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Forum participation [message #671705] Wed, 18 May 2011 18:13 Go to next message
Steve Blackwell is currently offline Steve BlackwellFriend
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2011
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Are there any developers who monitor this forum or is it just users trying to help each other?

I have posted a couple of messages, filed a bug and made an offer to help over the last week any have received only one reply from a fellow user trying to help. Perhaps this is normal? Should I expect to wait 2 or 3 weeks for responses?

Looking back over past forum messages, I see many that never get an answer. This is guarenteed to dissuade users from adopting Papyrus. Is there a project leader, a project coordinator, or similar that we can contact?

As it stands right now, with basic deficiencies (yes, I know it is still in the incubation stage), no useful documentation and very limited user support, I am hesitant to invest too much time into learning this tool. Is Papyrus going the way of UML2? I'd be very happy if someone can tell me otherwise.

Steve
Re: Forum participation [message #671866 is a reply to message #671705] Thu, 19 May 2011 08:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Valerian Merkling is currently offline Valerian MerklingFriend
Messages: 71
Registered: May 2011
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Hi Steve !

I don't know either if there is any devs or project leader here, and I don't know why, on the official support forum, no one can answer to apparently easy question like "how connect two port with a port connection?".

The strangest things for me is to see post with 300+ read and no answer.

Right now profile editing is enough for me but soon I will need more customisation, but as you said, with no doc and no support, I don't know if Papyrus is the right choice.

All of that to just say i agree with you.
Re: Forum participation [message #671962 is a reply to message #671866] Thu, 19 May 2011 13:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Neustupny is currently offline Thomas NeustupnyFriend
Messages: 75
Registered: October 2009
Member
At least you can see the developers activities:
http://www.ohloh.net/p/mdt-papyrus
(See code analysis, commits, ...) --> So they are alive!
Re: Forum participation [message #672046 is a reply to message #671962] Thu, 19 May 2011 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Blackwell is currently offline Steve BlackwellFriend
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2011
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Well, at least that's a positive sign. I don't see any way to contact them though. We just need to find someone with the knowledge to answer questions.

Niarkoleptik, Unfortunately, I suspect that the relatively large number of reads is due to bots trawling for e-mial addresses to spam. This is a public list after all. I doubt there are many "real" readers.
Re: Forum participation [message #672047 is a reply to message #671866] Thu, 19 May 2011 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Willink is currently offline Ed WillinkFriend
Messages: 6843
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi
> I don't know either if there is any devs or project leader here,

You'll see a reply from Sebastien Gerard the project leader just 4 days ago.
At times Remi Schnekenburger is quite active.

But I agree that there could be much more response.

I am the OCL project lead so I monitor for OCL issues, and occasionally
comment beyond that arena.

Regards

Ed Willink
Re: Forum participation [message #672078 is a reply to message #672046] Thu, 19 May 2011 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Blackwell is currently offline Steve BlackwellFriend
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2011
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Hi Ed,

I found this link:
http://www.papyrusuml.org/scripts/home/publigen/content/templates/show.asp?P=119&L=EN&ITEMID=33

but I see that your name is not there so it is probably out of date.
Might I sugest a sticky note in this forum that would have such information as (or at least links to):


    who is the forum administrator
    who is responsible for what area,
    a FAQ
    the latest versions
    release notes for each version
    etc, etc

where the information is not available, at least we can say that so people know.

>But I agree that there could be much more response.

OK, so is there anything can we users can do to encourage more response?
Let me reiterate my offer of help.

Steve


Re: Forum participation [message #672095 is a reply to message #672078] Thu, 19 May 2011 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Willink is currently offline Ed WillinkFriend
Messages: 6843
Registered: July 2009
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Hi Steve

On 19/05/2011 20:26, Steve Blackwell wrote:
> Hi Ed,
>
> I found this link:
> http://www.papyrusuml.org/scripts/home/publigen/content/templates/show.asp?P=119&L=EN&ITEMID=33
>
>
> but I see that your name is not there so it is probably out of date.
I think you misunderstood my comment.

I am the project lead for the MDT/OCL project, which is a distinct
project to MDT/Papyrus. I am not a Papyrus developer. I have just helped
provide the integration of the Xtext editor from the OCL project as a
direct editor for constraints on UML diagrams.

Regards

Ed Willink
Re: Forum participation [message #672323 is a reply to message #672095] Fri, 20 May 2011 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Patrick Tessier is currently offline Patrick TessierFriend
Messages: 252
Registered: July 2009
Location: Paris Saclay, France
Senior Member
Hi,
We are alived, but we only are little overloaded. Smile
So I will try to respond to your questions.

Patrick
Papyrus team
Re: Forum participation [message #677061 is a reply to message #672323] Tue, 07 June 2011 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Blackwell is currently offline Steve BlackwellFriend
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2011
Member
Well, that didn't last long.
We got a couple of answers from two developers for a couple of days and now it has gone quiet again. Nothing for over a week. It's one think to say you need to do a better job of monitoring the forum but then you have to actually ->do<- something.
I'm sure you're all very busy and I hate to hassle you but the current situation just isn't working.

Steve
Re: Forum participation [message #677065 is a reply to message #677061] Tue, 07 June 2011 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
I think there is a misunderstanding in this forum between free users expectations and open source way of working.
If you pay then you have the right to complain and ask for quality but if you are a free users of open source then you have no right except to contribute by yourself.
I would say "Help yourself and god will help you".

My today's question is "Do you believe in God" ?

Re: Forum participation [message #677084 is a reply to message #677065] Tue, 07 June 2011 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Valerian Merkling is currently offline Valerian MerklingFriend
Messages: 71
Registered: May 2011
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But any opensource software need users to live.
And users need to be able to USE the software.
If no users know how to use some functionnality of Papyrus, or can't make it work, is it really different from a software that just doesn't have that functionnality?

Papyrus is (in my opinion) great, and seems to be powerful. But if no one can tell me how i can use that power, i'm not going to try to understand sources during hours. Of course i can help myself, but it's going to need lot of time, for somethings that a devs can teach me in 2 lines.

And you speak about free users, but is there paying papyrus users ?
Re: Forum participation [message #677091 is a reply to message #677065] Tue, 07 June 2011 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Blackwell is currently offline Steve BlackwellFriend
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2011
Member
If the developers do not participate the forum or even much in the developers mailing list (most of the messages there are votes), and there are few, if any knowledegable non-developers who can answer questions, what is the point in having a forum or even in having the project be open source?

I am trying to contribute and would like to do more. I have written bugs, made comments, asked for feedback, all with minimal response. I have installed the source but without any developers guides or architecture documentation, it is very difficult to get started.

For instance, I started to look at the Save issue. I found a function called hasDirtyEditors() in the fileDirtyEditorChange.java. This calls editor.isDirty() and editor is a IMultiDiagramEditor type but I can't find the class definition of IMultiDiagramEditor or the code for isDirty() so I'm stuck. I am no java expert so I need some guidance but as I said earlier, I'm hesitent to spend too much time on this if it is going to fall on deaf ears.

The developers themselves have said they need to do a better job of keeping up with the forum. I want to encourage them to follow through.

Steve
Re: Forum participation [message #677145 is a reply to message #677091] Tue, 07 June 2011 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 31478
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Steve,

Comments below.

Steve Blackwell wrote:
> If the developers do not participate the forum or even much in the
> developers mailing list (most of the messages there are votes), and
> there are few, if any knowledegable non-developers who can answer
> questions, what is the point in having a forum or even in having the
> project be open source?
All good questions... It would be nice to see questions answered with
some regularity, but no one is being paid for that, so the motivation
needs to be purely about helping others for the sake of helping others...
>
> I am trying to contribute and would like to do more. I have written
> bugs, made comments, asked for feedback, all with minimal response. I
> have installed the source but without any developers guides or
> architecture documentation, it is very difficult to get started.
Yes, there's just so much source code...
> For instance, I started to look at the Save issue. I found a function
> called hasDirtyEditors() in the fileDirtyEditorChange.java. This calls
> editor.isDirty() and editor is a IMultiDiagramEditor type but I can't
> find the class definition of IMultiDiagramEditor or the code for
> isDirty() so I'm stuck.
It sounds like you're "just" analyzing static source code. I'd strongly
encourage you to do dynamic analysis. I.e., set a breakpoint and see
what's really happening at runtime. Then you'll know exactly which
implementation class is being called. Things like Ctrl-Shift-T to find
a class, looking at the inheritance hierarchy to find implementations of
it, are other useful techniques.
> I am no java expert so I need some guidance but as I said earlier, I'm
> hesitent to spend too much time on this if it is going to fall on deaf
> ears.
When I first started on Eclipse, the folks working on the platform were
the "golden boys" who were protected by what seemed like a "cone of
silence." It was mostly necessary to figure everything out by myself.
I've even managed to poke around JDT to push for a fix to an annoying
Javadoc problem (that messed up EMF's @model annotations). It's
frustrating but where there's a will there's a way.
>
> The developers themselves have said they need to do a better job of
> keeping up with the forum. I want to encourage them to follow through.
Yes, me too. I personally spend a lot of time on the forums helping on
as many as possible. But itemis pays me to make the modeling project
successful so my helpful behavior is encouraged and rewarded. (Formerly
IBM paid me. They'd have preferred I spent less time being so helpful,
but I didn't let that stop me.)
>
> Steve


Ed Merks
Professional Support: https://www.macromodeling.com/
Re: Forum participation [message #677150 is a reply to message #677145] Tue, 07 June 2011 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Blackwell is currently offline Steve BlackwellFriend
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2011
Member
Hi Ed,

>> For instance, I started to look at the Save issue. I found a function
>> called hasDirtyEditors() in the fileDirtyEditorChange.java. This calls
>> editor.isDirty() and editor is a IMultiDiagramEditor type but I can't
>> find the class definition of IMultiDiagramEditor or the code for
>> isDirty() so I'm stuck.
> It sounds like you're "just" analyzing static source code. I'd strongly
> encourage you to do dynamic analysis. I.e., set a breakpoint and see
> what's really happening at runtime. Then you'll know exactly which
> implementation class is being called. Things like Ctrl-Shift-T to find
> a class, looking at the inheritance hierarchy to find implementations of
> it, are other useful techniques.

In order to be able to do dynamic analysis, I would need to be able to build and run the code in debug. Since there are no build instructions (right?), I haven't been able to do that. Project->Build All is greyed out. There is clearly some setup that has to be done.

If anybody has been able to build from SVN, could you write some step-by-step instructions?

Steve
Re: Forum participation [message #677161 is a reply to message #677150] Tue, 07 June 2011 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Willink is currently offline Ed WillinkFriend
Messages: 6843
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Steve

Have you checked the Wiki? If nothing else, with so many Papyrus
committers, they must need instructions that new contributors can use.

If you want to reverse engineer, I would match up with the RC4 release,
hopefully RC4 sources plugins. When I tried, I found many more plugins
than contribute to the code base.

Regards

Ed Willink

On 07/06/2011 18:58, Steve Blackwell wrote:
> Hi Ed,
>
>>> For instance, I started to look at the Save issue. I found a
>>> function called hasDirtyEditors() in the fileDirtyEditorChange.java.
>>> This calls editor.isDirty() and editor is a IMultiDiagramEditor type
>>> but I can't find the class definition of IMultiDiagramEditor or the
>>> code for isDirty() so I'm stuck.
>> It sounds like you're "just" analyzing static source code. I'd
>> strongly encourage you to do dynamic analysis. I.e., set a breakpoint
>> and see what's really happening at runtime. Then you'll know exactly
>> which implementation class is being called. Things like Ctrl-Shift-T
>> to find a class, looking at the inheritance hierarchy to find
>> implementations of it, are other useful techniques.
>
> In order to be able to do dynamic analysis, I would need to be able to
> build and run the code in debug. Since there are no build instructions
> (right?), I haven't been able to do that. Project->Build All is greyed
> out. There is clearly some setup that has to be done.
>
> If anybody has been able to build from SVN, could you write some
> step-by-step instructions?
>
> Steve
Re: Forum participation [message #677323 is a reply to message #677161] Wed, 08 June 2011 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sebastien Gerard is currently offline Sebastien GerardFriend
Messages: 121
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi,

For the developper doc:
- wiki: [url=http://wiki.eclipse.org/Papyrus_Developer_Guide]
- in svn: [url=://dev.eclipse.org/svnroot/modeling/org.eclipse.mdt.papyrus/trunk/doc]

For your compilation pb, may be it is better for you to ask question to PDE forum: [url:http://www.eclipse.org/forums/index.php/f/130/]


Best... S├ębastien (Papyrus project lead)
Re: Forum participation [message #682226 is a reply to message #677323] Fri, 10 June 2011 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Blackwell is currently offline Steve BlackwellFriend
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2011
Member
I have seen the wiki before and I've been back to look at it again.
I was hoping that I would be able to do a little debugging without having to become a Eclipse developer expert, after all, what I really want to do is build models. It appears that I'm going to have to put in a lot more time than I wanted to.

I have found the Platform plug-in Developers Guide (http://help.eclipse.org/indigo/index.jsp) most helpful so far.
Re: Forum participation [message #682266 is a reply to message #677150] Fri, 10 June 2011 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 31478
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Steve,

That's a good point. I'm not sure if Papyrus builds an SDK with source
bundles. If they did, you'd not have to rebuild it to do source-level
debug it. Papyrus really ought to provide an SDK if Papyrus hopes to be
extensible and all Eclipse projects are expected to support
extensibility, not just provide an end-point tool...


Steve Blackwell wrote:
> Hi Ed,
>
>>> For instance, I started to look at the Save issue. I found a
>>> function called hasDirtyEditors() in the fileDirtyEditorChange.java.
>>> This calls editor.isDirty() and editor is a IMultiDiagramEditor type
>>> but I can't find the class definition of IMultiDiagramEditor or the
>>> code for isDirty() so I'm stuck.
>> It sounds like you're "just" analyzing static source code. I'd
>> strongly encourage you to do dynamic analysis. I.e., set a breakpoint
>> and see what's really happening at runtime. Then you'll know exactly
>> which implementation class is being called. Things like Ctrl-Shift-T
>> to find a class, looking at the inheritance hierarchy to find
>> implementations of it, are other useful techniques.
>
> In order to be able to do dynamic analysis, I would need to be able to
> build and run the code in debug. Since there are no build instructions
> (right?), I haven't been able to do that. Project->Build All is greyed
> out. There is clearly some setup that has to be done.
>
> If anybody has been able to build from SVN, could you write some
> step-by-step instructions?
>
> Steve


Ed Merks
Professional Support: https://www.macromodeling.com/
Re: Forum participation [message #682522 is a reply to message #682266] Sat, 11 June 2011 10:45 Go to previous message
Yann Tanguy is currently offline Yann TanguyFriend
Messages: 80
Registered: July 2009
Member
Right, the sources are currently missing from SDK.

348892: [General] Sources are missing from papyrus SDK
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=348892
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