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GIS comes to AMP.. [message #552883]

Sat, 14 August 2010 01:27

Miles Parker

Messages: 1341
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

Hi all,

I'm engaged in *very* early work building AMP Escape integrated GIS tools. Because of licensing issues for dependent libraries, I'm not sure when/if this might show up in AMP proper, but I wanted to throw it out there for those with an interest in GIS and who would want to try out some early alpha tools in the next little while.

cheers,

Miles

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #553448 is a reply to message #552883]

Tue, 17 August 2010 14:50

Manuel Suarez

Messages: 1
Registered: July 2010

Junior Member

Miles, I'd be happy to take a look.

-Manuel

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #558409 is a reply to message #552883]

Sun, 12 September 2010 14:34

Werner Keil

Messages: 1087
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

Hi,

I looked at the Gama Platform
<http://code.google.com/p/gama-platform/wiki/Xtext>, suggested in a nearby
thread.

Turns out, they have internal but very insufficient (simply int, long or
double conversion factors ;-) Measurement support via a class called Units.
And then there's another Units class, GAMA uses from GeoAPI, including an
older (unofficial) version of JSR-275, the precursor to Unit-API.

GeoAPI has recently migrated, and is in the process to use Unit-API 0.6 and
above, the latest release, also used by the current UOMo draft.

Werner

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #558416 is a reply to message #558409]

Sun, 12 September 2010 16:09

Miles Parker

Messages: 1341
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

Thans for all of the info Werner..

Werner Keil wrote on Sun, 12 September 2010 10:34

Turns out, they have internal but very insufficient (simply int, long or
double conversion factors Wink

Measurement support via a class called Units.

Yes that sounds like a confusion between units of measure and machine representation. In any case I want to stay away from machine dependent specifications -- this seems to be conflating the idea of

Right now we only have a text field so that is obviously weak. Smile

But I wanted to leave it open for a good implementation. There are other threads around here and on amp-dev that people can look at WRT to Units of Measurement issues.

But we also need to have more generic representations for polygons, etc.. Currently there is a bit of that in the LoadAgentShape action but that's not really the place for it.

Quote:

And then there's another Units class, GAMA uses from GeoAPI, including an
older (unofficial) version of JSR-275, the precursor to Unit-API. GeoAPI has recently migrated, and is in the process to use Unit-API 0.6 and
above, the latest release, also used by the current UOMo draft

For implementation, I've been playing with GeoTools / uDIg and with a bunch of hacking that is working as a basic proof of concept. There are a lot of tools there potentially and uDig has an ecore representation, but it is mixed in with a lot of presentation and application stuff.

The GeoTools stuff has a another significant issue in that it is all based on SLD, which I find very fiddly and difficult to maintain. The basic idea is very sound though and perhaps there is something that could be adapted from that on the presentation side to enrich the AMF styles representation which right now is purposely very basic so that we can enrich it when the best approach is decided upon.

So my take is that the Runtime implementation (like Escape, etc..) stuff could be based on some of those APIs but any Meta-model (AMF) level stuff needs to go to the best standard possible and ignore any specific implementations. So I'd really appreciate any additional insight on both the implementation and Meta-Model. Especially, if there is a geo representation either in a) API form, XSD, or ideally an OMG M2 (?) spec with ecore semantics and that b) seems to likely to be the eventual winner for generic representations.

thanks again,

Miles

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #558896 is a reply to message #552883]

Tue, 14 September 2010 19:16

Tony Kennedy

Messages: 17
Registered: June 2010

Junior Member

Hi Miles

I haven't been following the GIS thread very closely but if you want techniques for integrating GIS standards with EMF then this doc outlines the bases of the techniques we are currently (loosely) following: MODEL-DRIVEN ENGINEERING FOR IMPLEMENTING THE ISO 19100 SERIES OF INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS CYRIL FAUCHER1 & JEAN-YVES LAFAYE2

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #559138 is a reply to message #558896]

Wed, 15 September 2010 17:53

Miles Parker

Messages: 1341
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

Tony Kennedy wrote on Tue, 14 September 2010 15:16

..for integrating GIS standards with EMF then this doc outlines the bases of the techniques we are currently (loosely) following: MODEL-DRIVEN ENGINEERING FOR IMPLEMENTING THE ISO 19100 SERIES OF INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS CYRIL FAUCHER1 & JEAN-YVES LAFAYE2

Yikes. Anytime I see the three letters "ISO" I start running away. ;D This isn't near the level of sophistication that I'm targeting at this stage, but I hope that someone will look at integrating it.

I'm assuming that you've investigated uDig..?

thanks as always,

Miles

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #559161 is a reply to message #559138]

Wed, 15 September 2010 19:34

Tony Kennedy

Messages: 17
Registered: June 2010

Junior Member

Yes

Or at least my predecessor did same name so you should see some of his comments on the mail list.

It offers a good GIS base and provides a good standards based platform. but NOT for an ABM platform though the standards are essential for integration with other tools the are insufficient for an ABM platform.

It also gives a good base for the development of the required Map algebra's , Generalized Proximity Matrices etc. but leaves a lot of work to do some of which has been done for uDig, if you want to follow that path, but they were far more interested in the Internet side of things; for an explanation of a system designed for ABM see http://www.terrame.org and its various components in particular its Eclipse tooling and its DSL's which I will refer too in another thread, we currently use Terrame and have a crude connector to AMP. Other modeling GIS systems you may like to look at are:

HydroSig
http://cancerbero.unalmed.edu.co/~hidrosig/ingles/index.php
Kalypso
http://kalypso.bjoernsen.de/index.php?id=1&L=1

also the site
http://52north.org/ often has some interesting links

The work mention has been implemented partially by one of the postgrads more in another thread

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #559190 is a reply to message #559161]

Wed, 15 September 2010 21:35

Miles Parker

Messages: 1341
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

Wow, I am constantly amazed at what people have done out there with various tools.

I've done quite a bit of work getting uDig up to speed with integration into Eclipse as a real plugin as opposed to an IDE. Wasn't easy but it is possible to pull things out. As you say, they've focussed a lot on the data side, especially web. Look forward to seeing your other post.

Tony Kennedy wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 15:34

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #559411 is a reply to message #559190]

Thu, 16 September 2010 14:46

Tony Kennedy

Messages: 17
Registered: June 2010

Junior Member

If you like I can come up with a wish / requirements list for a ABM GIS environment that would satisfy the chattering masses sometimes known as users together with the modelling domain they occupy

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #559435 is a reply to message #559411]

Thu, 16 September 2010 15:27

Miles Parker

Messages: 1341
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

Tony Kennedy wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 10:46

If you like I can come up with a wish / requirements list for a ABM GIS environment that would satisfy the chattering masses sometimes known as users together with the modelling domain they occupy

I think that that would be really useful. While we can and might do a quick and dirty, this is the kind of thing that it definitely worth doing right the first time. My hope as you've also articulated is that most of the functionality can be leveraged from/through third-party efforts whenever useful. To complicate that, we would want presentation to be identical whenever possible with presentation with other other representation, behavior and visualization components. That is, I think one of the real strengths of AMP and its predecessors is to change spatial implementation by simply swapping out the space. In some cases, this might even mean making decisions about how to enhance Acore styles based on approaches from GIS that work well for other spatial types.

cheers!

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Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #559465 is a reply to message #558416]

Thu, 16 September 2010 17:51

Werner Keil

Messages: 1087
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

amp-dev at Eclipse.org I suppose?

I am not using those mailing lists here yet, but projects like STEM also
refer to them more often, so I may add a few more to my extensive list (at
Google Groups, Java.net, SF.net etc. ;-)

Werner

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Where to discuss.. Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #559467 is a reply to message #559465]

Thu, 16 September 2010 18:07

Miles Parker

Messages: 1341
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

Werner Keil wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 13:51

See: http://eclipse.org/amp/documentation/contents/Support.html#I ssues

I'm actually finding that all of this is a pretty gray distinction. Here is my present thinking:

a) This is a good spot to discuss general improvements, requests for feedback, etc.. ideas, etc.. which is what we've been doing so far. Heuristic: it might be of interest to the broader community.

b) AMP-DEV is the right place to get into the nitty-gritty of how we would actually implement such a thing. For example, what are strengths and weaknesses of various implementations, why the hell isn't the build working, who is working on what, etc. Heuristic: broader community would be bored to tears.

c) Bugzilla is the right place to discuss specific implementations that we really intend to do. This is when we need to keep track of this in a disciplined way so that a consistent record of decisions are made. Heuristic: broader community cares about wether we are actually doing something about an issue.

differing interpretations are of course welcome..

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Re: Where to discuss.. Re: GIS comes to AMP.. [message #559472 is a reply to message #559467]

Thu, 16 September 2010 18:12

Miles Parker

Messages: 1341
Registered: July 2009

Senior Member

Miles Parker wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 14:07

b) AMP-DEV is the right place to get into the nitty-gritty of how we would actually implement such a thing. For example, what are strengths and weaknesses of various implementations..

And yeah, that's entirely inconsistent with what we've been doing with this thread, which simply proves that all rules are destined to fail at some point.. Wink

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