with Java.
> > regards
> > Jacques
> >
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #566842 is a reply to message #4438] |
Tue, 09 July 2002 12:38 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
Another point in favor of the specific language is the ability to have a
debugger. It is a major point. has somebody tried to debug a XSLT program?
So maybe we don't have any more a pure declarative language ;-)..
xme wrote:
> I agree with jacques for my own. I think that a dclarative GUi language in
> XML is not the \"panacee\". Why that ?
> - it is not readable
> - it is not concise
> - we must also have a behavioral language associated with. Actually if we
> don\'t have this, soon or later we will have to add such a feature like
> javascript with...
> I don\'t know if TK is right choice, but I think defining a small
> declarative language should not be too complicated because the concepts
> are not so many...
> regards
> Xavier
> dominic wrote:
> > I agree with the idea of declarative gui. Now using something other than
xml
> > will make me throw up. There are so many xml readers that any one can cook
> > up an xml2{tcl,swing,swt,mfc,xWindow,etc..) in a week end. There are only 2
> > avenues in declarative gui arena.
> > 1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
> > 2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by some
> > ide).
> > \"Jacques\" <guest@guest.no> wrote in message
> > news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > > Hello,
> > > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> > > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> > > or not which enables :
> > > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> > > at most the concepts,
> > > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > > swt/jface.
> > > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> > > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> > > views.
> > > There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> > > TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> > > with Java.
> > > regards
> > > Jacques
> > >
|
|
| |
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #566994 is a reply to message #4369] |
Wed, 10 July 2002 06:28 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
Originally posted by: unknown.dot.not
Stein M. Eliassen wrote:
> dominic wrote:
>
>> 1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
>> 2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by
>> some
>> ide).
>>
>
> I think both options are interesting.
>
> With a SWT implementation of the xul-specification
> (http://mozilla.org/projects/xul/xul.html) and a xul-builder we could
> have a very nice tool.
>
> Stein
>
This sounds really exciting. Does xul handle
all the different layout options that swt
provides?
Polle
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #567016 is a reply to message #4855] |
Wed, 10 July 2002 09:46 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
polle@snave wrote:
> This sounds really exciting. Does xul handle
> all the different layout options that swt
> provides?
>
They have something called boxes and grids, but I'm not sure if those
are sufficient or if we need to add some variants.
Stein
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #567153 is a reply to message #4069] |
Wed, 10 July 2002 17:12 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
Jacques wrote:
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> or not which enables :
> - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> at most the concepts,
> - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> - and enabling to express behaviours
> This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> swt/jface.
> The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> views.
There is an existing product/project that uses an XML language to write
Swing GUIs declaratively. It does much more than just express widgets
and layouts, though. It uses the idea of generic ValueModels (ala
VisualWorks Smalltalk) to hook models up to the views (widgets). At
runtime, the XML UI specification is used to generate Swing objects and
they are wired together automatically based on the declared
relationships between the models and the widgets (and between the models
and each other). It is extremely powerful - you can develop a UI with
complex behavior (such as multiple views of the same data,
tree/card-panel [windoze explorer-type] UIs, etc.) with much less Java
code than Swing generally requires.
This product is named XMLTalk
( http://www.trcinc.com/knowledge/software/xmltalk/xmltalk_hom e.asp). I
have been a co-developer on it, and I know the original and current
"owner" is now an Eclipse user who might be interested in developing an
SWT version and/or a Eclipse plug-in.
Eric
--
Eric Rizzo
Software Developer
Jibe, Inc.
http://www.jibeinc.com
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #567420 is a reply to message #5265] |
Thu, 11 July 2002 01:40 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
Hi Eric,
If so, would this plugin be free or commercial? I think the idea is not
bad, even if my experience on VisualWorks Smalltalk GUI format (a little
bit like the VA smalltlk one) didn't give me a big satisfaction...
regards
Xavier
Eric Rizzo wrote:
> Jacques wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> > or not which enables :
> > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> > at most the concepts,
> > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > swt/jface.
> > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> > views.
> There is an existing product/project that uses an XML language to write
> Swing GUIs declaratively. It does much more than just express widgets
> and layouts, though. It uses the idea of generic ValueModels (ala
> VisualWorks Smalltalk) to hook models up to the views (widgets). At
> runtime, the XML UI specification is used to generate Swing objects and
> they are wired together automatically based on the declared
> relationships between the models and the widgets (and between the models
> and each other). It is extremely powerful - you can develop a UI with
> complex behavior (such as multiple views of the same data,
> tree/card-panel [windoze explorer-type] UIs, etc.) with much less Java
> code than Swing generally requires.
> This product is named XMLTalk
> ( http://www.trcinc.com/knowledge/software/xmltalk/xmltalk_hom e.asp). I
> have been a co-developer on it, and I know the original and current
> "owner" is now an Eclipse user who might be interested in developing an
> SWT version and/or a Eclipse plug-in.
> Eric
> --
> Eric Rizzo
> Software Developer
> Jibe, Inc.
> http://www.jibeinc.com
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #567760 is a reply to message #6470] |
Thu, 11 July 2002 11:49 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
xme wrote:
> Hi Eric,
> If so, would this plugin be free or commercial? I think the idea is not
> bad, even if my experience on VisualWorks Smalltalk GUI format (a little
> bit like the VA smalltlk one) didn't give me a big satisfaction...
> regards
> Xavier
1) Since XMLTalk itself is what you might call "semi-commercial" (it's
free to get and use, but not open-source) I suspect a plug-in written by
its owner ((TRC/Perot Systems) would likely be the same. If however,
someone were to write a plug-in that generated XMLTalk UI specs (XML
files) and helped with the Java code that is needed to support a given
XMLTalk application, that kind of tool could be open-source, independent
of TRC/Perot Systems. I know that the original developer (Frank) has
been lobbying within his company to get XMLTalk released as open-source,
but has met some resistance so far.
2) XMLTalk currently sits on top of Swing. Writing an SWT version of it
would require some serious changes to the inner workings of it -
probably making the pieces that build the widget objects pluggable so
you could have a Swing builder, an SWT builder, etc. Making it
pluggable like that has been discussed, but not started (yet?). That
said, an SWT version is not all that useful right now because SWT usage
is not widespread outside of Eclipse plug-in developers. If SWT becomes
popular for non-Eclipse apps, then an SWT XMLTalk would be more worth
the effort.
3) Not sure what you mean by "VisualWorks Smalltalk GUI format", but
XMLTalk only borrows the idea of ValueModels. It does not borrow any of
the view side of things from VisualWorks. Generic models that can be
tied to any type of view are very powerful - a concept that Swing's MVC
implementation sorely misses.
BTW, if you have more questions about XMLTalk, I encourage you to join
the developer's forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xmltalk-dev/
Eric
--
Eric Rizzo
Software Developer
Jibe, Inc.
http://www.jibeinc.com
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #567793 is a reply to message #4508] |
Thu, 11 July 2002 12:27 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com
XSLT isn't pure declarative, it is merely functional (stateless). You can
write programs in XSLT if you try hard enough. ;-}
Bob
"xme" <xmehaut@apri-group.com> wrote in message
news:agf3i6$a8$1@rogue.oti.com...
> Another point in favor of the specific language is the ability to have a
> debugger. It is a major point. has somebody tried to debug a XSLT program?
> So maybe we don't have any more a pure declarative language ;-)..
>
>
> xme wrote:
>
> > I agree with jacques for my own. I think that a dclarative GUi language
in
> > XML is not the \"panacee\". Why that ?
> > - it is not readable
> > - it is not concise
> > - we must also have a behavioral language associated with. Actually if
we
> > don\'t have this, soon or later we will have to add such a feature like
> > javascript with...
> > I don\'t know if TK is right choice, but I think defining a small
> > declarative language should not be too complicated because the concepts
> > are not so many...
> > regards
> > Xavier
>
>
> > dominic wrote:
>
> > > I agree with the idea of declarative gui. Now using something other
than
> xml
> > > will make me throw up. There are so many xml readers that any one can
cook
> > > up an xml2{tcl,swing,swt,mfc,xWindow,etc..) in a week end. There are
only 2
> > > avenues in declarative gui arena.
> > > 1) code in xml and write a gui engine (done by mozilla xul)
> > > 2) code in xml and write a compiler to turn it into real gui. (done by
some
> > > ide).
>
>
> > > \"Jacques\" <guest@guest.no> wrote in message
> > > news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > > > Hello,
> > > > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > > > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI
builder.
> > > > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with
Eclipse
> > > > or not which enables :
> > > > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by
abstracting
> > > > at most the concepts,
> > > > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > > > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > > > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > > > swt/jface.
> > > > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should
be
> > > > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm
dynamically
> > > > views.
> > > > There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is
named
> > > > TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical
interfaces
> > > > with Java.
> > > > regards
> > > > Jacques
> > > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #584756 is a reply to message #4069] |
Wed, 16 October 2002 08:45 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
I don't want to offend anybody. But that is certainly NOT what we want!
XML?
If you really want to do something like that, probably most of us agree
that XML is 'the choice' to do something like that. Nothing else is that
easy
to parse and handle as XML.
Another language?
In order to define a gui language that supports as much features as
Swing (I don't know much about SWT), it will certainly not easier to
program in that language than programming in Java. You still would be
overwhelmed with thousands of components, layouts, borders, buttons
and so on. So what do you really get of it then? Debugging will be worse
or even unpossible. New plug-ins would be needed that support the
developper when coding in this language. I am saying that no developer
would ever want to use your language because it will certainly be more
complex and less supported by tools than Java.
It does make sense?
Your idea does make sense in a way as XMLTalk or XUL, where the
available features in your GUI are limited in order to fullfill some GUI
guidelines or for Rapid Prototyping.
And it does make sense as a format to exchange GUI descriptions between
GUI Builders.
Too much Java code?
What is so bad about much Java code, with all the tool support that is
available?
What you really want?
Is a powerful and still easy to use GUI-Builder, so that learning the whole
Swing/SWT Api is needless.
greetings, alf
"Jacques" <guest@guest.no> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> or not which enables :
> - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> at most the concepts,
> - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> - and enabling to express behaviours
> This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> swt/jface.
> The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm dynamically
> views.
> There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is named
> TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> with Java.
> regards
> Jacques
>
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #584944 is a reply to message #31439] |
Thu, 17 October 2002 13:51 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
> Your idea does make sense in a way as XMLTalk or XUL, where the
> available features in your GUI are limited in order to fullfill some GUI
> guidelines or for Rapid Prototyping.
What limitations are you referring to here? Don't know much about XUL,
but XMLTalk does not prevent you from using the underlying Swing API
to do whatever you want to the widgets constructed from XML if needed.
My experience is that it is almost never needed though.
Frank Sauer
"Alf Schiefelbein" <alf@ifb.bv.tu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:aojlh0$at4$1@rogue.oti.com...
> I don't want to offend anybody. But that is certainly NOT what we want!
>
> XML?
> If you really want to do something like that, probably most of us agree
> that XML is 'the choice' to do something like that. Nothing else is that
> easy
> to parse and handle as XML.
>
> Another language?
> In order to define a gui language that supports as much features as
> Swing (I don't know much about SWT), it will certainly not easier to
> program in that language than programming in Java. You still would be
> overwhelmed with thousands of components, layouts, borders, buttons
> and so on. So what do you really get of it then? Debugging will be worse
> or even unpossible. New plug-ins would be needed that support the
> developper when coding in this language. I am saying that no developer
> would ever want to use your language because it will certainly be more
> complex and less supported by tools than Java.
>
> It does make sense?
> Your idea does make sense in a way as XMLTalk or XUL, where the
> available features in your GUI are limited in order to fullfill some GUI
> guidelines or for Rapid Prototyping.
> And it does make sense as a format to exchange GUI descriptions between
> GUI Builders.
>
> Too much Java code?
> What is so bad about much Java code, with all the tool support that is
> available?
>
> What you really want?
> Is a powerful and still easy to use GUI-Builder, so that learning the
whole
> Swing/SWT Api is needless.
>
> greetings, alf
>
> "Jacques" <guest@guest.no> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:ageqpf$p9v$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > Hello,
> > I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
> > applications. This language could be a pre-requisite for a GUI builder.
> > The intention under this is to create a language integrated with Eclipse
> > or not which enables :
> > - to create easily windows, panels, buttons, and so on... by abstracting
> > at most the concepts,
> > - but being more readable than an XML syntax
> > - and enabling to express behaviours
> > This language would generate java byte code and would be match onto
> > swt/jface.
> > The purpose of this language is not to make algorithms (which should be
> > done in Java) but to describe GUI, and to be able to programm
dynamically
> > views.
> > There exists a simple but powerful syntax to express GUi, and it is
named
> > TCL/TK. I would propose to use this syntax to build graphical interfaces
> > with Java.
> > regards
> > Jacques
> >
>
>
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #584996 is a reply to message #31885] |
Fri, 18 October 2002 17:20 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
"Frank Sauer" <frank.sauer@trcinc.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:aomriq$bu8$1@rogue.oti.com...
> > Your idea does make sense in a way as XMLTalk or XUL, where the
> > available features in your GUI are limited in order to fullfill some GUI
> > guidelines or for Rapid Prototyping.
>
>
> What limitations are you referring to here? Don't know much about XUL,
> but XMLTalk does not prevent you from using the underlying Swing API
> to do whatever you want to the widgets constructed from XML if needed.
> My experience is that it is almost never needed though.
>
> Frank Sauer
Hello Frank!
I have to admit that I am not too familar (never used it) with XUL and
XMLTalk.
What I meant is that if you offer all the options of gui designing that you
have
in Java for XML, coding in XML will not be any easier. Defining your gui
in XML only makes sense if you are agreeing on some default values, i.e.
border=5, backgroundcolor=grey, and so on. If you want to specify all those
values in XML the same as you usually have to in Java, the XML will not be
any
prettier.
And here it comes to one of my big critics of Swing/AWT. A concept of
reasonable
default values is missing or at least not documented well enough! Why do I
always
have to set the border of my panels by hand in order to make the gui a
little pretty?
And so on ... Understand what I mean?
Although I don't know XUL and XMLTalk, I am pretty sure that there strength
is not the XML but some other concept behind, like the assignment of
reasonable
default values or some other concept that makes it possible to define a
pretty gui
with as few statements as possible.
greetings, alf
|
|
|
| Re: [Proposal] GUI language [message #587852 is a reply to message #4069] |
Thu, 19 December 2002 21:49 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
Jacques wrote:
> Hello,
> I would suggest to create a GUI language for building graphical
<snip>
Please pardon my ignorance, as I've only been using Eclipse with any
vigor for about a month...
Is a GUI language necessary? Couldn't something like the GEF function
as a base for creating a visual layout editor, then pipe it's output
through a code generator? I ask, because I have no clue if it's
possible with the framework; I only know it's there because a plugin I
use requires it. IMHO, if that is possible, why not leverage a
tool/framework that was developed specifically for handling graphics
within Eclipse?
Cheers,
Randy
|
|
|
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