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Home » Modeling » EMF "Technology" (Ecore Tools, EMFatic, etc)  » [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations
[Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #128743] Mon, 18 August 2008 16:36 Go to next message
Dimitrios Kolovos is currently offline Dimitrios KolovosFriend
Messages: 1776
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi,

The old Emfatic tooling (0.0.2) allowed annotations without details e.g.

@ann
class X {}

The new tooling (CVS version) doesn't allow this any more as the parser
complains that it expects a ( - with () it doesn't work either as it
expects an identifier after (.

I suspect that this is a bug as ECore itself allows detail-less
annotations (or at least the ECore editor doesn't complain about them).

Cheers,
Dimitrios
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #129321 is a reply to message #128743] Tue, 02 September 2008 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dimitrios Kolovos is currently offline Dimitrios KolovosFriend
Messages: 1776
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
Dimitrios

Dimitrios Kolovos wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The old Emfatic tooling (0.0.2) allowed annotations without details e.g.
>
> @ann
> class X {}
>
> The new tooling (CVS version) doesn't allow this any more as the parser
> complains that it expects a ( - with () it doesn't work either as it
> expects an identifier after (.
>
> I suspect that this is a bug as ECore itself allows detail-less
> annotations (or at least the ECore editor doesn't complain about them).
>
> Cheers,
> Dimitrios
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #129334 is a reply to message #129321] Tue, 02 September 2008 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 30996
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Dimitrios,

I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a bugzilla...


Dimitrios Kolovos wrote:
> Any thoughts on this?
>
> Cheers,
> Dimitrios
>
> Dimitrios Kolovos wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The old Emfatic tooling (0.0.2) allowed annotations without details e.g.
>>
>> @ann
>> class X {}
>>
>> The new tooling (CVS version) doesn't allow this any more as the
>> parser complains that it expects a ( - with () it doesn't work either
>> as it expects an identifier after (.
>>
>> I suspect that this is a bug as ECore itself allows detail-less
>> annotations (or at least the ECore editor doesn't complain about them).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dimitrios
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #129442 is a reply to message #129334] Tue, 02 September 2008 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Carpenter is currently offline Andy CarpenterFriend
Messages: 145
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
> Dimitrios,
>
> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can find
> some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a halt.
> It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a bugzilla...

I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).

Andy.
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #129455 is a reply to message #129442] Wed, 03 September 2008 06:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: sven.efftinge.de

Andy Carpenter schrieb:
> "Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
>> Dimitrios,
>>
>> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can find
>> some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a halt.
>> It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a bugzilla...
>
> I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
> re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).
>
> Andy.
>

Hi Andy,

we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic
to show case the features of it.
We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
on it together?

regards,
Sven
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #129480 is a reply to message #129455] Wed, 03 September 2008 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Carpenter is currently offline Andy CarpenterFriend
Messages: 145
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Sven,

I definitely interested in working with you (and others) on Emfatic
tooling. My motivation is to enable some laboratory exercises for
students where they develop models with invariants/constraints,
generate code from the models and then use the generated code
to validate instance data. This means that I'm more interested in
simplicity than completeness.

The Ecore tools would have worked, but I felt tat they looked too
like UML tools, which would have meant that students would expect
the capabilities of UML. Also all of the details of constraint annotations
must be seen by the students. With Emfatic the short form of
annotation names spaces can be used and the Ecore constraints
annotation can be added in the Ecore model generation step.

So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
(implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
it is saved. This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.

The state of support for the Emfatic language is that includes
are not supported, the parsing of generic syntax needs checking,
any instance class name that is not a simple identifier must be put
into quotes and a couple of other minor issues.

How would you like to take any joint work forward?

Andy.

"Sven Efftinge" <sven@efftinge.de> wrote in message
news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Andy Carpenter schrieb:
>> "Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
>>> Dimitrios,
>>>
>>> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
>>> find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
>>> halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a
>>> bugzilla...
>>
>> I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
>> re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).
>>
>> Andy.
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic to
> show case the features of it.
> We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
> that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
> on it together?
>
> regards,
> Sven
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #129492 is a reply to message #129480] Wed, 03 September 2008 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 30996
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080108000404030404090907
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Andy,

Comments below.

Andy Carpenter wrote:
> Hi Sven,
>
> I definitely interested in working with you (and others) on Emfatic
> tooling. My motivation is to enable some laboratory exercises for
> students where they develop models with invariants/constraints,
> generate code from the models and then use the generated code
> to validate instance data. This means that I'm more interested in
> simplicity than completeness.
>
That's cool. Is this current issue holding you up or is just a nit?
I'm very interested in getting more directly involved in this myself.
I'm a bit sick and tired of XML. We could do so much better with
notations focused on ease of human understanding rather than ease of
machine parsing...
> The Ecore tools would have worked, but I felt tat they looked too
> like UML tools, which would have meant that students would expect
> the capabilities of UML.
Time to change their expectations. :-P
> Also all of the details of constraint annotations
> must be seen by the students.
The Ecore Tools editor has quite a nice forms-based design for working
with annotations, though they are kind of tucked away as opposed to
Emfatic, where they are a very visible thing very similar to Java 5.0's
annotations.
> With Emfatic the short form of
> annotation names spaces can be used and the Ecore constraints
> annotation can be added in the Ecore model generation step.
>
The notation is quite nice...
> So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
> (implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
> generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
> it is saved.
It would be quite cool if the base EMF frameworks were more content-type
focused such that they could directly process an Emfatic resource to
extract the Ecore from it. Such things should be possible, but will
take some time and effort...
> This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
> that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
> menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.
>
I don't have a good understanding yet of how direct changes to the Ecore
might be feed back to the Emfatic. I wonder if we should be providing
an importer and even an exporter much like we have for UML and XSD...
> The state of support for the Emfatic language is that includes
> are not supported, the parsing of generic syntax needs checking,
> any instance class name that is not a simple identifier must be put
> into quotes and a couple of other minor issues.
>
All the things that were added in EMF 2.3 need attention... That's even
true for the Ecore Tools editor...
> How would you like to take any joint work forward?
>
That's a very good question. I'd like to get actively involved in this
myself as well. But I don't know much of anything about Xtext yet and I
don't have a good understanding of the current code base. I was hoping
to have time to start on my learning in October when I'll get a chance
to travel to Germany...

Are you patient enough to wait that long? It would be great to have
more interested and active parties...
> Andy.
>
> "Sven Efftinge" <sven@efftinge.de> wrote in message
> news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org...
>
>> Andy Carpenter schrieb:
>>
>>> "Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>> Dimitrios,
>>>>
>>>> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
>>>> find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
>>>> halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a
>>>> bugzilla...
>>>>
>>> I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
>>> re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).
>>>
>>> Andy.
>>>
>> Hi Andy,
>>
>> we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic to
>> show case the features of it.
>> We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
>> that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
>> on it together?
>>
>> regards,
>> Sven
>>
>
>
>

--------------080108000404030404090907
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Andy,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Andy Carpenter wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Sven,

I definitely interested in working with you (and others) on Emfatic
tooling. My motivation is to enable some laboratory exercises for
students where they develop models with invariants/constraints,
generate code from the models and then use the generated code
to validate instance data. This means that I'm more interested in
simplicity than completeness.
</pre>
</blockquote>
That's cool.&nbsp; Is this current issue holding you up or is just a nit?&nbsp;
I'm very interested in getting more directly involved in this myself.&nbsp;
I'm a bit sick and tired of XML.&nbsp; We could do so much better with
notations focused on ease of human understanding rather than ease of
machine parsing...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
The Ecore tools would have worked, but I felt tat they looked too
like UML tools, which would have meant that students would expect
the capabilities of UML.</pre>
</blockquote>
Time to change their expectations. :-P<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> Also all of the details of constraint annotations
must be seen by the students. </pre>
</blockquote>
The Ecore Tools editor has quite a nice forms-based design for working
with annotations, though they are kind of tucked away as opposed to
Emfatic, where they are a very visible thing very similar to Java 5.0's
annotations.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">With Emfatic the short form of
annotation names spaces can be used and the Ecore constraints
annotation can be added in the Ecore model generation step.
</pre>
</blockquote>
The notation is quite nice...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
(implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
it is saved. </pre>
</blockquote>
It would be quite cool if the base EMF frameworks were more
content-type focused such that they could directly process an Emfatic
resource to extract the Ecore from it.&nbsp; Such things should be possible,
but will take some time and effort...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.
</pre>
</blockquote>
I don't have a good understanding yet of how direct changes to the
Ecore might be feed back to the Emfatic.&nbsp; I wonder if we should be
providing an importer and even an exporter much like we have for UML
and XSD...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
The state of support for the Emfatic language is that includes
are not supported, the parsing of generic syntax needs checking,
any instance class name that is not a simple identifier must be put
into quotes and a couple of other minor issues.
</pre>
</blockquote>
All the things that were added in EMF 2.3 need attention...&nbsp; That's
even true for the Ecore Tools editor...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
How would you like to take any joint work forward?
</pre>
</blockquote>
That's a very good question.&nbsp; I'd like to get actively involved in this
myself as well.&nbsp; But I don't know much of anything about Xtext yet and
I don't have a good understanding of the current code base.&nbsp; I was
hoping to have time to start on my learning in October when I'll get a
chance to travel to Germany...<br>
<br>
Are you patient enough to wait that long?&nbsp; It would be great to have
more interested and active parties...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Andy.

"Sven Efftinge" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sven@efftinge.de">&lt;sven@efftinge.de&gt;</a> wrote in message
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org">news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org</a>...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Andy Carpenter schrieb:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"Ed Merks" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Ed.Merks@gmail.com">&lt;Ed.Merks@gmail.com&gt;</a> wrote in message
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org">news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org</a>...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dimitrios,

I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a
bugzilla...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).

Andy.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Hi Andy,

we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic to
show case the features of it.
We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
on it together?

regards,
Sven
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->

</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--------------080108000404030404090907--
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #129516 is a reply to message #129492] Wed, 03 September 2008 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: sven.efftinge.de

Hi Ed, hi Andy,

>> So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
>> (implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
>> generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
>> it is saved.
> It would be quite cool if the base EMF frameworks were more content-type
> focused such that they could directly process an Emfatic resource to
> extract the Ecore from it. Such things should be possible, but will
> take some time and effort...

With an Xtext implementation a specific ResourceFactory would be
registered, so that you cannot tell whether the format orginally was xmi
or emfatic (besides that the URI has a different file extension, of course).

>> This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
>> that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
>> menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.
>>
> I don't have a good understanding yet of how direct changes to the Ecore
> might be feed back to the Emfatic. I wonder if we should be providing
> an importer and even an exporter much like we have for UML and XSD...

The Resource implementation generated by Xtext also provides saving
models. So it fully supports the Resource interface.

>> How would you like to take any joint work forward?
>>
> That's a very good question. I'd like to get actively involved in this
> myself as well. But I don't know much of anything about Xtext yet and I
> don't have a good understanding of the current code base. I was hoping
> to have time to start on my learning in October when I'll get a chance
> to travel to Germany...

Yes, this is great. We still need some weeks to fix some things in
Xtext. So October sould be a good starting date.

Sven
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #129539 is a reply to message #129492] Thu, 04 September 2008 09:01 Go to previous message
Andy Carpenter is currently offline Andy CarpenterFriend
Messages: 145
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi

"Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9m485$hme$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Andy,
>
> Comments below.
>
> Andy Carpenter wrote:
>> Hi Sven,
>>
>> I definitely interested in working with you (and others) on Emfatic
>> tooling. My motivation is to enable some laboratory exercises for
>> students where they develop models with invariants/constraints,
>> generate code from the models and then use the generated code
>> to validate instance data. This means that I'm more interested in
>> simplicity than completeness.
>>
> That's cool. Is this current issue holding you up or is just a nit?
> I'm very interested in getting more directly involved in this myself.
> I'm a bit sick and tired of XML. We could do so much better with
> notations focused on ease of human understanding rather than ease of
> machine parsing...

No I'm not heldup. I now have in place all of the software that
I need for simple student exercises.

>> The Ecore tools would have worked, but I felt tat they looked too
>> like UML tools, which would have meant that students would expect
>> the capabilities of UML.
> Time to change their expectations. :-P
>> Also all of the details of constraint annotations
>> must be seen by the students.
> The Ecore Tools editor has quite a nice forms-based design for working
> with annotations, though they are kind of tucked away as opposed to
> Emfatic, where they are a very visible thing very similar to Java 5.0's
> annotations.

Having spent some years working with ISO 10303 STEP EXPRESS,
my preference is for textual input.

>> With Emfatic the short form of
>> annotation names spaces can be used and the Ecore constraints
>> annotation can be added in the Ecore model generation step.
>>
> The notation is quite nice...
>> So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
>> (implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
>> generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
>> it is saved.
> It would be quite cool if the base EMF frameworks were more content-type
> focused such that they could directly process an Emfatic resource to
> extract the Ecore from it. Such things should be possible, but will
> take some time and effort...
>> This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
>> that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
>> menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.
>>
> I don't have a good understanding yet of how direct changes to the Ecore
> might be feed back to the Emfatic. I wonder if we should be providing
> an importer and even an exporter much like we have for UML and XSD...
>> The state of support for the Emfatic language is that includes
>> are not supported, the parsing of generic syntax needs checking,
>> any instance class name that is not a simple identifier must be put
>> into quotes and a couple of other minor issues.
>>
> All the things that were added in EMF 2.3 need attention... That's even
> true for the Ecore Tools editor...
>> How would you like to take any joint work forward?
>>
> That's a very good question. I'd like to get actively involved in this
> myself as well. But I don't know much of anything about Xtext yet and I
> don't have a good understanding of the current code base. I was hoping
> to have time to start on my learning in October when I'll get a chance
> to travel to Germany...
>
> Are you patient enough to wait that long? It would be great to have
> more interested and active parties...

As I say, I'm not currently heldup. So, yes, I can wait that lon.

>> Andy.
>>
>> "Sven Efftinge" <sven@efftinge.de> wrote in message
>> news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org...
>>
>>> Andy Carpenter schrieb:
>>>
>>>> "Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
>>>>
>>>>> Dimitrios,
>>>>>
>>>>> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
>>>>> find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
>>>>> halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a
>>>>> bugzilla...
>>>>>
>>>> I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
>>>> re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).
>>>>
>>>> Andy.
>>>>
>>> Hi Andy,
>>>
>>> we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic
>>> to
>>> show case the features of it.
>>> We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
>>> that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
>>> on it together?
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Sven
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #620281 is a reply to message #128743] Tue, 02 September 2008 11:28 Go to previous message
Dimitrios Kolovos is currently offline Dimitrios KolovosFriend
Messages: 1776
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
Dimitrios

Dimitrios Kolovos wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The old Emfatic tooling (0.0.2) allowed annotations without details e.g.
>
> @ann
> class X {}
>
> The new tooling (CVS version) doesn't allow this any more as the parser
> complains that it expects a ( - with () it doesn't work either as it
> expects an identifier after (.
>
> I suspect that this is a bug as ECore itself allows detail-less
> annotations (or at least the ECore editor doesn't complain about them).
>
> Cheers,
> Dimitrios
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #620282 is a reply to message #129321] Tue, 02 September 2008 11:57 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 30996
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Dimitrios,

I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a bugzilla...


Dimitrios Kolovos wrote:
> Any thoughts on this?
>
> Cheers,
> Dimitrios
>
> Dimitrios Kolovos wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The old Emfatic tooling (0.0.2) allowed annotations without details e.g.
>>
>> @ann
>> class X {}
>>
>> The new tooling (CVS version) doesn't allow this any more as the
>> parser complains that it expects a ( - with () it doesn't work either
>> as it expects an identifier after (.
>>
>> I suspect that this is a bug as ECore itself allows detail-less
>> annotations (or at least the ECore editor doesn't complain about them).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dimitrios
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #620290 is a reply to message #129334] Tue, 02 September 2008 19:24 Go to previous message
Andy Carpenter is currently offline Andy CarpenterFriend
Messages: 145
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
> Dimitrios,
>
> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can find
> some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a halt.
> It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a bugzilla...

I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).

Andy.
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #620291 is a reply to message #129442] Wed, 03 September 2008 06:25 Go to previous message
Sven Efftinge is currently offline Sven EfftingeFriend
Messages: 1823
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Andy Carpenter schrieb:
> "Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
>> Dimitrios,
>>
>> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can find
>> some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a halt.
>> It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a bugzilla...
>
> I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
> re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).
>
> Andy.
>

Hi Andy,

we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic
to show case the features of it.
We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
on it together?

regards,
Sven
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #620293 is a reply to message #129455] Wed, 03 September 2008 08:46 Go to previous message
Andy Carpenter is currently offline Andy CarpenterFriend
Messages: 145
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Sven,

I definitely interested in working with you (and others) on Emfatic
tooling. My motivation is to enable some laboratory exercises for
students where they develop models with invariants/constraints,
generate code from the models and then use the generated code
to validate instance data. This means that I'm more interested in
simplicity than completeness.

The Ecore tools would have worked, but I felt tat they looked too
like UML tools, which would have meant that students would expect
the capabilities of UML. Also all of the details of constraint annotations
must be seen by the students. With Emfatic the short form of
annotation names spaces can be used and the Ecore constraints
annotation can be added in the Ecore model generation step.

So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
(implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
it is saved. This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.

The state of support for the Emfatic language is that includes
are not supported, the parsing of generic syntax needs checking,
any instance class name that is not a simple identifier must be put
into quotes and a couple of other minor issues.

How would you like to take any joint work forward?

Andy.

"Sven Efftinge" <sven@efftinge.de> wrote in message
news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Andy Carpenter schrieb:
>> "Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
>>> Dimitrios,
>>>
>>> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
>>> find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
>>> halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a
>>> bugzilla...
>>
>> I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
>> re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).
>>
>> Andy.
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic to
> show case the features of it.
> We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
> that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
> on it together?
>
> regards,
> Sven
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #620294 is a reply to message #129480] Wed, 03 September 2008 13:42 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 30996
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080108000404030404090907
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Andy,

Comments below.

Andy Carpenter wrote:
> Hi Sven,
>
> I definitely interested in working with you (and others) on Emfatic
> tooling. My motivation is to enable some laboratory exercises for
> students where they develop models with invariants/constraints,
> generate code from the models and then use the generated code
> to validate instance data. This means that I'm more interested in
> simplicity than completeness.
>
That's cool. Is this current issue holding you up or is just a nit?
I'm very interested in getting more directly involved in this myself.
I'm a bit sick and tired of XML. We could do so much better with
notations focused on ease of human understanding rather than ease of
machine parsing...
> The Ecore tools would have worked, but I felt tat they looked too
> like UML tools, which would have meant that students would expect
> the capabilities of UML.
Time to change their expectations. :-P
> Also all of the details of constraint annotations
> must be seen by the students.
The Ecore Tools editor has quite a nice forms-based design for working
with annotations, though they are kind of tucked away as opposed to
Emfatic, where they are a very visible thing very similar to Java 5.0's
annotations.
> With Emfatic the short form of
> annotation names spaces can be used and the Ecore constraints
> annotation can be added in the Ecore model generation step.
>
The notation is quite nice...
> So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
> (implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
> generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
> it is saved.
It would be quite cool if the base EMF frameworks were more content-type
focused such that they could directly process an Emfatic resource to
extract the Ecore from it. Such things should be possible, but will
take some time and effort...
> This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
> that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
> menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.
>
I don't have a good understanding yet of how direct changes to the Ecore
might be feed back to the Emfatic. I wonder if we should be providing
an importer and even an exporter much like we have for UML and XSD...
> The state of support for the Emfatic language is that includes
> are not supported, the parsing of generic syntax needs checking,
> any instance class name that is not a simple identifier must be put
> into quotes and a couple of other minor issues.
>
All the things that were added in EMF 2.3 need attention... That's even
true for the Ecore Tools editor...
> How would you like to take any joint work forward?
>
That's a very good question. I'd like to get actively involved in this
myself as well. But I don't know much of anything about Xtext yet and I
don't have a good understanding of the current code base. I was hoping
to have time to start on my learning in October when I'll get a chance
to travel to Germany...

Are you patient enough to wait that long? It would be great to have
more interested and active parties...
> Andy.
>
> "Sven Efftinge" <sven@efftinge.de> wrote in message
> news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org...
>
>> Andy Carpenter schrieb:
>>
>>> "Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>> Dimitrios,
>>>>
>>>> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
>>>> find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
>>>> halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a
>>>> bugzilla...
>>>>
>>> I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
>>> re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).
>>>
>>> Andy.
>>>
>> Hi Andy,
>>
>> we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic to
>> show case the features of it.
>> We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
>> that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
>> on it together?
>>
>> regards,
>> Sven
>>
>
>
>

--------------080108000404030404090907
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Andy,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Andy Carpenter wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Sven,

I definitely interested in working with you (and others) on Emfatic
tooling. My motivation is to enable some laboratory exercises for
students where they develop models with invariants/constraints,
generate code from the models and then use the generated code
to validate instance data. This means that I'm more interested in
simplicity than completeness.
</pre>
</blockquote>
That's cool.&nbsp; Is this current issue holding you up or is just a nit?&nbsp;
I'm very interested in getting more directly involved in this myself.&nbsp;
I'm a bit sick and tired of XML.&nbsp; We could do so much better with
notations focused on ease of human understanding rather than ease of
machine parsing...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
The Ecore tools would have worked, but I felt tat they looked too
like UML tools, which would have meant that students would expect
the capabilities of UML.</pre>
</blockquote>
Time to change their expectations. :-P<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> Also all of the details of constraint annotations
must be seen by the students. </pre>
</blockquote>
The Ecore Tools editor has quite a nice forms-based design for working
with annotations, though they are kind of tucked away as opposed to
Emfatic, where they are a very visible thing very similar to Java 5.0's
annotations.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">With Emfatic the short form of
annotation names spaces can be used and the Ecore constraints
annotation can be added in the Ecore model generation step.
</pre>
</blockquote>
The notation is quite nice...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
(implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
it is saved. </pre>
</blockquote>
It would be quite cool if the base EMF frameworks were more
content-type focused such that they could directly process an Emfatic
resource to extract the Ecore from it.&nbsp; Such things should be possible,
but will take some time and effort...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.
</pre>
</blockquote>
I don't have a good understanding yet of how direct changes to the
Ecore might be feed back to the Emfatic.&nbsp; I wonder if we should be
providing an importer and even an exporter much like we have for UML
and XSD...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
The state of support for the Emfatic language is that includes
are not supported, the parsing of generic syntax needs checking,
any instance class name that is not a simple identifier must be put
into quotes and a couple of other minor issues.
</pre>
</blockquote>
All the things that were added in EMF 2.3 need attention...&nbsp; That's
even true for the Ecore Tools editor...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
How would you like to take any joint work forward?
</pre>
</blockquote>
That's a very good question.&nbsp; I'd like to get actively involved in this
myself as well.&nbsp; But I don't know much of anything about Xtext yet and
I don't have a good understanding of the current code base.&nbsp; I was
hoping to have time to start on my learning in October when I'll get a
chance to travel to Germany...<br>
<br>
Are you patient enough to wait that long?&nbsp; It would be great to have
more interested and active parties...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:g9ljal$ref$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Andy.

"Sven Efftinge" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sven@efftinge.de">&lt;sven@efftinge.de&gt;</a> wrote in message
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org">news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org</a>...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Andy Carpenter schrieb:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"Ed Merks" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Ed.Merks@gmail.com">&lt;Ed.Merks@gmail.com&gt;</a> wrote in message
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org">news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org</a>...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dimitrios,

I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a
bugzilla...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).

Andy.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Hi Andy,

we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic to
show case the features of it.
We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
on it together?

regards,
Sven
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->

</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--------------080108000404030404090907--
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #620296 is a reply to message #129492] Wed, 03 September 2008 15:16 Go to previous message
Sven Efftinge is currently offline Sven EfftingeFriend
Messages: 1823
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Ed, hi Andy,

>> So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
>> (implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
>> generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
>> it is saved.
> It would be quite cool if the base EMF frameworks were more content-type
> focused such that they could directly process an Emfatic resource to
> extract the Ecore from it. Such things should be possible, but will
> take some time and effort...

With an Xtext implementation a specific ResourceFactory would be
registered, so that you cannot tell whether the format orginally was xmi
or emfatic (besides that the URI has a different file extension, of course).

>> This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
>> that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
>> menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.
>>
> I don't have a good understanding yet of how direct changes to the Ecore
> might be feed back to the Emfatic. I wonder if we should be providing
> an importer and even an exporter much like we have for UML and XSD...

The Resource implementation generated by Xtext also provides saving
models. So it fully supports the Resource interface.

>> How would you like to take any joint work forward?
>>
> That's a very good question. I'd like to get actively involved in this
> myself as well. But I don't know much of anything about Xtext yet and I
> don't have a good understanding of the current code base. I was hoping
> to have time to start on my learning in October when I'll get a chance
> to travel to Germany...

Yes, this is great. We still need some weeks to fix some things in
Xtext. So October sould be a good starting date.

Sven
Re: [Emfatic] Detail-less annotations [message #620298 is a reply to message #129492] Thu, 04 September 2008 09:01 Go to previous message
Andy Carpenter is currently offline Andy CarpenterFriend
Messages: 145
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi

"Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9m485$hme$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Andy,
>
> Comments below.
>
> Andy Carpenter wrote:
>> Hi Sven,
>>
>> I definitely interested in working with you (and others) on Emfatic
>> tooling. My motivation is to enable some laboratory exercises for
>> students where they develop models with invariants/constraints,
>> generate code from the models and then use the generated code
>> to validate instance data. This means that I'm more interested in
>> simplicity than completeness.
>>
> That's cool. Is this current issue holding you up or is just a nit?
> I'm very interested in getting more directly involved in this myself.
> I'm a bit sick and tired of XML. We could do so much better with
> notations focused on ease of human understanding rather than ease of
> machine parsing...

No I'm not heldup. I now have in place all of the software that
I need for simple student exercises.

>> The Ecore tools would have worked, but I felt tat they looked too
>> like UML tools, which would have meant that students would expect
>> the capabilities of UML.
> Time to change their expectations. :-P
>> Also all of the details of constraint annotations
>> must be seen by the students.
> The Ecore Tools editor has quite a nice forms-based design for working
> with annotations, though they are kind of tucked away as opposed to
> Emfatic, where they are a very visible thing very similar to Java 5.0's
> annotations.

Having spent some years working with ISO 10303 STEP EXPRESS,
my preference is for textual input.

>> With Emfatic the short form of
>> annotation names spaces can be used and the Ecore constraints
>> annotation can be added in the Ecore model generation step.
>>
> The notation is quite nice...
>> So far I have an Emfatic nature and incremental project builder
>> (implemented as a TCS injection and ATL transformation) that
>> generates an ecore model version of a valid Emfatic file when
>> it is saved.
> It would be quite cool if the base EMF frameworks were more content-type
> focused such that they could directly process an Emfatic resource to
> extract the Ecore from it. Such things should be possible, but will
> take some time and effort...
>> This is supported by an Emfatic file creation wizard
>> that sets the Emfatic nature on the enclosing project, and a
>> menu item to toggle the Emfatic nature.
>>
> I don't have a good understanding yet of how direct changes to the Ecore
> might be feed back to the Emfatic. I wonder if we should be providing
> an importer and even an exporter much like we have for UML and XSD...
>> The state of support for the Emfatic language is that includes
>> are not supported, the parsing of generic syntax needs checking,
>> any instance class name that is not a simple identifier must be put
>> into quotes and a couple of other minor issues.
>>
> All the things that were added in EMF 2.3 need attention... That's even
> true for the Ecore Tools editor...
>> How would you like to take any joint work forward?
>>
> That's a very good question. I'd like to get actively involved in this
> myself as well. But I don't know much of anything about Xtext yet and I
> don't have a good understanding of the current code base. I was hoping
> to have time to start on my learning in October when I'll get a chance
> to travel to Germany...
>
> Are you patient enough to wait that long? It would be great to have
> more interested and active parties...

As I say, I'm not currently heldup. So, yes, I can wait that lon.

>> Andy.
>>
>> "Sven Efftinge" <sven@efftinge.de> wrote in message
>> news:g9lakf$nks$1@build.eclipse.org...
>>
>>> Andy Carpenter schrieb:
>>>
>>>> "Ed Merks" <Ed.Merks@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:g9j9n8$uth$2@build.eclipse.org...
>>>>
>>>>> Dimitrios,
>>>>>
>>>>> I need to find folks who will actively work on Efmatic. Maybe I can
>>>>> find some time personally. Right now, things have kind of ground to a
>>>>> halt. It does sound like a bug to me so you may as well open a
>>>>> bugzilla...
>>>>>
>>>> I'd be interested in working on Emfatic. If so, long term I'd like to
>>>> re-implement it using TCS (we have a prototype version of this).
>>>>
>>>> Andy.
>>>>
>>> Hi Andy,
>>>
>>> we (Xtext developers) are also working on an implementation of EMFatic
>>> to
>>> show case the features of it.
>>> We thought it would be a good example to be shipped with Xtext, but now
>>> that we need contributors for the EMFatic component, maybe we could work
>>> on it together?
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Sven
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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