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RAP Support [message #22420] Sun, 08 March 2009 21:41 Go to next message
Hasan Ceylan is currently offline Hasan CeylanFriend
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hello,

I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a lot
of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.

This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
ask anyway...

It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects and
interoperability between the projects will be a must".

What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
Application with the following technologies
* RCP
* RAP
* Databinding
* EMF
* EMF Databinding
* CDO
* Teneo
* Hibernate

The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for both
web and desktop users.

Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next project
to add Riena in list of technologies above?

Regards,
Hasan Ceylan
Re: RAP Support [message #22465 is a reply to message #22420] Mon, 09 March 2009 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Christian Campo is currently offline Christian CampoFriend
Messages: 597
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Hasan,

comments below

Hasan Ceylan schrieb:
> Hello,
>
> I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a lot
> of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.
thanks
>
> This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
> ask anyway...
>
> It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects and
> interoperability between the projects will be a must".
You have read that exact statement where exactly ?
>
> What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
> Application with the following technologies
> * RCP
> * RAP
> * Databinding
> * EMF
> * EMF Databinding
> * CDO
> * Teneo
> * Hibernate
>
> The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for both
> web and desktop users.
>
> Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next project
> to add Riena in list of technologies above?
Of course you should spend some time learning Riena and then add it to list of technologies that you like to use :-).

Riena consists of multiple pieces. So there is not the Riena app but it can be consumed in these pieces. So for example
there is the transparent remote service part which can be used also with RAP of course.

The same is true for the integration of equinox.security for Authentication, Authorization over Remote Services or
Object Transaction if need that kind of thing.

Another component in the UI are Ridgets for highlevel business driven functionality for Widgets that native widgets
alone can not provide like make a field mandatory, make it visually a date field or a number field. Ridgets also ease
the way you do databinding (although its internally built on top of Jface databinding).

That should work with RAP too.

The Navigation concept that we use in Riena is a little easier on endusers and different from the RCP model. Since it
has its own (none-native) widgets it will be a little tougher to use them with RAP since they paint on the graphics
context which is always a little harder for RAP.

We are in constant contact with RAP about this and other topics. We are sure that it is possible to run a Riena
application including the navigation part on top of RAP but that requires some extra work, ressources, funding.

It will come but is not available yet.

Does you help you a little ? Any more questions ? Let me know

christian camp


>
> Regards,
> Hasan Ceylan
Re: RAP Support [message #22640 is a reply to message #22465] Mon, 09 March 2009 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hasan Ceylan is currently offline Hasan CeylanFriend
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hello Christian,

Thanks for the quick response... The answers are indeed of much help and
appreciated!
Answers are in between...
Christian Campo wrote:
> Hi Hasan,
>
> comments below
>
> Hasan Ceylan schrieb:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a
>> lot of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.
> thanks
>>
>> This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
>> ask anyway...
>>
>> It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects
>> and interoperability between the projects will be a must".
> You have read that exact statement where exactly ?
That's from the newsgroup...
http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/rap-dev/msg00241.html
>>
>> What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
>> Application with the following technologies
>> * RCP
>> * RAP
>> * Databinding
>> * EMF
>> * EMF Databinding
>> * CDO
>> * Teneo
>> * Hibernate
>>
>> The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for
>> both web and desktop users.
>>
>> Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next
>> project to add Riena in list of technologies above?
> Of course you should spend some time learning Riena and then add it to
> list of technologies that you like to use :-).
I'm quick learner... :) What I mean by that is, given that RAP is a
requirement, would it make sense to invest in some time to learn and add
riena to the list. But this has been already ansered below.
>
> Riena consists of multiple pieces. So there is not the Riena app but it
> can be consumed in these pieces. So for example there is the transparent
> remote service part which can be used also with RAP of course.
>
> The same is true for the integration of equinox.security for
> Authentication, Authorization over Remote Services or Object Transaction
> if need that kind of thing.
>
> Another component in the UI are Ridgets for highlevel business driven
> functionality for Widgets that native widgets alone can not provide like
> make a field mandatory, make it visually a date field or a number field.
> Ridgets also ease the way you do databinding (although its internally
> built on top of Jface databinding).
>
> That should work with RAP too.
>
> The Navigation concept that we use in Riena is a little easier on
> endusers and different from the RCP model. Since it has its own
> (none-native) widgets it will be a little tougher to use them with RAP
> since they paint on the graphics context which is always a little harder
> for RAP.
>
> We are in constant contact with RAP about this and other topics. We are
> sure that it is possible to run a Riena application including the
> navigation part on top of RAP but that requires some extra work,
> ressources, funding.
>
After writing this email, I have investigated the demos & samples and
the wiki in some more detail. Also being justified by your reply, I had
come to a conclusion that is the same.

I can see the following bits that makes sense:
- The remote services (+security)
- the ridgets (Along with visiblity / mandotary etc features)
- Using the task driven GUI
- Theming

Remote services should be no problem. As pointed out by you, task driven
GUI (Therefore themes) needs some progress. Ridgets are probably the
feature I would like to use right away the most, but I guess I'll have
to wait for that too.
> It will come but is not available yet.
>
> Does you help you a little ? Any more questions ? Let me know
>
> christian camp
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Hasan Ceylan

Keep up the good work. Looking forward to use Riena in the next project
I'l have...

Hasan
Re: RAP Support [message #26417 is a reply to message #22420] Tue, 19 May 2009 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aleksander Bandelj is currently offline Aleksander BandeljFriend
Messages: 98
Registered: July 2009
Member
I am currently working on Riena/RAP and my current approach is to fork
*.ui.swt bundles into *.ui.rap bundles (still connected to CVS, but will
be tiresome to update). Bare basics seem to work after few hours hacking
off PaintListeners, GCs and similar incompatibilites. It would be nice
if all this painting and lnf stuff would be in separate bundle ;)

Longer term, I would structure bundles into *.ui.swt which would only
use SWT API covered by RAP and interfaces for stuff which has different
API, *.ui.rcp for full RCP implementation and *.ui.rap for RAP
implementation.

-a

Hasan Ceylan wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a
> lot of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.
>
> This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
> ask anyway...
>
> It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects
> and interoperability between the projects will be a must".
>
> What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
> Application with the following technologies
> * RCP
> * RAP
> * Databinding
> * EMF
> * EMF Databinding
> * CDO
> * Teneo
> * Hibernate
>
> The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for
> both web and desktop users.
>
> Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next
> project to add Riena in list of technologies above?
>
> Regards,
> Hasan Ceylan
Re: RAP Support [message #26452 is a reply to message #26417] Tue, 19 May 2009 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Christian Campo is currently offline Christian CampoFriend
Messages: 597
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Interesting work you are doing. I did some testing myself to get Riena ridgets to work with RAP. The approach was more
along the lines to get the snippets running with RAP. There are as you wrote things like Paintlisteners sometimes or
KeyListener Events that are missing.

However we are more looking to get support for those tiny bits that are still missing in RAP itself. Once the snippets
for the ridgets work, we will find a better and different way to do the Navigation. I image that can be visualized which
much simpler SWT controls and then CSS in the browser could do the styling.

My intention was to start a wiki page once that Galileo train has reached its destination about the open topics, missing
pieces, issues and then take it from there.

christian

p.s. have you got any work examples, snippets or anything that you can share. would be interested to see how far you got.


Aleksander Bandelj schrieb:
> I am currently working on Riena/RAP and my current approach is to fork
> *.ui.swt bundles into *.ui.rap bundles (still connected to CVS, but will
> be tiresome to update). Bare basics seem to work after few hours hacking
> off PaintListeners, GCs and similar incompatibilites. It would be nice
> if all this painting and lnf stuff would be in separate bundle ;)
>
> Longer term, I would structure bundles into *.ui.swt which would only
> use SWT API covered by RAP and interfaces for stuff which has different
> API, *.ui.rcp for full RCP implementation and *.ui.rap for RAP
> implementation.
>
> -a
>
> Hasan Ceylan wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a
>> lot of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.
>>
>> This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
>> ask anyway...
>>
>> It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects
>> and interoperability between the projects will be a must".
>>
>> What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
>> Application with the following technologies
>> * RCP
>> * RAP
>> * Databinding
>> * EMF
>> * EMF Databinding
>> * CDO
>> * Teneo
>> * Hibernate
>>
>> The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for
>> both web and desktop users.
>>
>> Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next
>> project to add Riena in list of technologies above?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Hasan Ceylan
Re: RAP Support [message #26485 is a reply to message #26452] Wed, 20 May 2009 10:31 Go to previous message
Aleksander Bandelj is currently offline Aleksander BandeljFriend
Messages: 98
Registered: July 2009
Member
RAP has no dummy API policy ie they won't include any API which would be
there just for compilation sake. And getting functional GC into RAP
would be hard work indeed ... So far, I have resisted the urge to hack
dummy GC implementation into my personal RAP checkout, but Riena may be
the breaking point. There are just too many changes to maintain ...

I will definitely share my effort on bugzilla, but be aware that it will
also need a patch to RAP head ;)

-a

Christian Campo wrote:
> Interesting work you are doing. I did some testing myself to get Riena
> ridgets to work with RAP. The approach was more along the lines to get
> the snippets running with RAP. There are as you wrote things like
> Paintlisteners sometimes or KeyListener Events that are missing.
>
> However we are more looking to get support for those tiny bits that
> are still missing in RAP itself. Once the snippets for the ridgets
> work, we will find a better and different way to do the Navigation. I
> image that can be visualized which much simpler SWT controls and then
> CSS in the browser could do the styling.
>
> My intention was to start a wiki page once that Galileo train has
> reached its destination about the open topics, missing pieces, issues
> and then take it from there.
>
> christian
>
> p.s. have you got any work examples, snippets or anything that you can
> share. would be interested to see how far you got.
>
Re: RAP Support [message #581069 is a reply to message #22420] Mon, 09 March 2009 10:36 Go to previous message
Christian Campo is currently offline Christian CampoFriend
Messages: 597
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Hasan,

comments below

Hasan Ceylan schrieb:
> Hello,
>
> I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a lot
> of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.
thanks
>
> This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
> ask anyway...
>
> It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects and
> interoperability between the projects will be a must".
You have read that exact statement where exactly ?
>
> What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
> Application with the following technologies
> * RCP
> * RAP
> * Databinding
> * EMF
> * EMF Databinding
> * CDO
> * Teneo
> * Hibernate
>
> The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for both
> web and desktop users.
>
> Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next project
> to add Riena in list of technologies above?
Of course you should spend some time learning Riena and then add it to list of technologies that you like to use :-).

Riena consists of multiple pieces. So there is not the Riena app but it can be consumed in these pieces. So for example
there is the transparent remote service part which can be used also with RAP of course.

The same is true for the integration of equinox.security for Authentication, Authorization over Remote Services or
Object Transaction if need that kind of thing.

Another component in the UI are Ridgets for highlevel business driven functionality for Widgets that native widgets
alone can not provide like make a field mandatory, make it visually a date field or a number field. Ridgets also ease
the way you do databinding (although its internally built on top of Jface databinding).

That should work with RAP too.

The Navigation concept that we use in Riena is a little easier on endusers and different from the RCP model. Since it
has its own (none-native) widgets it will be a little tougher to use them with RAP since they paint on the graphics
context which is always a little harder for RAP.

We are in constant contact with RAP about this and other topics. We are sure that it is possible to run a Riena
application including the navigation part on top of RAP but that requires some extra work, ressources, funding.

It will come but is not available yet.

Does you help you a little ? Any more questions ? Let me know

christian camp


>
> Regards,
> Hasan Ceylan
Re: RAP Support [message #581133 is a reply to message #22465] Mon, 09 March 2009 15:56 Go to previous message
Hasan Ceylan is currently offline Hasan CeylanFriend
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hello Christian,

Thanks for the quick response... The answers are indeed of much help and
appreciated!
Answers are in between...
Christian Campo wrote:
> Hi Hasan,
>
> comments below
>
> Hasan Ceylan schrieb:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a
>> lot of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.
> thanks
>>
>> This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
>> ask anyway...
>>
>> It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects
>> and interoperability between the projects will be a must".
> You have read that exact statement where exactly ?
That's from the newsgroup...
http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/rap-dev/msg00241.html
>>
>> What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
>> Application with the following technologies
>> * RCP
>> * RAP
>> * Databinding
>> * EMF
>> * EMF Databinding
>> * CDO
>> * Teneo
>> * Hibernate
>>
>> The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for
>> both web and desktop users.
>>
>> Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next
>> project to add Riena in list of technologies above?
> Of course you should spend some time learning Riena and then add it to
> list of technologies that you like to use :-).
I'm quick learner... :) What I mean by that is, given that RAP is a
requirement, would it make sense to invest in some time to learn and add
riena to the list. But this has been already ansered below.
>
> Riena consists of multiple pieces. So there is not the Riena app but it
> can be consumed in these pieces. So for example there is the transparent
> remote service part which can be used also with RAP of course.
>
> The same is true for the integration of equinox.security for
> Authentication, Authorization over Remote Services or Object Transaction
> if need that kind of thing.
>
> Another component in the UI are Ridgets for highlevel business driven
> functionality for Widgets that native widgets alone can not provide like
> make a field mandatory, make it visually a date field or a number field.
> Ridgets also ease the way you do databinding (although its internally
> built on top of Jface databinding).
>
> That should work with RAP too.
>
> The Navigation concept that we use in Riena is a little easier on
> endusers and different from the RCP model. Since it has its own
> (none-native) widgets it will be a little tougher to use them with RAP
> since they paint on the graphics context which is always a little harder
> for RAP.
>
> We are in constant contact with RAP about this and other topics. We are
> sure that it is possible to run a Riena application including the
> navigation part on top of RAP but that requires some extra work,
> ressources, funding.
>
After writing this email, I have investigated the demos & samples and
the wiki in some more detail. Also being justified by your reply, I had
come to a conclusion that is the same.

I can see the following bits that makes sense:
- The remote services (+security)
- the ridgets (Along with visiblity / mandotary etc features)
- Using the task driven GUI
- Theming

Remote services should be no problem. As pointed out by you, task driven
GUI (Therefore themes) needs some progress. Ridgets are probably the
feature I would like to use right away the most, but I guess I'll have
to wait for that too.
> It will come but is not available yet.
>
> Does you help you a little ? Any more questions ? Let me know
>
> christian camp
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Hasan Ceylan

Keep up the good work. Looking forward to use Riena in the next project
I'l have...

Hasan
Re: RAP Support [message #582643 is a reply to message #22420] Tue, 19 May 2009 17:43 Go to previous message
Aleksander Bandelj is currently offline Aleksander BandeljFriend
Messages: 98
Registered: July 2009
Member
I am currently working on Riena/RAP and my current approach is to fork
*.ui.swt bundles into *.ui.rap bundles (still connected to CVS, but will
be tiresome to update). Bare basics seem to work after few hours hacking
off PaintListeners, GCs and similar incompatibilites. It would be nice
if all this painting and lnf stuff would be in separate bundle ;)

Longer term, I would structure bundles into *.ui.swt which would only
use SWT API covered by RAP and interfaces for stuff which has different
API, *.ui.rcp for full RCP implementation and *.ui.rap for RAP
implementation.

-a

Hasan Ceylan wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a
> lot of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.
>
> This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
> ask anyway...
>
> It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects
> and interoperability between the projects will be a must".
>
> What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
> Application with the following technologies
> * RCP
> * RAP
> * Databinding
> * EMF
> * EMF Databinding
> * CDO
> * Teneo
> * Hibernate
>
> The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for
> both web and desktop users.
>
> Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next
> project to add Riena in list of technologies above?
>
> Regards,
> Hasan Ceylan
Re: RAP Support [message #582655 is a reply to message #26417] Tue, 19 May 2009 20:50 Go to previous message
Christian Campo is currently offline Christian CampoFriend
Messages: 597
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Interesting work you are doing. I did some testing myself to get Riena ridgets to work with RAP. The approach was more
along the lines to get the snippets running with RAP. There are as you wrote things like Paintlisteners sometimes or
KeyListener Events that are missing.

However we are more looking to get support for those tiny bits that are still missing in RAP itself. Once the snippets
for the ridgets work, we will find a better and different way to do the Navigation. I image that can be visualized which
much simpler SWT controls and then CSS in the browser could do the styling.

My intention was to start a wiki page once that Galileo train has reached its destination about the open topics, missing
pieces, issues and then take it from there.

christian

p.s. have you got any work examples, snippets or anything that you can share. would be interested to see how far you got.


Aleksander Bandelj schrieb:
> I am currently working on Riena/RAP and my current approach is to fork
> *.ui.swt bundles into *.ui.rap bundles (still connected to CVS, but will
> be tiresome to update). Bare basics seem to work after few hours hacking
> off PaintListeners, GCs and similar incompatibilites. It would be nice
> if all this painting and lnf stuff would be in separate bundle ;)
>
> Longer term, I would structure bundles into *.ui.swt which would only
> use SWT API covered by RAP and interfaces for stuff which has different
> API, *.ui.rcp for full RCP implementation and *.ui.rap for RAP
> implementation.
>
> -a
>
> Hasan Ceylan wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have just started to browse the riena project and I think I see a
>> lot of future use of the functionalities. Good work, congrats.
>>
>> This must be somewhere that might have been asked or written but I'll
>> ask anyway...
>>
>> It has been said that the "RAP and Riena are to become top projects
>> and interoperability between the projects will be a must".
>>
>> What is the status of this statement. We are developing an RCP
>> Application with the following technologies
>> * RCP
>> * RAP
>> * Databinding
>> * EMF
>> * EMF Databinding
>> * CDO
>> * Teneo
>> * Hibernate
>>
>> The main objective is to provide a SOA datacentric application for
>> both web and desktop users.
>>
>> Should I spend sometime learing riena or do I need for the next
>> project to add Riena in list of technologies above?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Hasan Ceylan
Re: RAP Support [message #582671 is a reply to message #26452] Wed, 20 May 2009 10:31 Go to previous message
Aleksander Bandelj is currently offline Aleksander BandeljFriend
Messages: 98
Registered: July 2009
Member
RAP has no dummy API policy ie they won't include any API which would be
there just for compilation sake. And getting functional GC into RAP
would be hard work indeed ... So far, I have resisted the urge to hack
dummy GC implementation into my personal RAP checkout, but Riena may be
the breaking point. There are just too many changes to maintain ...

I will definitely share my effort on bugzilla, but be aware that it will
also need a patch to RAP head ;)

-a

Christian Campo wrote:
> Interesting work you are doing. I did some testing myself to get Riena
> ridgets to work with RAP. The approach was more along the lines to get
> the snippets running with RAP. There are as you wrote things like
> Paintlisteners sometimes or KeyListener Events that are missing.
>
> However we are more looking to get support for those tiny bits that
> are still missing in RAP itself. Once the snippets for the ridgets
> work, we will find a better and different way to do the Navigation. I
> image that can be visualized which much simpler SWT controls and then
> CSS in the browser could do the styling.
>
> My intention was to start a wiki page once that Galileo train has
> reached its destination about the open topics, missing pieces, issues
> and then take it from there.
>
> christian
>
> p.s. have you got any work examples, snippets or anything that you can
> share. would be interested to see how far you got.
>
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