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| Six basic questions [message #184867] |
Tue, 19 December 2006 11:34  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: catdogbeloved.yahoo.com
Hello,
I have six questions based on the latest version of Eclipse.
1. "About -> Plug-in details" shows no default UML plugin,
although I installed -almost- every plugin (read below), and
"Help->Software Updates->..." shows no installable UML plugin.
How do I install it?
2. Installing the ""BIRT" plugin set triggers the following error:
"Eclipse BIRT Report Designer Feature (2.2.0.v20061117-1020) requires
feature "org.eclipse.datatools.enablement.oda.designer.feature (1.0.0)",
or later version."
The dependency error does not go away if I click on "Select Required",
and no such plugin seems to be available at all. How do install BIRT?
3. Installing the "EMFT" plugin set: The selection triggers no dependency
error (OK), the downloading fails with a generic "Update operation has
failed". How do I install EMFT?
4. Running the default "hello world" triggers the following error:
ExecPermission/ExecOptionPermission permission checks. For
documentation on how to configure rmid security, refer to:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/tooldocs/solaris/rmid.html
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/tooldocs/win32/rmid.html
As I run Eclipse under Apple OSX 10.4.8, what is the relevant
documentation for this system? If I follow the solaris specs,
I get the following error:
--> rmid -J-Djava.security.policy=rmid.policy
Activation.main: warning: sun.rmi.activation.execPolicy system
property unspecified and no ExecPermissions/ExecOptionPermissions
granted; subsequent activation attempts may fail due to unsuccessful
ExecPermission/ExecOptionPermission permission checks. For
documentation on how to configure rmid security, refer to:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/tooldocs/solaris/rmid.html
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/tooldocs/win32/rmid.html
Activation.main: an exception occurred: Port already in use: 1098; nested
exception is:
java.net.BindException: Address already in use
java.rmi.server.ExportException: Port already in use: 1098; nested
exception is:
java.net.BindException: Address already in use
at sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPTransport.listen(TCPTransport.java: 243)
at
sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPTransport.exportObject(TCPTransport .java:178)
at
sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.exportObject(TCPEndpoint.j ava:382)
at sun.rmi.transport.LiveRef.exportObject(LiveRef.java:116)
at
sun.rmi.server.UnicastServerRef.exportObject(UnicastServerRe f.java:180)
at sun.rmi.registry.RegistryImpl.setup(RegistryImpl.java:92)
at sun.rmi.registry.RegistryImpl.<init>(RegistryImpl.java:68)
at
java.rmi.registry.LocateRegistry.createRegistry(LocateRegist ry.java:222)
at sun.rmi.server.Activation.main(Activation.java:1892)
Caused by: java.net.BindException: Address already in use
at java.net.PlainSocketImpl.socketBind(Native Method)
at java.net.PlainSocketImpl.bind(PlainSocketImpl.java:359)
at java.net.ServerSocket.bind(ServerSocket.java:319)
at java.net.ServerSocket.<init>(ServerSocket.java:185)
at java.net.ServerSocket.<init>(ServerSocket.java:97)
at
sun.rmi.transport.proxy.RMIDirectSocketFactory.createServerS ocket(RMIDirectSocketFactory.java:27)
at
sun.rmi.transport.proxy.RMIMasterSocketFactory.createServerS ocket(RMIMasterSocketFactory.java:333)
at
sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.newServerSocket(TCPEndpoin t.java:622)
at sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPTransport.listen(TCPTransport.java: 231)
... 8 more
-->
Further, why using "activatable remote objects" on a hello world example?
why opening the port 1098? Is it an internet port? The documentation does
not explain the problem.
4. Is Eclipse modeled and developed using Eclipse itself?
5. I understand that Eclipse is an Integrated Modeling and Development
Environment, and I like the idea very much. (When Eclipse opens, I would
then expect it to open in UML mode, not in Java mode.) Is there a proper
"hello world", showing the UML model first, and then the conversion
into Java? By "proper hello world" I also mean a full blown GUI (with
menus, about and help) and core plug-in structure, that goes all the way
to display "hello world". If one such example is available, please refer
me to it. If no such example is available, please, please, please, make
one.
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #184876 is a reply to message #184867] |
Tue, 19 December 2006 12:04  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bob,
Comments below.
Bob wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have six questions based on the latest version of Eclipse.
>
> 1. "About -> Plug-in details" shows no default UML plugin, although
> I installed -almost- every plugin (read below), and "Help->Software
> Updates->..." shows no installable UML plugin.
> How do I install it?
UML was not part of Callisto so is not included. You should check out
their home page and specifically this page for update manager instructions:
http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/mdt/updates/
>
> 2. Installing the ""BIRT" plugin set triggers the following error:
>
> "Eclipse BIRT Report Designer Feature (2.2.0.v20061117-1020)
> requires feature
> "org.eclipse.datatools.enablement.oda.designer.feature (1.0.0)",
> or later version."
>
> The dependency error does not go away if I click on "Select Required",
> and no such plugin seems to be available at all. How do install BIRT?
Probably checking out their website and asking on their specific
newsgroup will be helpful.
http://download.eclipse.org/birt/downloads/
>
> 3. Installing the "EMFT" plugin set: The selection triggers no
> dependency error (OK), the downloading fails with a generic "Update
> operation has
> failed". How do I install EMFT?
EMFT is a collection of components and checking out the website should
help. Here's what it says about update sites:
<http://www.eclipse.org/emft/updates/>
http://www.eclipse.org/emft/updates/
>
> 4. Running the default "hello world" triggers the following error:
>
> ExecPermission/ExecOptionPermission permission checks. For
> documentation on how to configure rmid security, refer to:
>
> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/tooldocs/solaris/rmid.html
> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/tooldocs/win32/rmid.html
>
> As I run Eclipse under Apple OSX 10.4.8, what is the relevant
> documentation for this system? If I follow the solaris specs,
> I get the following error:
>
> --> rmid -J-Djava.security.policy=rmid.policy
> Activation.main: warning: sun.rmi.activation.execPolicy system
> property unspecified and no ExecPermissions/ExecOptionPermissions
> granted; subsequent activation attempts may fail due to unsuccessful
> ExecPermission/ExecOptionPermission permission checks. For
> documentation on how to configure rmid security, refer to:
>
> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/tooldocs/solaris/rmid.html
> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/tooldocs/win32/rmid.html
>
> Activation.main: an exception occurred: Port already in use: 1098;
> nested exception is: java.net.BindException: Address already in
> use
> java.rmi.server.ExportException: Port already in use: 1098; nested
> exception is: java.net.BindException: Address already in use
> at
> sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPTransport.listen(TCPTransport.java: 243)
> at
> sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPTransport.exportObject(TCPTransport .java:178)
> at
> sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.exportObject(TCPEndpoint.j ava:382)
> at sun.rmi.transport.LiveRef.exportObject(LiveRef.java:116)
> at
> sun.rmi.server.UnicastServerRef.exportObject(UnicastServerRe f.java:180)
> at sun.rmi.registry.RegistryImpl.setup(RegistryImpl.java:92)
> at sun.rmi.registry.RegistryImpl.<init>(RegistryImpl.java:68)
> at
> java.rmi.registry.LocateRegistry.createRegistry(LocateRegist ry.java:222)
> at sun.rmi.server.Activation.main(Activation.java:1892)
> Caused by: java.net.BindException: Address already in use
> at java.net.PlainSocketImpl.socketBind(Native Method)
> at java.net.PlainSocketImpl.bind(PlainSocketImpl.java:359)
> at java.net.ServerSocket.bind(ServerSocket.java:319)
> at java.net.ServerSocket.<init>(ServerSocket.java:185)
> at java.net.ServerSocket.<init>(ServerSocket.java:97)
> at
> sun.rmi.transport.proxy.RMIDirectSocketFactory.createServerS ocket(RMIDirectSocketFactory.java:27)
>
> at
> sun.rmi.transport.proxy.RMIMasterSocketFactory.createServerS ocket(RMIMasterSocketFactory.java:333)
>
> at
> sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.newServerSocket(TCPEndpoin t.java:622)
> at
> sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPTransport.listen(TCPTransport.java: 231)
> ... 8 more
> -->
> Further, why using "activatable remote objects" on a hello world
> example?
> why opening the port 1098? Is it an internet port? The documentation
> does
> not explain the problem.
I've not tried this example. Probably looking at another example will
provide more fruitful unless this specific example has things you need
in it...
>
> 4. Is Eclipse modeled and developed using Eclipse itself?
It's certainly developed using itself but much of it is not modeled.
>
> 5. I understand that Eclipse is an Integrated Modeling and Development
> Environment, and I like the idea very much. (When Eclipse opens, I would
> then expect it to open in UML mode, not in Java mode.)
Modeling is not really the central theme of Eclipse. (But it should
be! Just kidding!!)
> Is there a proper
> "hello world", showing the UML model first, and then the conversion
> into Java?
UML conversion to Java will involve convert UML to Ecore and using EMF
to generate the code from that Ecore model. So if you have a UML model
instance, you could follow the tutorial steps of one of EMF's tutorials,
such as
http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/indextools.cgi/*checkout*/org .eclipse.emf/doc/org.eclipse.emf.doc/tutorials/clibmod/clibm od.html
> By "proper hello world" I also mean a full blown GUI (with menus,
> about and help) and core plug-in structure, that goes all the way
> to display "hello world". If one such example is available, please refer
> me to it. If no such example is available, please, please, please,
> make one.
Probably visiting the UML2 and GMF websites will be useful
http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/mdt/?project=uml2-uml
http://www.eclipse.org/gmf/
>
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<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-15"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
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Bob,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Bob wrote:
<blockquote cite="midbe487739e6931d0d5c54893fa58728c4$1@www.eclipse.org"
type="cite">Hello,
<br>
<br>
I have six questions based on the latest version of Eclipse.
<br>
<br>
1. "About -> Plug-in details" shows no default UML plugin,
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #184899 is a reply to message #184876] |
Tue, 19 December 2006 14:34 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: catdogbeloved.yahoo.com
Thank you.
>Modeling is not really the central theme of Eclipse.
Software Engineering is about Software Development as much as
real-estate architecture/engineering is to building construction.
The IDE part of Eclipse assists in construction, which is a
relatively easy task if one uses patterns. The nasty part is the
modeling. Using UML by pen and paper is not advisable, and a
modeling environment makes very good sense. By having UML into
Eclipse, with a graphical environment and links to the code,
Eclipse is a complete software CAD that can turn open-source projects
on their head. Having the full software cycle unfolded into
Eclipse would also help Eclipse to refine itself, in making
clear the six steps of the cycle: analysis, design, development,
testing, documentation and deployment. It would be a dream machine.
Request:
Please include UML in Callisto, and make the six steps crisp clear
in Callisto's GUI.
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #184921 is a reply to message #184899] |
Tue, 19 December 2006 15:46 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
Bob,
UML will be part of Europa. We can't change what's in Callisto at this
stage of the game...
Bob wrote:
> Thank you.
>
>> Modeling is not really the central theme of Eclipse.
>
> Software Engineering is about Software Development as much as
> real-estate architecture/engineering is to building construction.
> The IDE part of Eclipse assists in construction, which is a relatively
> easy task if one uses patterns. The nasty part is the
> modeling. Using UML by pen and paper is not advisable, and a
> modeling environment makes very good sense. By having UML into
> Eclipse, with a graphical environment and links to the code,
> Eclipse is a complete software CAD that can turn open-source projects
> on their head. Having the full software cycle unfolded into
> Eclipse would also help Eclipse to refine itself, in making clear the
> six steps of the cycle: analysis, design, development,
> testing, documentation and deployment. It would be a dream machine.
>
> Request:
> Please include UML in Callisto, and make the six steps crisp clear
> in Callisto's GUI.
>
>
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185012 is a reply to message #184899] |
Tue, 19 December 2006 21:31 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eclipse5.rizzoweb.com
Bob wrote:
> Thank you.
>
>> Modeling is not really the central theme of Eclipse.
>
> Software Engineering is about Software Development as much as
> real-estate architecture/engineering is to building construction.
> The IDE part of Eclipse assists in construction, which is a relatively
> easy task if one uses patterns. The nasty part is the
> modeling. Using UML by pen and paper is not advisable, and a
> modeling environment makes very good sense. By having UML into
> Eclipse, with a graphical environment and links to the code,
> Eclipse is a complete software CAD that can turn open-source projects
> on their head. Having the full software cycle unfolded into
> Eclipse would also help Eclipse to refine itself, in making clear the
> six steps of the cycle: analysis, design, development,
> testing, documentation and deployment. It would be a dream machine.
>
> Request:
> Please include UML in Callisto, and make the six steps crisp clear
> in Callisto's GUI.
>
>
Please do NOT - we don't need anther Rose or TogetherJ or bloated
Rational suite. Those products have their audiences and Eclipse has its.
The above views on modeling are by no means universally held.
You should look at the Rational offerings if the above is what you want
- they are built on top of Eclipse.
My two cents,
Eric
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185084 is a reply to message #185012] |
Wed, 20 December 2006 10:55 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: catdogbeloved.yahoo.com
>We don't need anther Rose or TogetherJ or bloated Rational suite.
"We" who? You certainly do not, as you are stating it. But there are
people like me who do need an integrated modeling environment, and ECLIPSE
has already all the components. Incidentally, ECLIPSE can be customized by
mounting plugins for different tasks, so I see no difficulty in having
plugins for modeling and plugins for construction. You are a builder, I am
an architect; we have different perspectives.
>Those products have their audiences and Eclipse has its [own].
ECLIPSE is a general platform that one can customize to fit one's needs.
The plug-in approach is great also in this respect.
Bob
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185100 is a reply to message #185012] |
Wed, 20 December 2006 11:56 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
Eric,
This is a very odd and inappropriate response. Trashing vendor
products---ones which have zero chance of actually showing up in
Callisto anyway---seems most undiplomatic to say the least and really
isn't worth two cents to express We can't add anything to Callisto
because what's included there was determined more than a year ago. But
Europa is not limited in who can participate and it is most certainly
not turning away anything simply because someone might consider such an
addition bloat rather than useful. As Bob points out, I don't think
you have a good sense of what Eclipse is all about when you label entire
areas of interest as avoidable bloat that isn't needed because you
apparently don't need it. There's been a great deal of interest in
modeling tools of late, so let's try to be sure to promote the view that
Eclipse is an inclusive community that addresses a growing set of needs
rather than a community of cliques that frown upon other parts of the
community that don't appear to be of immediate interest...
Eric Rizzo wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>> Thank you.
>>
>>> Modeling is not really the central theme of Eclipse.
>>
>> Software Engineering is about Software Development as much as
>> real-estate architecture/engineering is to building construction.
>> The IDE part of Eclipse assists in construction, which is a
>> relatively easy task if one uses patterns. The nasty part is the
>> modeling. Using UML by pen and paper is not advisable, and a
>> modeling environment makes very good sense. By having UML into
>> Eclipse, with a graphical environment and links to the code,
>> Eclipse is a complete software CAD that can turn open-source projects
>> on their head. Having the full software cycle unfolded into
>> Eclipse would also help Eclipse to refine itself, in making clear the
>> six steps of the cycle: analysis, design, development,
>> testing, documentation and deployment. It would be a dream machine.
>>
>> Request:
>> Please include UML in Callisto, and make the six steps crisp clear
>> in Callisto's GUI.
>>
>>
>
> Please do NOT - we don't need anther Rose or TogetherJ or bloated
> Rational suite. Those products have their audiences and Eclipse has its.
> The above views on modeling are by no means universally held.
> You should look at the Rational offerings if the above is what you
> want - they are built on top of Eclipse.
>
> My two cents,
> Eric
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185274 is a reply to message #185100] |
Thu, 21 December 2006 03:48 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eclipse5.rizzoweb.com
Ed Merks wrote:
> Eric,
>
> This is a very odd and inappropriate response. Trashing vendor
> products---ones which have zero chance of actually showing up in
> Callisto anyway---seems most undiplomatic to say the least and really
> isn't worth two cents to express We can't add anything to Callisto
> because what's included there was determined more than a year ago. But
> Europa is not limited in who can participate and it is most certainly
> not turning away anything simply because someone might consider such an
> addition bloat rather than useful. As Bob points out, I don't think
> you have a good sense of what Eclipse is all about when you label entire
> areas of interest as avoidable bloat that isn't needed because you
> apparently don't need it. There's been a great deal of interest in
> modeling tools of late, so let's try to be sure to promote the view that
> Eclipse is an inclusive community that addresses a growing set of needs
> rather than a community of cliques that frown upon other parts of the
> community that don't appear to be of immediate interest...
First of all, I have just as much right to dispute or discourage an
opinion on the direction Eclipse should take as did the OP. I did not
reprimand the OP for having his opinion, and am not too happy about
being reprimanded for expressing mine. You can disagree, but don't
reprimand me in public for mine.
If you think I don't understand what Eclipse is all about, either from a
technical perspective or a political one, then I guess you have not
noticed a lot of my activity on this forum. I certainly do "get" what it
is about as you describe. However, we are expressing opinions and ideas
in this thread. The OP expressed his and I wanted to offer the differing
perspective that there are already tools (some of them built on Eclipse)
that offer what he was asking for. It is my (dare I say well-informed)
opinion that such a direction is not the direction Eclipse should take.
My opinion about that and the value of the tools I pointed out is based
on years of direct experience (other than TogetherJ, which I used only
briefly).
A configuration of Eclipse that includes the whole modeling toolbox is
available today and I consider it a reasonable thing to have (it may be
more than reasonable, but I don't use it so can't say). However, to
think that Eclipse would go in a direction where that was the default
configuration - well that is disconcerting to me. I will continue to
voice that opinion, and I don't quite see how you leap from that to the
idea that I don't "get" what Eclipse is about.
It's too bad you didn't like the tone or presentation, but even
re-reading it I don't think I'd change much about it. I did not "trash"
any products as you accuse me of, other than associating Rational Suite
with "bloat" - any tool that recommends a minimum of 2GB of RAM to use
effectively (and needs every bit of that) has a very difficult time
defending itself from such association. Seriously, it is a hog. Still, I
will not be accused of things I did not do, and the only thing I am
trashing in the quote (below) is the idea that Eclipse should go in the
direction of an all-in-one "round-trip" modeling tool. I explained my
thoughts on that above.
I take issue with the ideas originally expressed that formal modeling is
essential to include, as it is not used on many successful projects.
That is all my post was trying to say.
Sorry this got long - I didn't have time to make it short,
Eric
> Eric Rizzo wrote:
>> Please do NOT - we don't need anther Rose or TogetherJ or bloated
>> Rational suite. Those products have their audiences and Eclipse has its.
>> The above views on modeling are by no means universally held.
>> You should look at the Rational offerings if the above is what you
>> want - they are built on top of Eclipse.
>>
>> My two cents,
>> Eric
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185293 is a reply to message #185084] |
Thu, 21 December 2006 04:23 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eclipse5.rizzoweb.com
Bob wrote:
>> We don't need anther Rose or TogetherJ or bloated Rational suite.
>
> "We" who? You certainly do not, as you are stating it. But there are
> people like me who do need an integrated modeling environment, and
> ECLIPSE has already all the components. Incidentally, ECLIPSE can be
> customized by mounting plugins for different tasks, so I see no
> difficulty in having plugins for modeling and plugins for construction.
> You are a builder, I am an architect; we have different perspectives.
I'm not sure if you intended to sound condescending, but it came across
that way a little bit.
"We" meaning the Java tool user community, specifically the subset of
that that are Eclipse users.
Incidentally, I have held the title of Architect at a couple of jobs,
and use that moniker regularly. However, I am not the kind of architect
who is not also a builder - I've worked with those kinds of architects
and they have been neither effective nor helpful.
> ECLIPSE is a general platform that one can customize to fit one's needs.
> The plug-in approach is great also in this respect.
In that point we are in total agreement. I am glad that there are
plugins available that bring a modeling toolbox to Eclipse (I'm even
glad that the Rational suite exists, even though the implementation of
it has serious problems - the mere presence of choice is good). I just
don't want to see the default configuration of Eclipse turn into that
kind of tool. If that was not your intended idea, then I misunderstood
and apologize for assuming too much.
Also, for your benefit, I'll re-iterate that Rational and MyEclipse (and
others?) offer tools that are at least close to what it sounds like you
want. Have you looked at those products?
Eric
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185362 is a reply to message #185274] |
Thu, 21 December 2006 12:14 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eric,
Comments below.
Eric Rizzo wrote:
> Ed Merks wrote:
>> Eric,
>>
>> This is a very odd and inappropriate response. Trashing vendor
>> products---ones which have zero chance of actually showing up in
>> Callisto anyway---seems most undiplomatic to say the least and
>> really isn't worth two cents to express We can't add anything to
>> Callisto because what's included there was determined more than a
>> year ago. But Europa is not limited in who can participate and it is
>> most certainly not turning away anything simply because someone might
>> consider such an addition bloat rather than useful. As Bob points
>> out, I don't think you have a good sense of what Eclipse is all about
>> when you label entire areas of interest as avoidable bloat that isn't
>> needed because you apparently don't need it. There's been a great
>> deal of interest in modeling tools of late, so let's try to be sure
>> to promote the view that Eclipse is an inclusive community that
>> addresses a growing set of needs rather than a community of cliques
>> that frown upon other parts of the community that don't appear to be
>> of immediate interest...
>
> First of all, I have just as much right to dispute or discourage an
> opinion on the direction Eclipse should take as did the OP. I did not
> reprimand the OP for having his opinion, and am not too happy about
> being reprimanded for expressing mine. You can disagree, but don't
> reprimand me in public for mine.
You suggested to Bob that he can across as condescending when reacting
negatively to your comments and I'm suggesting that referring to a whole
technology area as bloat similarly comes across as condescending and
that this is something to be avoided when possible. I would also
suggest that you not be so sensitive to negative reactions while being
somewhat less sensitive to the negative reactions of others.
> If you think I don't understand what Eclipse is all about, either from
> a technical perspective or a political one, then I guess you have not
> noticed a lot of my activity on this forum.
I've definitely noticed, otherwise I would have dismissed your comments
as simply ignorant rather than oddly out of place for someone doing such
a excellent job helping promote Eclipse and the community.
> I certainly do "get" what it is about as you describe. However, we are
> expressing opinions and ideas in this thread. The OP expressed his and
> I wanted to offer the differing perspective that there are already
> tools (some of them built on Eclipse) that offer what he was asking for.
He was simply asking (among other things) that the tools are already
available at Eclipse be included in Callisto, which isn't possible but
they certainly can and will be included in Europa.
> It is my (dare I say well-informed) opinion that such a direction is
> not the direction Eclipse should take.
Huh? You've seen that a top level Modeling project exists at Eclipse,
right? And you know that it provides much of what Bob is looking for
too, right? As such, you should not be surprised that we would take
strong exception to a statement such as this one.
> My opinion about that and the value of the tools I pointed out is
> based on years of direct experience (other than TogetherJ, which I
> used only briefly).
My experience is based on promoting the use of modeling at Eclipse since
2002 and with more than 1,000,000 installations of EMF downloaded this
year, the rapid growth in this area is clear. It's not entirely clear
that your experience relates directly to what Eclipse itself provides...
> A configuration of Eclipse that includes the whole modeling toolbox is
> available today and I consider it a reasonable thing to have (it may
> be more than reasonable, but I don't use it so can't say). However, to
> think that Eclipse would go in a direction where that was the default
> configuration - well that is disconcerting to me.
I would definitely agree that it would not make good sense as the
default configuration anymore than would say CDT instead of JDT. But it
makes perfect sense to include such things as first class citizens in
Europa so that someone could make it their default configuration if they
so choose. It would also be a nice community thing if other folks
didn't point at that and call it bloat. I'm sure that eventually the
combined weight of what's all available at Eclipse will out bloat
anything provided by any commercial vendor, but with a plugin structure,
users can pick and choose what they need and want. Eclipse is about
providing a growing set of such choices...
> I will continue to voice that opinion, and I don't quite see how you
> leap from that to the idea that I don't "get" what Eclipse is about.
The word "bloat" really rubs the wrong way and while I may have opinions
about the relative merits of some of the things I see at Eclipse, I
would always try to make comments constructive when possible. I think
Eclipse is very much about being inclusive...
> It's too bad you didn't like the tone or presentation, but even
> re-reading it I don't think I'd change much about it. I did not
> "trash" any products as you accuse me of, other than associating
> Rational Suite with "bloat" - any tool that recommends a minimum of
> 2GB of RAM to use effectively (and needs every bit of that) has a very
> difficult time defending itself from such association. Seriously, it
> is a hog.
Perhaps trashing is an overstatement, but "bloat" and now "hog" are
certainly not terms of endearment! ;-) What rubs the wrong way most for
me is that you don't seem to be considering the alternative: light
weight Eclipse tools that provide similar (but less) functionality might
be exactly what Bob is hoping and should be expecting to see...
> Still, I will not be accused of things I did not do, and the only
> thing I am trashing in the quote (below) is the idea that Eclipse
> should go in the direction of an all-in-one "round-trip" modeling tool.
I am again taken aback by this blanket statement which seems to
undermine the very point the sentence starts to make. What do you think
is the role of the Modeling project at Eclipse? Should we not be
striving to produce the best set of integrated tools the world has to
offer? We're working hard to be competitive, and with some success:
http://www.dsic.upv.es/workshops/dsdm06/files/dsdm06-11-Pele chano.pdf
> I explained my thoughts on that above.
> I take issue with the ideas originally expressed that formal modeling
> is essential to include, as it is not used on many successful projects.
So not only are the commercial tools bloated hogs, but the entire
modeling area is suspect because it's possible to be successful without
using modeling at all. Why have high level languages when assemblers are
more than sufficient? ;-) Even when successful, it's possible to be
more successful...
> That is all my post was trying to say.
>
> Sorry this got long - I didn't have time to make it short,
We are certainly all entitled to our opinions and to express them with
hopefully with a significant level of diplomacy. I must say that I was
put out by your comments and that I don't feel much reassured still that
from your perspective modeling has a significant role to play at
Eclipse. It comes across that modeling is bloat that's best avoided at
Eclipse and if you as an Eclipse user are interested in it then "we"
would suggest you go use the bloated vendor hog products and leave our
beloved light weight Eclipse untainted by it. Again, I'm sure I
overstate the perception by an order of magnitude now ;-) but I hope you
can see how it's easy it is to arrive at this perception from your
seemingly innocent commentary. (I have a terrible habit of picking at
every word that's used! It's very annoying, I know!!)
To end on a more positive spin. I do very much appreciate that folks
like you (and in fact especially you) contribute a great deal to the
community with tireless help on the newsgroups. Perhaps at EclipseCon I
could show you some of the very cool, useful, and popular modeling
technologies that Eclipse already provides to help make your view on
this area a more positive one. And I'm sorry if you've taken offense to
my criticism of your criticism. Likely we could both have said similar
things much more gently (especially me)...
> Eric
>
>
>> Eric Rizzo wrote:
>>> Please do NOT - we don't need anther Rose or TogetherJ or bloated
>>> Rational suite. Those products have their audiences and Eclipse has
>>> its.
>>> The above views on modeling are by no means universally held.
>>> You should look at the Rational offerings if the above is what you
>>> want - they are built on top of Eclipse.
>>>
>>> My two cents,
>>> Eric
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Eric,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Eric Rizzo wrote:
<blockquote cite="midemd071$b73$1@utils.eclipse.org" type="cite">Ed
Merks wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Eric,
<br>
<br>
This is a very odd and inappropriate response.
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185379 is a reply to message #185293] |
Thu, 21 December 2006 13:51 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: catdogbeloved.yahoo.com
Rational runs on Windows and Linux, but I have a MAC.
MyEclipse is new to me, and it runs on MAC, so I will have a look at it.
I observe that SUN's Java 6 runs on Windows and Linux, not on MAC.
I have just installed MagicDraw, I'll see what it can do.
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185387 is a reply to message #185362] |
Thu, 21 December 2006 14:04 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: catdogbeloved.yahoo.com
>Perhaps at EclipseCon I could show you some of the very cool, useful, and
popular modeling technologies that Eclipse already provides to help make your
view on this area a more positive one.
I would be very interested in that presentation too. I am not sure whether
I can attend, so I would love to have the possibility to read the slides.
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185426 is a reply to message #184867] |
Thu, 21 December 2006 17:22 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: catdogbeloved.yahoo.com
>By "proper hello world" I also mean a full blown GUI (with menus, about and
help) and core plug-in structure, that goes all the way to display "hello
world". If one such example is available, please refer me to it. If no such
example is available, please, please, please, make one.
Let me elaborate on this a wee bit. The greatest difficulty nowadays is to
kickstart a new project choosing from the many different languages and
GUIs and platforms in a way that it will all fit together and will not tax
the real work of analysis/modeling/construction/maintenance. When planning
an information system one applies a long list of technical constraints
that are independent from the specific project, and it would be a relief
if one could have it all set in place and ready for ... customisation?
This would be a step further with design patterns. The whole idea with
design patterns is exactly identical to the original idea behind
assembler, and then with structured programming, so much that, nowadays,
programmers seem to forget that a whole lot of code hides behind each
high-level command. Design patterns extend the idea to objects. What I
have in mind with the above is, that one could have the whole initial
structure of an application ready (UML specification and automatic code
generation): the GUI, the menus, the help/documentation system, the
plug-in system, the automatic updates system, etc, all ready to be
customised. One would not have to waste time coding the main GUI, then put
anchors and attach code to the right places. The plug-in approach in
ECLIPSE is already a demonstration of this. If one strips down ECLIPSE,
enough to make it general purpose, the development of new applications
would have a well structured canvas/framework to start with. That is,
ECLIPSE itself, as an application, happens to be the new paradigm of how
to make information systems.
I understand that ECLIPSE does not have an UML specification, but I think
it is only a matter of time for this all to happen.
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185432 is a reply to message #185426] |
Thu, 21 December 2006 18:38 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Bob,
Comments below.
Bob wrote:
>> By "proper hello world" I also mean a full blown GUI (with menus,
>> about and
> help) and core plug-in structure, that goes all the way to display
> "hello world". If one such example is available, please refer me to
> it. If no such example is available, please, please, please, make one.
Given your comments later, I think you would find these interesting in
that these techniques can be used to produce customized *and
*customizable working examples:
http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/GMF_Tutorial
http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/indextools.cgi/org.eclipse.em f/doc/org.eclipse.emf.doc/tutorials/xlibmod/xlibmod.html
>
> Let me elaborate on this a wee bit. The greatest difficulty nowadays
> is to kickstart a new project choosing from the many different
> languages and GUIs and platforms in a way that it will all fit
> together and will not tax the real work of
> analysis/modeling/construction/maintenance.
I hear you! ;-) There's always so much promise and always a better
thing just coming along ,and yet the fundamental problems often just
repeat themselves...
> When planning an information system one applies a long list of
> technical constraints that are independent from the specific project,
> and it would be a relief if one could have it all set in place and
> ready for ... customisation? This would be a step further with design
> patterns. The whole idea with design patterns is exactly identical to
> the original idea behind assembler, and then with structured
> programming, so much that, nowadays, programmers seem to forget that a
> whole lot of code hides behind each high-level command. Design
> patterns extend the idea to objects. What I have in mind with the
> above is, that one could have the whole initial structure of an
> application ready (UML specification and automatic code generation):
> the GUI, the menus, the help/documentation system, the plug-in system,
> the automatic updates system, etc, all ready to be customised.
That's why I think the above links are interesting for you because given
a UML2 standard model you can apply all the same techniques and do
exactly the type of thing you've just outlined.
> One would not have to waste time coding the main GUI, then put anchors
> and attach code to the right places. The plug-in approach in ECLIPSE
> is already a demonstration of this. If one strips down ECLIPSE, enough
> to make it general purpose, the development of new applications would
> have a well structured canvas/framework to start with. That is,
> ECLIPSE itself, as an application, happens to be the new paradigm of
> how to make information systems.
I definitely believe modeling could be applied in many more situations
to great benefit., but it's impossible to convince people of this with
just words and this is really the way it should be. Folks like Eric have
a legitimate reason to be doubtful when so much remains to be done. The
proof after all is in what's actually achieved, not in the potential of
great promises. But that being said, I think Eclipse already has a very
solid modeling core that implements many of the ideas you've outlined
and most definitely the growing, diverse, modeling community is rapidly
building interesting new solutions...
>
> I understand that ECLIPSE does not have an UML specification, but I
> think it is only a matter of time for this all to happen.
>
>
Eclipse may not have a UML specification, but fortunately it has
something that's perhaps more important yet, an implementation of the
UML latest specification. :-) It's certainly a start and all the rest
may well follow...
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Bob,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Bob wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid52b98fe96f43ab8b7d867a848a02833b$1@www.eclipse.org"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">By "proper hello world" I also mean a full
blown GUI (with menus, about and </blockquote>
help) and core plug-in structure, that goes all the way to display
"hello world". If one such example is available, please refer me to it.
If no such example is available, please, please, please, make one.
<br>
</blockquote>
Given your comments later, I think you would find these interesting in
that these techniques can be used to produce customized <b>and </b>customizable
working examples:<br>
<blockquote><a href="http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/GMF_Tutorial">http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/GMF_Tutorial</a><br>
<a
href=" http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/indextools.cgi/org.eclipse.em f/doc/org.eclipse.emf.doc/tutorials/xlibmod/xlibmod.html"> http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/indextools.cgi/org.eclipse.em f/doc/org.eclipse.emf.doc/tutorials/xlibmod/xlibmod.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid52b98fe96f43ab8b7d867a848a02833b$1@www.eclipse.org"
type="cite"><br>
Let me elaborate on this a wee bit. The greatest difficulty nowadays is
to kickstart a new project choosing from the many different languages
and GUIs and platforms in a way that it will all fit together and will
not tax the real work of analysis/modeling/construction/maintenance.</blockquote>
I hear you! ;-)
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185602 is a reply to message #185362] |
Sat, 23 December 2006 15:28 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eclipse5.rizzoweb.com
I believe now that I over-extended the OP's point to mean that he wanted
a total modeling round-trip tool to be what Eclipse *is*, rather than
one option. That was my mistake.
I'm pretty sure I made it clear that I see EMF and the other
modeling-related efforts to be worthwhile, just that I would not want to
see them become the "standard" configuration.
I'll also say that words were still being put into my mouth; for
example, I did not question the validity of the "entire modeling area" -
instead I disputed the notion that modeling is universally essential for
every project and developer and that it should be a base part of Eclipse.
I admit my misunderstanding and apologize for that part of my subsequent
reaction. I'm done defending words I did not say, however.
Eric
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| Re: Six basic questions [message #185634 is a reply to message #185432] |
Sat, 23 December 2006 19:06 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: catdogbeloved.yahoo.com
Ed,
Thank you for the links and the moral support. I shall have a look at GMF
and EMF when I manage to install them without errors. I have been
longing for an IDE + UML modeling tool. I own (designed and built) a
system that is now 15 years old, rewritten and extended year after year,
changing four times the programming language and three times the platform.
At this time, the system runs on linux only, and is written using five
different languages glued together by PERL. The system now needs to run
on windows and mac osx. The GUI is the only part that taxed the
development.
I feel like Moses trying to cross the Red sea, again.
Eric,
I respect your point. I do not share it, but I respect it. I think what
you are saying is that you dislike the waterfall method. I do not want
to enter the religious war about development life-cycles. I am happy
with the waterfall method, as it is centuries old, and proved to be
successful in other fields. It is only a matter of time for it to
succeed also in software engineering, and I think that UML and design
patterns are an important step forward in this direction. I think
Dijkstra himself would have appreciated it.
Thank you for the nice chat, and for the informations. ECLIPSE looks
promising, and I look forward to see what it can do. In the meantime,
happy holidays to you all.
Bob
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