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Overriding channel labels [message #1702084] Sun, 19 July 2015 09:50 Go to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
Messages: 256
Registered: December 2013
Senior Member
Currently, if I have a device with two switches, I need to add the following into the XML -:
	<thing-type id="">
		<channels>
			<channel id="switch-1" typeId="switch-1">
			</channel>
			<channel id="switch-2" typeId="switch-2">
			</channel>
		</channels>

	</thing-type>

	<channel-type id="switch-1">
		<item-type>Switch</item-type>
		<label>Switch 1</label>
		<description>Switch the light on and off</description>
		<category>Light</category>
	</channel-type>
	<channel-type id="switch-2">
		<item-type>Switch</item-type>
		<label>Switch 2</label>
		<description>Switch the light on and off</description>
		<category>Light</category>
	</channel-type>


I think it makes more sense to allow the label (and description) to be overriden in the channel definition, which would allow a single channelType definition -:
	<thing-type id="">
		<channels>
			<channel id="switch-1" typeId="switch">
				<label>Switch 1</label>
			</channel>
			<channel id="switch-2" typeId="switch">
				<label>Switch 2</label>
			</channel>
		</channels>

	</thing-type>

	<channel-type id="switch">
		<description>Switch the light on and off</description>
		<item-type>Switch</item-type>
		<category>Light</category>
	</channel-type>


A default could be provided in the channel-type, but should be overridden in the channel definition. This allows channel-types to be properly re-used rather than duplicated which is currently the case.

This example is a simple case. I have some devices in zwave with up to 6 meterable switches, so I'll have something like 24 channel types where I could have 4.

Has any thought been given to this? If I looked to add label and description to the channel definition, would it be accepted?

Chris
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702159 is a reply to message #1702084] Mon, 20 July 2015 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Hi Chris,

hm, it seems you have missed this comment that I did last week: https://www.eclipse.org/forums/index.php?t=msg&th=1065857&goto=1701766&#msg_1701766
The last part of it sounds pretty much the same like what you are requesting here, right?

Regards,
Kai
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702177 is a reply to message #1702159] Mon, 20 July 2015 13:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
Messages: 256
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Hi Kai,
Yes - I missed this Smile But you're right - we say the same thing here...

Is this something you have already started?

Cheers
Chris
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702178 is a reply to message #1702177] Mon, 20 July 2015 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Quote:
Is this something you have already started?


No, it is something I waited for your feedback and then wanted to ask you if you want to implement it Smile
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702190 is a reply to message #1702178] Mon, 20 July 2015 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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Kai Kreuzer wrote on Mon, 20 July 2015 14:41
and then wanted to ask you if you want to implement it Smile


Ok - I'll wait for you to ask Smile

I did start to look at this over the weekend - it is a little more complex than I'd hoped due to the combining of the things and thingTypes and the number of classes in between, but I don't think it is too much of an issue... If you're happy, I'll take a look over the next week or two as I'd like to see this in the zwave binding before I start to add too many thing definitions...

Chris
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702192 is a reply to message #1702190] Mon, 20 July 2015 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Yes, it would be great if you could start looking into this. I am just wondering if my other proposal about a ChannelTypeRegistry can have any impact on the implementation of the Channel labels as well - maybe this work needs to be synchronized? Probably Dennis would be quickest one to implement the new Registry as he has done quite some before - but in case you want to go for it, this is definitely negotiable Wink
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702679 is a reply to message #1702192] Fri, 24 July 2015 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
Messages: 256
Registered: December 2013
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This is mostly done, but there's an issue with the way channel enable/disable is implemented (I think I've raised this before but can't find the reference now).

When you enable / disable a channel, what you're really doing is adding and removing items. To me, this doesn't seem the right thing to do - it means that sitemaps will get messed up when I disable a channel. I think the channel should remain until things are deleted (or the item is explicitly deleted) and the channel should be marked as disabled...

The reason I raise this again here is that it causes a problem with the implementation of the labels. When creating a thing, and it's channels and items, we have access to the channelType and the channel. However, when enabling/disabling a channel through the REST interface, that's not the case. So, I've implemented the label override, and it works when you create a thing - the information in the GUI for both label and description is correct. However, it's not possible to make this work if you re-enable a channel.

I would like to propose that channels should have a flag to say they are disabled, and items should remain.

Cheers
Chris
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702799 is a reply to message #1702679] Fri, 24 July 2015 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gael lhopital is currently offline gael lhopitalFriend
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In the line of this subject (well, I think so) - how should I manage the following case :

My chanel-type "temperature" holds an attribute pattern="Indoor temp [%.1f °C"]

In the binding, it is likely that the user has opportunity to have switched to american unit system, then the value will be expressed in °F, how to change the chanel-type associated with the chanel ?

[Updated on: Fri, 24 July 2015 16:58]

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Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702901 is a reply to message #1702799] Mon, 27 July 2015 10:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Quote:
what you're really doing is adding and removing items. To me, this doesn't seem the right thing to do - it means that sitemaps will get messed up when I disable a channel.


I agree. Creation of items is a "quick win" feature for easy setup, but editing Things should not mess around with existing items.

Quote:
I would like to propose that channels should have a flag to say they are disabled, and items should remain.


I don't think we need a flag - the "sign" whether a channel is enabled or not is actually the link to an item. So disabling a channel simply means removing the link. Additionally, what should be done is to remove the item from the "thing" group item, so that this group reflects the right set of channels. But the item should not be deleted automatically (or rather only optional through a config admin property, if a solution always wants to delete items automatically).

Quote:
My chanel-type "temperature" holds an attribute pattern="Indoor temp [%.1f °C"]


From this, only "Indoor temp" is the label, the rest is the state description, which should not be transferred to the label at all, right?

Quote:
how to change the chanel-type associated with the chanel ?


With the introduction of the ChannelTypeRegistry, the channels will refer to a channel type and thus it should be possible to change the type (my guess without looking deeper into it right now).

Regards,
Kai
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702903 is a reply to message #1702901] Mon, 27 July 2015 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
Messages: 256
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Quote:

I don't think we need a flag - the "sign" whether a channel is enabled or not is actually the link to an item.


Good point - and even easier to implement (now we just need that new link event you keep mentioning Wink )
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702905 is a reply to message #1702903] Mon, 27 July 2015 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Maybe you want to directly add it within your PR? Would be a good test on how easy extensible the eventing infrastructure is (which was one of its requirements) Smile
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1702979 is a reply to message #1702905] Mon, 27 July 2015 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
Messages: 256
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I'm happy to have a look at it - probably as a separate PR though to keep it clean.

However, I think it needs a bit more thought. I agree that removing the link between channels and items will fix the problem, but, it raises another issue - how to reinstate the links when the channel is re-enabled. If there was only ever 1 item associated with a channel, then the answer is simple as the name is directly derived from the channel (if I remember correctly), but as the system supports multiple items for each channel, in which case, once the link if broken, there's no way to reinstate it...

The easy answer is not to support multiple items for a channel. I think this was the original implementation, but I recall reading a post to say that this was changed... I'm not sure I completely understand why you'd want multiple items for a channel, but I'm sure someone has a reason that I've not thought of yet Smile
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1703055 is a reply to message #1702979] Tue, 28 July 2015 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Let me try to explain this with a wider view: My vision for advanced (i.e. current openHAB 1) users is to have an editor which lists things with its channels left and items right and allows to easily drag channels onto items, which creates a link between them, meaning that the item is "fed" through this channel (in openHAB 1 speak: There is a binding config like { channel="" } added to the item). Deleting these links is then the same as disabling a channel (for a certain item).

Now the current implementation of the ThingSetupManager was heavily influenced by the short-term needs of the Paper UI at that time. As the Paper UI has no way to edit items and no way to administrate the links between channels and items, it simply creates the items+links automatically through the ThingSetupManager. I do not consider this to be the "best practice", but it makes sense to provide an easy start for beginners (as they do not have to know at all about items and links). So the enable/disable functionality in the ThingSetupManager assumes a fixed (the derived) item name for the link. If this item does not yet exist, it will create it, otherwise only the link is created.

To answer why you can link multiple items to a channel: Allowing just one quickly came up as an issue, because the one linked item was always the one created by the SetupManager. If you know wanted to define your own items in an item file and you added { channel="xyz" } to it, this item never received events, because it was the second item linked to the channel, which was not supported. And since in openHAB 1 you can also have the same binding configuration on multiple items, the same is done here.

I hope this explains it and it makes sense to you!
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1703067 is a reply to message #1703055] Tue, 28 July 2015 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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Kai Kreuzer wrote on Tue, 28 July 2015 12:26
Let me try to explain this with a wider view: My vision for advanced (i.e. current openHAB 1) users is to have an editor which lists things with its channels left and items right and allows to easily drag channels onto items, which creates a link between them

That's fair.... For current OH1 users, this sort of thing would seem fine... But...

What about people who really don't wanna bother with all that complex linking stuff - it's all just a bit too much hard work sometimes Smile

How about the following use case -:
I have a channel, which is linked to a couple of items. This channel has become unreliable, so I decide to disable it. Once I've fixed the sensor, I want to re-enable it... Now I've got to remind myself what all the items were that were linked to the channel. If I have a few hundred items, then it's a little messy at best. If we've unlinked the channels and the items, there's no automatic way to get this link back (short of storing it somewhere else). It just seems that I've made a lot of work for something that seems like it ought to be simple (ie enable/disable a channel for a short period of time).

I could set up some sort of 'removed link store' in HABmin to allow recreating the links between the items and but I kind of thing the framework should do this? Based on the above use case, which I think should be quite common (??) I would think a simple 'channel enabled' flag might still be worth considering? Or (and you'll probably have this more Smile) adding a link enabled flag into the link?

We could say that for a simple, user oriented system, that we only support a single channel-item link, then the problem goes away. I just fear that since the system doesn't limit this, that some time soon someone will come up with a really good use case for multiple items, and then this single item concept will not be possible...

What do you think? I'm really coming at this from the simplistic perspective - ie trying to make this presentable to someone who doesn't care about links, barely cares about channels, items, things and widgets, but just wants to make the lights come on reliably (eg my girlfriend!) Smile
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1703073 is a reply to message #1703067] Tue, 28 July 2015 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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I think when you are talking about "activating/deactivating" a channel, you have something different in mind then I have. As I said, there really is NO concept of an enabled/disabled channel. This wording was only introduced by the Paper UI and has been adopted in the ThingSetupManager (which is also rather a supportive service for the Paper UI than a core part of the framework). What it really does is "link-a-default-item" and "unlink-the-default-item". In this sense, the disabling clearly only refers to the default item and not to all linked items.

Telling a channel to keep quiet ALTHOUGH it is linked to items is a completely different requirement to me and one that I didn't come across yet. Do you really see a need for this?

Wrt the simple view (your girlfriend): These people will be fine with the default items and will never have any other items and links to the same channel, so there is no problem. But this won't be enough for advanced users and especially, it would be very much incompatible to openHAB 1 and thus hinder the users to migrate.
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1703074 is a reply to message #1703073] Tue, 28 July 2015 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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Kai Kreuzer wrote on Tue, 28 July 2015 14:01

Telling a channel to keep quiet ALTHOUGH it is linked to items is a completely different requirement to me and one that I didn't come across yet. Do you really see a need for this?

I would think that either at the channel, or thing level that there should be a way to temporarily disable the data stream without having to delete things/channels/items. Maybe the channel isn't the best place to do it, but I had thought that this is what enable/disable was there for.

Is there already a way to take a thing offline (ie for the user to force it to be offline)? If so, this would be a possible way to do this.

Kai Kreuzer wrote on Tue, 28 July 2015 14:01

Wrt the simple view (your girlfriend): These people will be fine with the default items and will never have any other items and links to the same channel, so there is no problem. But this won't be enough for advanced users and especially, it would be very much incompatible to openHAB 1 and thus hinder the users to migrate.

Yes - you're probably right, but as I said earlier, when some bright spark comes up with a really cool use case for having multiple items linked to a channel, if we make the assumption that this isn't possible for 'simple users' (who I suspect should make up a large user base - not just my girlfriend Smile) then we are in trouble. Maybe we deal with that situation if/when it occurs?

Chris
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1703092 is a reply to message #1703074] Tue, 28 July 2015 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Quote:
a really cool use case for having multiple items linked to a channel


We will have them, but somewhere we have to draw the line between simplicity for beginners and flexibility for experts. So yes, for now, I would say this line is just there where you want to link more than one item (and with this, shift the focus from managing things to managing items).
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1703104 is a reply to message #1703092] Tue, 28 July 2015 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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Quote:

So yes, for now, I would say this line is just there where you want to link more than one item


Ok - that's fine. Thanks.

You didn't comment on the question "Is there already a way to take a thing offline (ie for the user to force it to be offline)?"

Also, just FYI, this is what I have in HABmin2 for thing channel configuration. Currently I don't have the ability to add new items (although it's just a case of hooking something up to the Add button), but you can edit the item etc from here and it allows multiple items within the code...

The green 'tick' at the end of the channel name is the enable/disable, but now that I have a better idea of what this is really for, I think I'll remove it as the same functionality exists with the add/delete item...

https://github.com/cdjackson/HABmin2/wiki/screenshots/thing-channel-list.png



Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1703123 is a reply to message #1703104] Tue, 28 July 2015 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Quote:
You didn't comment on the question "Is there already a way to take a thing offline (ie for the user to force it to be offline)?"


I am afraid the only options to do this is to either stop the bundle of the binding or to pull the plug from the device... So no, there is no way for the user to take a thing offline.

Quote:
the same functionality exists with the add/delete item...


which is actually adding/removing links, right?

I am myself not yet fully clear on how a UI could optimally look like, which can be used for easy and advanced use cases likewise. I don't want to give up on the item concept and make it invisible, because it really is the functional model of the whole system - and the items are the main thing that people administrate when they use textual configuration (which again is only for advanced users, but then so much more powerful than any UI...)
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1703245 is a reply to message #1703123] Wed, 29 July 2015 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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Quote:

which is actually adding/removing links, right?

Yes - along with creating new items if you want...

Quote:

I am myself not yet fully clear on how a UI could optimally look like

Me neither. The image above is what I came up with a while back based on my then understanding... I'll likely update it (at some stage) now that my understanding has also been "updated", but I suspect there will be other iterations to come. I like your 'drag n drop' link idea, so might also look at adding something that allows such a direct 'item to channel' link at this point and then see how it looks from there...

I'm sure (or hope!) that once a few more people start using the different interfaces that it might become a bit clearer... We'll see Smile

Anyway - your update of ESH flowed through quickly to OH2 this time, so the PR relating to this thread is now working well in OH2 Smile Thanks.
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1704240 is a reply to message #1703245] Sun, 09 August 2015 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Smart Home is currently offline Smart HomeFriend
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Hi,

I need the option to change also the category not just the label and description. Was it consider before?

I have defined a general channel which can be used in two different categories. If I understand correctly I need to define two different channel types. Am I right? If so, can you consider adding category to the same level as label and description?

Thx
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1704243 is a reply to message #1704240] Sun, 09 August 2015 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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As a matter of interest, what is your use case?

When I wrote the code to over-ride channel data, overriding the fundamentals of the channel-type wasn't what I was thinking. The idea was more to make use of an existing channel definition in a more flexible way - reusing the same channel-type, but just allowing it to be used in multiple places. Given that a channel-type is made up of only a few elements (label, description, item, category and state-description), and given that category is linked to item (ie only certain item types are allowed in each category) you're nearly at the point of completely redefining the channel?

I think Kai has been talking about dynamic channels - maybe that's what you're looking for?

Cheers
Chris
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1704249 is a reply to message #1704243] Sun, 09 August 2015 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Smart Home is currently offline Smart HomeFriend
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Hi Chris,

Thx for your reply.

Lets assume I have two sensors. 1 for temperature and 1 for humidity. Both send a number. Their configuration is the same, e.g., you can define the delay sampling rate. Currently I have to define two channels. If I can change the category I can define only one.

Of course the trivial solution will be to define two different channel types but if the configuration has more elements I don't see a reason to duplicate it.

Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1704252 is a reply to message #1704249] Sun, 09 August 2015 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Channels of the same type should also be semantically the same. A temperature and a humidity value should definitely be done as two separate channel types.
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1710936 is a reply to message #1702084] Sun, 11 October 2015 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rathgeb is currently offline Markus RathgebFriend
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To point to the first topic of this thread, what is the current solution for using a device / thing with multiple switches?

What is the use case for set a thing offline if the device is online or to disable a channel / link to an item?
IMHO if we are using items in rules, the only use case I see is to disable an item, so it does not handle any received event.
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1711024 is a reply to message #1710936] Mon, 12 October 2015 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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Quote:
To point to the first topic of this thread, what is the current solution for using a device / thing with multiple switches?

It is
		<channels>
			<channel id="switch-1" typeId="switch">
				<label>Switch 1</label>
			</channel>
			<channel id="switch-2" typeId="switch">
				<label>Switch 2</label>
			</channel>
		</channels>


Quote:
What is the use case for set a thing offline if the device is online or to disable a channel / link to an item?


Sorry, I do not get your question...?
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1711033 is a reply to message #1703074] Mon, 12 October 2015 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rathgeb is currently offline Markus RathgebFriend
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Chris Jackson wrote on Tue, 28 July 2015 13:26

I would think that either at the channel, or thing level that there should be a way to temporarily disable the data stream without having to delete things/channels/items. Maybe the channel isn't the best place to do it, but I had thought that this is what enable/disable was there for.

Is there already a way to take a thing offline (ie for the user to force it to be offline)? If so, this would be a possible way to do this.


What is the use case for set a thing offline, if the device is online?
What is the use case to remove a channel-item link temporarily?
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1711041 is a reply to message #1711033] Mon, 12 October 2015 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kai Kreuzer is currently offline Kai KreuzerFriend
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ok, that's a question to Chris then Smile
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1711045 is a reply to message #1711041] Mon, 12 October 2015 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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My particular use case is when a device/thing/channel starts 'playing up'. I've had sensors that start providing invalid readings - it may be because the battery is getting low, or it may be because of some other reason (failed sensor). In this case, the device is still (technically) online as it's responding, but it's not really working properly.

There may also be other reasons to disable something for a period of time (maybe you just want to disable a switch for some reason to stop it being used?). In such instances, it seems a little drastic to have to remove the item. Removing the link is (just about) manageable, but (MHO) not the nicest way to perform the function...
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1711046 is a reply to message #1711041] Mon, 12 October 2015 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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My particular use case is when a device/thing/channel starts 'playing up'. I've had sensors that start providing invalid readings - it may be because the battery is getting low, or it may be because of some other reason (failed sensor). In this case, the device is still (technically) online as it's responding, but it's not really working properly.

There may also be other reasons to disable something for a period of time (maybe you just want to disable a switch for some reason to stop it being used?). In such instances, it seems a little drastic to have to remove the item. Removing the link is (just about) manageable, but (MHO) not the nicest way to perform the function...
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1711132 is a reply to message #1702084] Tue, 13 October 2015 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jaime Vaz is currently offline Jaime VazFriend
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HI!!

I'm having the same problem. I'm developing one binding to operate with one relay board. The relay board has 8 outputs, and I want to label it with name of the device that is connected to output. (Example: Floor Lamp, Lamp, Washer Machine, Heater, ...)

Regards,

Jaime
Re: Overriding channel labels [message #1711302 is a reply to message #1711132] Wed, 14 October 2015 17:16 Go to previous message
Chris Jackson is currently offline Chris JacksonFriend
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Jaime Vaz wrote on Tue, 13 October 2015 12:14
HI!!
The relay board has 8 outputs, and I want to label it with name of the device that is connected to output. (Example: Floor Lamp, Lamp, Washer Machine, Heater, ...)


Then just name the items Floor Lamp, Lamp, etc... Items and channels don't have to have the same name.

So, you can have a channel called, Relay 1, Relay 2 etc, but the items connected to these channels can have different names (as above).
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