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| Pollinate [message #28074] |
Mon, 12 July 2004 10:31  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: thomas.hallgren.frameworx.com
Hi,
BEA has released their Weblogic Workshop under the name "Beehive" on Apache.
A new proposal has been written for Eclipse project named "Pollinate".
Here's a quote:
"Pollinate provides a full-featured Java development environment that
enables developers to visually build and assemble enterprise-scale web
applications, JSPs, web services, and leverage the Java controls framework
for creating and consuming J2EE components; optimized for a service-oriented
architecture."
This project will undoubtedly have a huge overlap with the WTP. Is anyone
looking into the feasibility of merging the two or to gain from synergies?
It's a bit confusing that two major projects with so similar objectives are
started under the Eclipse umbrella at the same time. I don't think I'm the
only one that is a bit confused by this. Any comments?
Regards,
Thomas Hallgren
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| Re: Pollinate [message #28114 is a reply to message #28074] |
Mon, 12 July 2004 11:12  |
| Eclipse User |
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Hello,
I can not agree more with you. It seems really strange.
But I am not sure pollinate has been validated yet. AFAIK, it only is on
the proposal stage.
The WTP, on the contrary, is now a 100% definitive eclipse project and I
do not think pollinate will be accepted as such by the board now that
the WTP has been launched.
I would rather see the BeeHive project integrated in the WTP as a
contribution from BEA.
Maybe a "higher ranked officer" could tell us more about it ? ;)
Regards,
Jean
Thomas Hallgren wrote:
> Hi,
>
> BEA has released their Weblogic Workshop under the name "Beehive" on Apache.
> A new proposal has been written for Eclipse project named "Pollinate".
> Here's a quote:
>
> "Pollinate provides a full-featured Java development environment that
> enables developers to visually build and assemble enterprise-scale web
> applications, JSPs, web services, and leverage the Java controls framework
> for creating and consuming J2EE components; optimized for a service-oriented
> architecture."
>
> This project will undoubtedly have a huge overlap with the WTP. Is anyone
> looking into the feasibility of merging the two or to gain from synergies?
>
> It's a bit confusing that two major projects with so similar objectives are
> started under the Eclipse umbrella at the same time. I don't think I'm the
> only one that is a bit confused by this. Any comments?
>
> Regards,
>
> Thomas Hallgren
>
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| Re: Pollinate [message #28152 is a reply to message #28114] |
Mon, 12 July 2004 12:30 |
| Eclipse User |
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Well, I don't know if I qualify as a "higher ranked officer" but I hope I
can shed a little light on this.
First, as you have correctly pointed out, Pollinate is not yet an officially
created project. It is in the proposal phase. This means that we will be
going through a proposal review and a formal creation review, just as the
WebTools Project has already done. I would invite everyone to start
commenting on the proposal on the eclipse.technology.pollinate news group.
As part of the creation review, we will have to decide where this project
will be created. The views of the community will certainly be taken into
account as we decide this. I could foresee it remaining as an incubator in
the Technology PMC, but that's just one opinion at this point. Frankly,
creating it as a top-level project (e.g. the same as WTP) with a
Board-approved charter seems unlikely at this point.
Second, I do not see any conflict with the WTP. The scope of the WTP project
was carefully crafted to ensure that it targeted standards-based runtimes.
Pollinate is targeting a runtime (Beehive) which is an Apache-based open
source project. Although in the end we may be offering developers a choice
about how they build their applications, I do not see any overlap in the
scope of the two projects.
Third, I assume that many people are likely asking themselves why
Pollinate's press release went out before WTP's. After all, hasn't WTP been
around longer?
The main reason is timing and resources. The Pollinate announce was fairly
low content --- we were simply announcing that a proposal was posted on our
website. And as a practical matter, BEA was willing to put their PR
resources into supporting the announce.
The WTP announce is a much bigger deal. It is a top-level project. The
interest in WTP from press and analysts will be large. It takes time and
resources to prepare the messages, the press release and the plan to ensure
that everything is communicated effectively. I don't know if you've noticed
how many positive stories Eclipse has had over the last little while. This
has not happened by accident. It is a reflection of the time and effort of a
great number of people who are supporting Eclipse. We want to make sure that
the WTP announce is handled in the same way so that we get the maximum
amount of coverage, and that all of the coverage is positive.
That's the best way I know to ensure that WTP gets the recognition it
deserves.
I hope this helps!
"Jean Couillaud" <couillaud@fimasys.fr> wrote in message
news:ccu9mc$fau$1@eclipse.org...
> Hello,
>
> I can not agree more with you. It seems really strange.
> But I am not sure pollinate has been validated yet. AFAIK, it only is on
> the proposal stage.
> The WTP, on the contrary, is now a 100% definitive eclipse project and I
> do not think pollinate will be accepted as such by the board now that
> the WTP has been launched.
> I would rather see the BeeHive project integrated in the WTP as a
> contribution from BEA.
> Maybe a "higher ranked officer" could tell us more about it ? ;)
>
> Regards,
>
> Jean
>
> Thomas Hallgren wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > BEA has released their Weblogic Workshop under the name "Beehive" on
Apache.
> > A new proposal has been written for Eclipse project named "Pollinate".
> > Here's a quote:
> >
> > "Pollinate provides a full-featured Java development environment that
> > enables developers to visually build and assemble enterprise-scale web
> > applications, JSPs, web services, and leverage the Java controls
framework
> > for creating and consuming J2EE components; optimized for a
service-oriented
> > architecture."
> >
> > This project will undoubtedly have a huge overlap with the WTP. Is
anyone
> > looking into the feasibility of merging the two or to gain from
synergies?
> >
> > It's a bit confusing that two major projects with so similar objectives
are
> > started under the Eclipse umbrella at the same time. I don't think I'm
the
> > only one that is a bit confused by this. Any comments?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Thomas Hallgren
> >
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| Re: Pollinate [message #28306 is a reply to message #28268] |
Tue, 13 July 2004 11:18 |
| Eclipse User |
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Thomas,
This is great feedback. And I certainly don't disagree. Eclipse is all about
reusable frameworks. And to the degree possible, Pollinate needs to re-use
what else is available from within Eclipse.
But why are you posting this on the WebTools newsgroup? Why aren't you
communicating with the Pollinate team directly to ask them what their plans
are? Calling this a "major conflict" when Pollinate is still in the proposal
phase is IMHO overstating things. You have an opportunity to influence how
things develop there. So go there and encourage them to co-ordinate and
co-operate with WTP.
Again, Pollinate is a proposal. It makes sense to have an Eclipse project to
support the Apache Beehive project. We want to have tools in Eclipse which
support all sorts of runtimes. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Eclipse is going to drive innovation. We are hopefully going to have many
projects starting in the Technology PMC which will explore lots of different
areas. Pollinate may someday move under the WebTools PMC. Or it may not. But
it will be decided based on community feedback and what makes sense
technically.
But this is all good news. I encourage the debate.
"Thomas Hallgren" <thhal@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:cd0oqo$huq$1@eclipse.org...
> Mike,
>
> "Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
> news:ccue9e$oq4$1@eclipse.org...
> > Second, I do not see any conflict with the WTP. The scope of the WTP
> project
> > was carefully crafted to ensure that it targeted standards-based
runtimes.
> > Pollinate is targeting a runtime (Beehive) which is an Apache-based open
> > source project. Although in the end we may be offering developers a
choice
> > about how they build their applications, I do not see any overlap in the
> > scope of the two projects.
> >
> I see both a major conflict and big overlap. I think the WTP project will
> provide a fair amount of reusable components that IMO should be used when
> building a Beehive integration (I'm thinking about the tools, not the
> runtime). The Beehive toolset is not all that different from what we have
in
> mind for WTP. Why should eclipse endorse more than one JSP editor, more
then
> one way of editing WSDL's, or more then one EJB editor?
>
> In my mind the WTP is there to establish a united platform consisting of
> such tools. Any other project that overlaps in areas that are more or less
> self evident (such as the editors that I mention) should be encouraged to
> use the upcoming WTP artifacts rather than creating new ones.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Thomas Hallgren
>
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| Re: Pollinate [message #28381 is a reply to message #28074] |
Tue, 13 July 2004 11:48 |
| Eclipse User |
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I've been following the BEA Beehive project. I think that a lot of the
press has been somewhat confusing regarding Beehive. To my knowledge BEA
is NOT releasing any part of Weblogic Workshop, yet this what many
articles have been implying. Instead they are releasing is a series of
libraries that make J2EE develop easier. These use annotations,
XML-Beans and workflow for struts development. Pollinate is project to
create editors that will support these libraries. I see this an
extensions to the Web Tools project not an overlap.
I do agree we need to have more detail explanation from the Pollinate
group what they are proposing. I have, like you requested, that they
visit this newsgroup and fill us in.
Regards,
Jeff Duska
Thomas Hallgren wrote:
> Hi,
>
> BEA has released their Weblogic Workshop under the name "Beehive" on Apache.
> A new proposal has been written for Eclipse project named "Pollinate".
> Here's a quote:
>
> "Pollinate provides a full-featured Java development environment that
> enables developers to visually build and assemble enterprise-scale web
> applications, JSPs, web services, and leverage the Java controls framework
> for creating and consuming J2EE components; optimized for a service-oriented
> architecture."
>
> This project will undoubtedly have a huge overlap with the WTP. Is anyone
> looking into the feasibility of merging the two or to gain from synergies?
>
> It's a bit confusing that two major projects with so similar objectives are
> started under the Eclipse umbrella at the same time. I don't think I'm the
> only one that is a bit confused by this. Any comments?
>
> Regards,
>
> Thomas Hallgren
>
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| Re: Pollinate [message #28861 is a reply to message #28268] |
Tue, 13 July 2004 12:49 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: davegabol.eircom.net
Hi,
Just looking in here and surprised at the potential for a "them and us"
scenario with Pollinate. I can't see an issue with having two Web Tools
environments, choice is a good thing.
There are plenty of (say) IDEs on the market, each with their own strengths
and weaknesses. Similarly there are plenty of Eclipse plugins that, for
example, allow database access. I like the ones I use, but I'm sure there
are others that dislike them and prefer something else.
We shouldn't get territorial about something just because we are involved
with it. Open up and greet the choices rather than try to limit them. It's
better for us all. In the end if there are conflicts the developers will
vote with their fingers and one set of tools will fall behind.
Yeah I'm preaching. But really guys we should all be a team. We get too much
BS at work without dragging it into OS.
Dave.
"Thomas Hallgren" <thhal@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:cd0oqo$huq$1@eclipse.org...
> Mike,
>
> "Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
> news:ccue9e$oq4$1@eclipse.org...
> > Second, I do not see any conflict with the WTP. The scope of the WTP
> project
> > was carefully crafted to ensure that it targeted standards-based
runtimes.
> > Pollinate is targeting a runtime (Beehive) which is an Apache-based open
> > source project. Although in the end we may be offering developers a
choice
> > about how they build their applications, I do not see any overlap in the
> > scope of the two projects.
> >
> I see both a major conflict and big overlap. I think the WTP project will
> provide a fair amount of reusable components that IMO should be used when
> building a Beehive integration (I'm thinking about the tools, not the
> runtime). The Beehive toolset is not all that different from what we have
in
> mind for WTP. Why should eclipse endorse more than one JSP editor, more
then
> one way of editing WSDL's, or more then one EJB editor?
>
> In my mind the WTP is there to establish a united platform consisting of
> such tools. Any other project that overlaps in areas that are more or less
> self evident (such as the editors that I mention) should be encouraged to
> use the upcoming WTP artifacts rather than creating new ones.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Thomas Hallgren
>
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| Re: Pollinate [message #28874 is a reply to message #28866] |
Tue, 13 July 2004 13:40 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: davegabol.eircom.net
Hi Thomas,
I agree with your points about building on a common base, but surely that
applies to the "infrastructure" if you like? I got the impression that the
WTP was going to recieve what amounts to a J2EE IDE from IBM. Now if the WTP
was building infrastructure and IBM were porting an IDE (for want of a
better word) to that infrastructure then I'd agree 100% with you. However as
a dev evironment seems to be being built I don't see the harm in an
"opposing" one.
Sorry, I'm new to this project so maybe I have gotten hold of the wrong end
of the stick.
In any case, if there's anything I can do to help this project that is
within my capabilities I would be happy! Just let me know.
Dave.
"Thomas Hallgren" <thhal@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:cd15uu$dto$1@eclipse.org...
> Dave,
>
> The fact that lots of tool vendors want to create advanced Web tools, each
> with their own flavor and targeted to their own runtime, is exactly why
> Eclipse WTP exists. WTP is there to try and provide as capable platform as
> possible to make things easier for projects like Pollinate and to continue
> elaborating the common architecture, look and feel, quality etc. that has
> become trademarks of Eclipse.
>
> > We shouldn't get territorial about something just because we are
involved
> > with it. Open up and greet the choices rather than try to limit them.
It's
> > better for us all. In the end if there are conflicts the developers will
> > vote with their fingers and one set of tools will fall behind.
>
> I willingly admit that code (and idea) reuse is a bit cumbersome at first.
> In the long run however we will gain a lot. The fact that we deal with
open
> source is no excuse to create two different architectures that does
> virtually the same thing.
>
> So, open up and greet the opportunity to create something that we can
share
> instead of rejecting it on the base that we do open source. Get involved
in
> WTP and see what you can influence and contribute there. Then build your
> stuff on top of what it all evolves to.
>
> > Yeah I'm preaching. But really guys we should all be a team. We get too
> much
> > BS at work without dragging it into OS.
>
> Exactly. Let's see what we can do together instead of become victims of
the
> NIH syndrome.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Thomas Hallgren
>
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| Re: Pollinate [message #28950 is a reply to message #28344] |
Thu, 15 July 2004 00:53 |
| Eclipse User |
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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:46:02 +0200, Thomas Hallgren <thhal@mailblocks.co=
m> =
wrote:
> I posted the following on the eclipse.pollinate newsgroup.
Wow!
I had no idea there was such confusion about Pollinate and WTP.
I am on vacation and checking email/newsgroups infrequently.
I'll do what I can to clear things up.
1) Pollinate is to WTP as Equinox is to Eclipse.
Pollinate is tightly focused on delivering a Beehive related toolset whe=
re =
as WTP, like Eclipse itself, is much broader and deeper.
Anything that Pollinate can reuse from WTP, it will.
No NIH syndrome here ;-)
At this early stage of the game I'm not going to assume that WTP will =
adopt any of the work done in Pollinate, but if our work is of good =
quality then I hope that WTP will consider it in the future. Pollinate's=
=
approach is not to compete with WTP but to explore a toolset related to =
Beehive.
2) Pollinate is tightly focused on Beehive
Pollinate is on a much tighter schedule than WTP to keep it focused.
If there is some key functionality in WTP that makes sense for Pollinate=
=
to wait for, then thats what we'll do.
Its also possible that we will work with the WTP team to get specific =
things that Pollinate needs implemented sooner.
On the other hand, if we have to sacrifice non-Beehive specific =
functionality such as a JSP editor because it is not available yet from =
WTP and we don't have time in Pollinate's schedule to help implement it,=
=
then it won't be included as part of the initial Pollinate release.
Pollinate's core focus is Beehive related builders, views, editors, etc.=
3) Pollinate is in the proposal stage
Pollinate has not been "blessed" by higher powers yet ;-)
Our initial focus over the next several weeks is to define more =
specifically what Pollinate is.
We've been "waving our hands" and stating that "Pollinate is Beehive =
specific tools", but what does that really mean?
Specifically what tools are we talking about?
What editors, views, etc?
That is the first task set before the Pollinate team.
I don't envision Pollinate being more than a technology project for now.=
In the future, Pollinate might be promoted to a subproject of WTP or the=
=
Pollinate technology might be incorported into WTP in various places, bu=
t =
that depends upon the quality of our work in Pollinate and the thoughts =
and wishes of the Eclipse community at large... its way to early to tell=
=
right now.
I welcome everyone to the eclipse.technology.pollinate newsgroup to dicu=
ss =
further anything and everything related to Pollinate and Pollinate's =
relationship with WTP.
Especially during the planning phase, I look forward to any comments whe=
re =
Pollinate and WTP overlap and where it makes sense for Pollinate to reus=
e =
WTP functionality.
I will continue to post weekly summaries, progress, etc on the =
eclipse.technology.pollinate newsgroup in an effort to be as open and =
transparent as possible.
For completeness, I have appended my somewhat overlapping response to =
Thomas Hallgren that I posted on the eclipse.technology.pollinate =
newsgroup.
- Dan
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------=
---------
Newsgroups: eclipse.technology.pollinate
Subject: Re: Pollinate and WTP
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:30:09 -0400
Organization: Instantiations
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:41:08 +0200, Thomas Hallgren <thhal@mailblocks.co=
m> =
wrote:
> I'm curious to what extent Pollinate plans to use WTP artifacts.
Anywhere it makes sense and fits into the schedule, Pollinate should use=
=
WTP artifacts.
Once the Pollinate high level plan is more evolved, we will begin lookin=
g =
more specifically at what WTP artifacts should be used as part of =
Pollinate.
No NIH syndrome here ;-)
> The proposed time schedule suggest that you will have very little time=
=
> to wait for any of the submissions that will be made in WTP.
If there is some key functionality in WTP that makes sense for Pollinate=
=
to wait for, then thats what we'll do.
Its also possible that we will work with the WTP team to get specific =
things that Pollinate needs implemented sooner.
Its a bit early in the Pollinate lifecycle to know this yet.
We'll have to wait and see.
> IMHO, it would be great if the two projects could form a common base a=
nd =
> use a common infrastructure. What's Pollinates opinion on this?
I agree that it would be great to have a common base and infrastructure.=
I would like to evolve the Pollinate plan with that in mind.
In general the WTP focus is quite broad and deep while in comparison =
Pollinate is very narrowly focus focused on Apache Beehive oriented tool=
s =
only.
If you are volunteering, I would welcome your ongoing input during the =
planning phase to identify areas of synergy.
What are the areas of overlap between WTP and Pollinate as you see them =
today?
- Dan
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| Re: Pollinate [message #29365 is a reply to message #28074] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 00:13 |
| Eclipse User |
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BEA's workshop uses annotation-based (like xdoclet but much more)
development model hidden behind its graphical editors. The tool also has
a model for extensions called "controls".
-WebLogic Workshop works with java-like source artifacts laced with these
annotations. BEA also has processors and compilers such as Javelin that
can understand these annotations and compile them into J2EE runtime
applications.
-You can also create your own "controls" to manipulate these artifacts on
the graphical side of Workshop.
Beehive is an attempt to open these annotations to the J2EE community.
Please note that there are also some annotation JSRs that seek to
standardize some the same tasks.
Pollinate, to my understanding, is to build tools for beehive on a non-bea
platform (i.e. eclipse). Pollinate can be a consumer for WTP. I do not
see an overlap or comptetion between the two projects. It is one of the
projects that will validate if we are building a useful API.
It will be very useful if pollinate project participates in the
requirements tasks for WTP so that we can build projects that can support
each other.
Thomas Hallgren wrote:
> Hi,
> BEA has released their Weblogic Workshop under the name "Beehive" on Apache.
> A new proposal has been written for Eclipse project named "Pollinate".
> Here's a quote:
> "Pollinate provides a full-featured Java development environment that
> enables developers to visually build and assemble enterprise-scale web
> applications, JSPs, web services, and leverage the Java controls framework
> for creating and consuming J2EE components; optimized for a service-oriented
> architecture."
> This project will undoubtedly have a huge overlap with the WTP. Is anyone
> looking into the feasibility of merging the two or to gain from synergies?
> It's a bit confusing that two major projects with so similar objectives are
> started under the Eclipse umbrella at the same time. I don't think I'm the
> only one that is a bit confused by this. Any comments?
> Regards,
> Thomas Hallgren
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