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Installer vs. usability at all [message #1735855] Thu, 23 June 2016 10:28 Go to next message
Sven Hofrichter is currently offline Sven HofrichterFriend
Messages: 2
Registered: June 2016
Junior Member
Hi,

I just loaded the neon-version of eclipse. But what did you change? I can't believe it, that I need to load a 44,1MB installer first, BEFORE I can install a JEE-Eclipse. Sorry guys, but:
1st) I'm working for companies, where direct internet access is not possible or not the first choice! I kick yourself out of those teams.
2nd) The installer is loading for 10min right now and shows "Artifact download is progressing very slowly from the following hosts" all the time on 50t-DSL line! Can't believe, how much you waste my time now.

You set the wrong priority in my opinion:
1st) Eclipse must fundamental change its strategy. Customers-like comfort for developers? Why? A nerd wants to load something, unzipping it and setup the tool of its choice on first run - without a wizard, which is doing some magic.
2nd) stability, compatibility and cooperate design between plugins needs to be reviewed and checked before the can be published to the eclipse-universe. Plugins with advertising - sorry - ban them.

Well, it took me 10min (with some breaks, to check the installer status) to write this comment and the installer is loading and loading and loading. I don't know what it does, but you will loose more and more developers, as soon as you don't change those nerving stuff.

...oh its finished now! But what the f**** is that. I chose a central folder for my eclipse, but why did you install all the shit in my profile? It's on my private computer, but in the company, where the profile is loaded via network, ....no, guys, that's it. I'm looking for an alternative now! Evil or Very Mad

Buy!!!!

Kind regards
a old elcipse fan, which becomes more and more dissatisfied over the time. But now it's over!
Re: Installer vs. usability at all [message #1735891 is a reply to message #1735855] Thu, 23 June 2016 12:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nitin Dahyabhai is currently online Nitin DahyabhaiFriend
Messages: 3470
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member

Directly below the big download button, you should see a link that takes you to a page with the same packages you're used to, updated for the Neon release.

Nitin Dahyabhai
Eclipse Web Tools Platform
Re: Installer vs. usability at all [message #1735949 is a reply to message #1735855] Thu, 23 June 2016 22:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 30353
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Sven,

Comments below.


On 23.06.2016 08:50, Sven Hofrichter wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just loaded the neon-version of eclipse. But what did you change? I
> can't believe it, that I need to load a 44,1MB installer first, BEFORE
> I can install a JEE-Eclipse.
That's not actually true, as Nitin points out.
> Sorry guys, but:
> 1st) I'm working for companies, where direct internet access is not
> possible or not the first choice! I kick yourself out of those teams.
So your company can download the big zip like before if that's what you
want.
> 2nd) The installer is loading for 10min right now and shows
> "Artifact download is progressing very slowly from the following hosts"
> all the time on 50t-DSL line!
It's the servers that determine the speed of download, so when all the
mirror servers are slow, because so many people are installing from that
at once, that's life. Downloading the big zip from them will also be
slow. Our measurements have shown that downloading all the artifacts is
roughly the same speed as downloading the single large zip, but you're
more used to seeing a browser download something and don't feel the need
to monitor its (magic) closely.
> Can't believe, how much you waste my time now.
There's nothing to compel you to sit and watch while the automated
process does its thing.
>
> You set the wrong priority in my opinion:
> 1st) Eclipse must fundamental change its strategy. Customers-like
> comfort for developers? Why?
Just look at the forum and see how many people have trouble unzipping,
and how many people have trouble with launching because there's no good
Java installed.
> A nerd wants to load something, unzipping it and setup the tool of its
> choice on first run - without a wizard, which is doing some magic.
Go for it then. A nerd it usually good at finding the links they need
and doing things they way then want. Most of them anyway... When I
looked at the package page, apparently 18,000 other people did find the
zip they wanted.
> 2nd) stability, compatibility and cooperate design between plugins
> needs to be reviewed and checked before the can be published to the
> eclipse-universe. Plugins with advertising - sorry - ban them.
What might this be referring too? Is this related to the installer in
any way, or you just venting?
>
> Well, it took me 10min (with some breaks, to check the installer
> status) to write this comment and the installer is loading and loading
> and loading. I don't know what it does, but you will loose more and
> more developers, as soon as you don't change those nerving stuff.
Not everyone has such short nerves. I won't bother explaining all the
advantages of using the installer because you won't care and you don't
have to use it if you don't care to use it.
>
> ..oh its finished now! But what the f**** is that. I chose a central
> folder for my eclipse, but why did you install all the shit in my profile?
What's a profile. Perhaps you'll be taken more seriously if you didn't
choose to use fowl language to express your hostility.
> It's on my private computer, but in the company, where the profile is
> loaded via network, ....no, guys, that's it. I'm looking for an
> alternative now! :evil:
> Buy!!!!
You have complete control over where and how everything is installed.
But I won't explain that either. You like the zip file so you can use that.
>
> Kind regards
> a old elcipse fan, which becomes more and more dissatisfied over the
> time. But now it's over!
Re: Installer vs. usability at all [message #1736249 is a reply to message #1735949] Mon, 27 June 2016 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael Eskin is currently offline Michael EskinFriend
Messages: 3
Registered: June 2016
Junior Member
I'm seeing 12+ download times and network failures on the standalone installers for 64-bit and 32-bit Windows Eclipse for Java developers, and extremely long delays and failures on the standalone Neon installer for 64-bit Windows.
Re: Installer vs. usability at all [message #1736505 is a reply to message #1735949] Wed, 29 June 2016 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sven Hofrichter is currently offline Sven HofrichterFriend
Messages: 2
Registered: June 2016
Junior Member
Hi Ed,

thank you for your reply. I hope it's right to send you some additional feedback and answers to your question.

a profile is the special folder, where windows, ios or linux save the user specific things - do you have a different name for it? Eclipse is an IDE and should not install most of it things into that folder. Such a folder is for user specific settings and not for installations, right?

The download link wasn't dominant enough or better said: do you really think "Download Packages" is the correct wording for "alternative downloads" - especially for such a pluggable ide, like eclipse? But okay, it seems to be my fault Wink

Sorry for sitting and waiting until the installation was done, but do you do other things on the same computer, when you especially took time, to test the new release of the IDE?

Sorry for not understanding, why the eclipse-makers/-documentors do not fix the reason for those "many people" who "have trouble unzipping and [...] launching because there's no good Java installed.". This needs to be part of a good INSTALL.txt or (if it exists) a transparent AND structured way to describe the most important really first steps Wink This is NOT a job of a forum or a wiki, this must be part of the installation. But this is my opinion, okay, my fault?

"stability, compatibility and cooperate design between plugins": It can not be, that I get Exceptions at the first start of an fresh installed ide with a blank workspace. Don't know, what kind it was, but .... rrr

"You have complete control over where and how everything is installed." Oh nooooo, not in the installer-version! You can choose an installation folder, that's right, but most of the IDE-plugins were installed into my user-profile and not in the chosen installation folder! Sorry, but you are not right, if you say, you have complete control.

"Not everyone has such short nerves." right, but to see the same unfixed and known bugs/problems of the previous release in the current one is not okay - espacially after a long running installation, that scattered its files all around!
And the 4k-display hack - or however you call the really hidden -Dswt.autoScale-option, to scale the icons? It is especially in those situation an hack, when you see those small icons after you used the installer - oh, sorry, but don't you run into trouble with all the people who do not have a "good Java installed"?
Again: You should try, to get it more simple, if you start to reach all those people, that loads an java-based ide and have trouble unzipping? Sound's like a wrong target group, right?

However, I wanted to give some feedback to eclipse and hope, that it helps a little bit.
Re: Installer vs. usability at all [message #1736574 is a reply to message #1736505] Thu, 30 June 2016 12:06 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 30353
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Sven,

Comments below.


On 29.06.2016 17:38, Sven Hofrichter wrote:
> Hi Ed,
>
> thank you for your reply. I hope it's right to send you some
> additional feedback and answers to your question.
>
> a profile is the special folder, where windows, ios or linux save the
> user specific things - do you have a different name for it?
User home folder. Via Java's system properties it's "user.home".
> Eclipse is an IDE and should not install most of it things into that
> folder. Such a folder is for user specific settings and not for
> installations, right?
If the whole installation is user specific, that seems okay. For
example, if you have a read-only installation created by a system admin,
Eclipse will create a "surrogate" installation in ~/.eclipse/<hash>/.
But in the end you can install things wherever you like, as long as you
have write permissions for that folder.
>
> The download link wasn't dominant enough or better said: do you really
> think "Download Packages" is the correct wording for "alternative
> downloads" - especially for such a pluggable ide, like eclipse? But
> okay, it seems to be my fault ;)
The foundation staff decide how the pages look and ask for feedback from
the community, so you could certainly suggest clearer wording (though
personally I think it's fine).
>
> Sorry for sitting and waiting until the installation was done, but do
> you do other things on the same computer, when you especially took
> time, to test the new release of the IDE?
Yes. I always try to multi-task, but I understand why you might want to
focus on one task and be eager for it to complete quickly. Note that I
often test for a clean user scenario, where the bundle pool is empty so
it's like the uses installing something for the first time. When
servers are functioning reasonably, this takes on the order of 2 minutes
for me. But of course when Neon first releases, there are a great many
users banging the server, and different people have different network
behaviors, and even proxies that slow things down further...
>
> Sorry for not understanding, why the eclipse-makers/-documentors do
> not fix the reason for those "many people" who "have trouble unzipping
> and [...] launching because there's no good Java installed.". This
> needs to be part of a good INSTALL.txt or (if it exists) a transparent
> AND structured way to describe the most important really first steps
> ;) This is NOT a job of a forum or a wiki, this must be part of the
> installation. But this is my opinion, okay, my fault?
Many users simply don't know what to do with a zip file, and find
Windows built-in unzip is crippled. But yes, the launcher is kind of
brain dead too, and should do more to find a good JRE if one exists on
the machine (like Oomph's own native self-extracting exe does).
>
> "stability, compatibility and cooperate design between plugins": It
> can not be, that I get Exceptions at the first start of an fresh
> installed ide with a blank workspace. Don't know, what kind it was,
> but .... rrr
I've tested for that as well:

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=483982

And have tried to make the teams aware of this problem. But awareness
don't actually fix the problems.
>
> "You have complete control over where and how everything is
> installed." Oh nooooo, not in the installer-version! You can choose an
> installation folder, that's right, but most of the IDE-plugins were
> installed into my user-profile and not in the chosen installation
> folder! Sorry, but you are not right, if you say, you have complete
> control.
You also have control over the bundle pool location (from the menu in
the upper right), or even whether a bundle pool is used at all (also
from the menu in the upper right).
>
> "Not everyone has such short nerves." right, but to see the same
> unfixed and known bugs/problems of the previous release in the current
> one is not okay - espacially after a long running installation, that
> scattered its files all around!
Sorry for that, but it's a scatter-shot critique of a whole bunch of
projects. I can't control that, and perhaps there are people working in
the spare time on such projects that have limited time to work on them.
A million users might complain, but if each one contributed a penny
toward fixing the problem, there would be $100,000 to fix it. That's
open source. You get it for free (though using your valuable time to
install and learn it), and you can complain for free. But fixing
problems is costly, and bread on the table doesn't get there for free.
> And the 4k-display hack - or however you call the really hidden
> -Dswt.autoScale-option, to scale the icons?
Yes, I was horrified to see how bad Neon looked only to find I could
avoid it with this option. I added it to my user.setup so I won't have
to see it again. But yes, how is one to learn about this? And it's not
just the icons that look horrible, there are all kinds of repaint
problems in the editor. Of course I've been too busy (lazy?) to report
that problem, so that won't get fixed until I or someone does. Or
maybe if it bothers me enough I'll figure how why it's broken and help
fix it. Doing things yourself is the only way to be sure it gets done.
> It is especially in those situation an hack, when you see those small
> icons after you used the installer - oh, sorry, but don't you run into
> trouble with all the people who do not have a "good Java installed"?
Of course it has nothing to do with the installer....
> Again: You should try, to get it more simple, if you start to reach
> all those people, that loads an java-based ide and have trouble
> unzipping? Sound's like a wrong target group, right?
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the point. What specifically could we
make more simple?
>
> However, I wanted to give some feedback to eclipse and hope, that it
> helps a little bit.
Constructive feedback is always useful, and I understand when one is
frustrated, but it's hard for that not to bubble through.
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