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Why Private Newsgroups? [message #21479] Tue, 19 July 2005 19:24 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: sam.elegantchaos.com

I recently posted to eclipse.newcomer on this subject, triggering a
small (but perfectly formed) discussion.

I am sure it's come up before, and I won't rehash the whole thread here,
but I was simply registing my surprise at the way the various online
discussions in the Eclipse community are organised, and wondering why a
solution couldn't be found which allowed people to choose their
preferred delivery mechanism for the discussion (usenet, mail, web based
archive, rss, etc). It seems to me that it's a matter of personal
preference, and is in no way related to whether you are a 'user' or a
'developer'.

Someone suggested that I post my request again here, so I will:

> Anyway, for what it's worth, consider this a request to
> someone who is in a position to change things, for:
> - merging the mailing lists and newsgroups
> - a mail <--> newsgroup gateway with full class access from either
> side
> - rss feeds for the lists/groups, to allow passive monitoring of the
> discussion
> - public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et al.
> can cache them
>
> I don't want much, do I? ;)
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #21550 is a reply to message #21479] Wed, 20 July 2005 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse Webmaster is currently offline Eclipse Webmaster
Messages: 477220
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Sam,

Thanks for the suggestions. Here are my views:

> consider this a request to
>>someone who is in a position to change things

You are in a position to change things. By submitting this request, you
have already started the process of changing things. I am only in a
position to implement the change you have requested. Yes, it really is
that simple. Now, having said that, in order for me to implement the
change you have requested, I need a couple of things:

Community support. Every request is valid for the requester, but it's
not always valid for everyone. We want as much community support as we
can get for every change request. No one person should have the decision
power to say, "let's use this software instead of Bugzilla because I
don't like Bugzilla". Even when the Eclipse Foundation rolls out changes
requested by the community (redesigning our website, for instance, is a
big community request) we try to get the community involved as much as
we can in implementing the change to make sure we do it right. See
Project Phoenix (http://eclipse.org/phoenix/) for an example of this.

Committer and contributor support. Although they are part of the
community, I see them as being special. Some tools exist specifically
for our committers and contributors: CVS, Mailing lists, Bugzilla, to
name a few. Committers and contributors, as a collectivity, ultimately
decide what tools and services they need to do their work. See the links
below for some examples:

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=87159
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=87918
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=87046
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=74378

Here is an example of a suggestion that I thought was cool, but our
committers and contributors didn't want it:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=92194



> and wondering why a
> solution couldn't be found which allowed people to choose their
> preferred delivery mechanism for the discussion (usenet, mail, web based
> archive, rss, etc).

Easy: because not all the tools employed on our infrastructure support
all the delivery mechanisms you state. Sure, one could argue that we
"should just get rid of [newsgroups|mailing lists|html pages|softwareX]
and replace it with [insert today's buzzword application here]" but,
again, we need community support for the change to happen. And the
bigger the impact on our community, the more support we need for it (for
instance, if you request I write your name in large, red characters on
the eclipse.org main web page -- I can do it, but a lot of people will
need to agree with your request). In the case of your request, I think
the impact is fairly high (keep reading to understand why) so I would
need a fair amount of support from the community before implementing this.




> It seems to me that it's a matter of personal
> preference, and is in no way related to whether you are a 'user' or a
> 'developer'.

From what I observe, the user and the developer are going to have
totally different conversations. Developers will talk about the inner
workings of the code, project plans, development cycles, etc. whereas
users will talk about using the finished product for solutions.

I fear if we combine both mailing lists and newsgroups, developers won't
have the clear, open channel they need to communicate, and they will
take their communication elsewhere (IM, phone, private e-mail, yelling,
morse code, etc). Likewise, Eclipse users who are interested in
solutions-based discussions are likely to be bothered by all the
developer mumbo-jumbo that Class X needs Method Y to do Action Z.


The mailing lists are intended specifically for developers. Low-volume,
easy-to-follow. No solutions, just inner-workings.

Newsgroups are intended for community discussions. Solutions, How Do I,
What happens if, Where can I, etc. Although many developers help out the
community by answering questions, I don't think developers use the
newsgroups to coordinate project plans, release schedules and
development issues.

>>- merging the mailing lists and newsgroups
As explained above, I see a big difference between these two media,
based on the needs of our developers and users.

>>- a mail <--> newsgroup gateway with full class access from either
>>side
As explained above, I see a big difference between these two media,
based on the needs of our developers and users.


>>- rss feeds for the lists/groups, to allow passive monitoring of the
>>discussion
This is a great idea. But if you want my personal opinion, I think RSS
is overrated; If the only reason for creating RSS feeds is for passive
monitoring, I think it's not time well spent. You can currently monitor
a mailing list by subscribing to it; you can even configure your
subscription to only receive daily digests instead of individual
e-mails. Newsgroups are inherently passive: subscribe to the newsgroup
and get the posts when you want them. And I can do all this (and monitor
RSS feeds) within the same application: Mozilla Thunderbird. How
convenient.


>>- public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et al.
>>can cache them
This is also a good idea; however, our current infrastructure doesn't
allow anonymous access to the news server for SPAM protection. This is
not to say it can't be done. However, our mailing lists and newsgroups
are available in HTML format, and they are currently being indexed by
the various search engines.


Thanks again for your request!

Denis



Sam Deane wrote:
> I recently posted to eclipse.newcomer on this subject, triggering a
> small (but perfectly formed) discussion.
>
> I am sure it's come up before, and I won't rehash the whole thread here,
> but I was simply registing my surprise at the way the various online
> discussions in the Eclipse community are organised, and wondering why a
> solution couldn't be found which allowed people to choose their
> preferred delivery mechanism for the discussion (usenet, mail, web based
> archive, rss, etc). It seems to me that it's a matter of personal
> preference, and is in no way related to whether you are a 'user' or a
> 'developer'.
>
> Someone suggested that I post my request again here, so I will:
>
>
>>Anyway, for what it's worth, consider this a request to
>>someone who is in a position to change things, for:
>>- merging the mailing lists and newsgroups
>>- a mail <--> newsgroup gateway with full class access from either
>>side
>>- rss feeds for the lists/groups, to allow passive monitoring of the
>>discussion
>>- public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et al.
>>can cache them
>>
>>I don't want much, do I? ;)
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #22005 is a reply to message #21550] Tue, 26 July 2005 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: sam.elegantchaos.com

> Easy: because not all the tools employed on our infrastructure support
> all the delivery mechanisms you state.

Well, the technologies involved are all quite simple, and the problems
have all been tackled before elsewhere, so gateways could easily be put
in place without messing with your existing infrastructure.

I take the point about community support though - if enough people want
it, I guess it'll happen. I've asked the question, and there's not much
response so I guess not enough people care - so be it.

> From what I observe, the user and the developer are going to have
> totally different conversations. Developers will talk about the inner
> workings of the code, project plans, development cycles, etc. whereas
> users will talk about using the finished product for solutions.

I think you've missed my point. I agree that developers and users will
have different discussions, and I'm not suggesting that their actual
mailing lists and newsgroups be merged. What I'm saying is that the list
of discussions, and the list of delivery mechanisms, are orthogonal. You
can have discussions which are developer focussed and discussions that
are user focussed, but there's no solid logic for putting one kind of
discussion exclusively on email and the other one exclusively on
newsgroups. A very simple naming convention could be used to indicate
the developer/user focus of each discussion.

> This is a great idea. But if you want my personal opinion, I think RSS
> is overrated;

You are entitled to your opinion ;)


>>>>- public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et
>>>al. >can cache them
> This is also a good idea; however, our current infrastructure doesn't
> allow anonymous access to the news server for SPAM protection. This is
> not to say it can't be done. However, our mailing lists and newsgroups
> are available in HTML format, and they are currently being indexed by
> the various search engines.

Indexing by Google is not the same as by Google Groups. Google groups
makes it much easier to focus a search onto a particular group, and also
gives you tools which allow you to monitor a particular thread, receive
notifications when new posts occur, etc. In fact, if proper Google
Groups support was implemented, most of my other requests could be
achieved via Groups itself.
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #30765 is a reply to message #22005] Thu, 02 March 2006 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: t b u s s . S e r e n a . c o m

I would like to second the request for something better when it comes to
newsgroups and mailing lists. I'm less clear on what that should be. It is
possible that my particular issue might be solved without going to the
lengths suggested by Sam Deane so I'm looking for suggestions.

The issue for us is that the default behviour for Eclipse project newsgroup
is to forward any post to the primary mailing list for the project.
Unfortunately, there is no obvious way to know if the post is from the
mailing list or from the newsgroup. Consequently, since most people work
with email all day, most people answer the post from the mailing list
rather than taking the trouble to go see if the post came from the newsgroup
and answering it there. This tendency negates much of what differentiates
the newsgroup from the mailing list - basicaly long running threads of
conversation that are commonly accessible (such as my post here) since the
thread dies in the newsgroup.

Possibly there is a easy configuration that would address this. I'd love to
know if there is or how others have dealt with it.

A more sophisticated solution would be to introduce a Message Board such as
used by many online interest groups. While they also have their
difficulties they address this and other issues (browsing fex) making the
"newsgroup" experiance more valuable.

Thanks
Tim Buss
ALF project


"Sam Deane" <sam@elegantchaos.com> wrote in message
news:20050726120117363+0100@news.eclipse.org...
> > Easy: because not all the tools employed on our infrastructure support
> > all the delivery mechanisms you state.
>
> Well, the technologies involved are all quite simple, and the problems
> have all been tackled before elsewhere, so gateways could easily be put
> in place without messing with your existing infrastructure.
>
> I take the point about community support though - if enough people want
> it, I guess it'll happen. I've asked the question, and there's not much
> response so I guess not enough people care - so be it.
>
> > From what I observe, the user and the developer are going to have
> > totally different conversations. Developers will talk about the inner
> > workings of the code, project plans, development cycles, etc. whereas
> > users will talk about using the finished product for solutions.
>
> I think you've missed my point. I agree that developers and users will
> have different discussions, and I'm not suggesting that their actual
> mailing lists and newsgroups be merged. What I'm saying is that the list
> of discussions, and the list of delivery mechanisms, are orthogonal. You
> can have discussions which are developer focussed and discussions that
> are user focussed, but there's no solid logic for putting one kind of
> discussion exclusively on email and the other one exclusively on
> newsgroups. A very simple naming convention could be used to indicate
> the developer/user focus of each discussion.
>
> > This is a great idea. But if you want my personal opinion, I think RSS
> > is overrated;
>
> You are entitled to your opinion ;)
>
>
> >>>>- public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et
> >>>al. >can cache them
> > This is also a good idea; however, our current infrastructure doesn't
> > allow anonymous access to the news server for SPAM protection. This is
> > not to say it can't be done. However, our mailing lists and newsgroups
> > are available in HTML format, and they are currently being indexed by
> > the various search engines.
>
> Indexing by Google is not the same as by Google Groups. Google groups
> makes it much easier to focus a search onto a particular group, and also
> gives you tools which allow you to monitor a particular thread, receive
> notifications when new posts occur, etc. In fact, if proper Google
> Groups support was implemented, most of my other requests could be
> achieved via Groups itself.
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #30799 is a reply to message #30765] Thu, 02 March 2006 23:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: alex_blewitt.yahoo.com

------=_Part_5220_13629768.1141341021918
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I'm sure that it's not going to come as a surprise to anyone here, but EclipseZone (where I'm posting this from) is a web-based view onto the Eclipse newsgroups. Apart from anything else, it lets me listen/post/mark as read all the newsgroups that I read, and I can then clear the stack so that I can immediately see what's been changed. If any additions are made to the topics, they get brought up to the top again.

They also provide RSS feeds for the newsgroups. I don't know how good they are (or even whether they work :-) but I find the web-based interface that keeps track of which ones I've read and which ones I've not much easier than a RSS reader (and I do like RSS and use it a lot, though Atom is obviously superior ;-)

Anyhoo, have a butch at this thread at EclipseZone at:

http://www.eclipsezone.com/eclipse/forums/m91995517.html#919 95517

You don't get to see the messages being marked as read or new content unless you register but you're more likely to get spammed by me about the equals() method than you are from EZ directly :-)

I've attached a screenshot of the UI to show you. The grey blobs are the ones I've either read (or marked as read); the red blobs are new content and the half-white/half-red blob (Clean up warnings with the restriction supression flag) is one that I've read before, but someone else has just replied to it. The ones with binoculars are ones that I'm watching, almost certainl becuase those are the ones I've posted about in the last 30 mins or so.

As you can see, I picked this up from the Eclipse Foundation just out of curiosity, but I don't subscribe to the newsgroup.

Here's an RSS feed for everything on EclipseZone:

http://www.eclipsezone.com/rss/rssmessages.jspa?categoryID=5 605

and, if you care, the one for the foundation news group:

http://www.eclipsezone.com/forumRSS/18159.xml

Hope that's helpful, but IMHO the web based interface is a good way of picking up stuff. It's the same host as JavaLobby, so if you've got an account there you can use it to log onto EclipseZone.

Disclaimer: I'm nothing really to do with EclipseZone. I just use it a lot.

Alex.
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Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #30834 is a reply to message #21550] Thu, 02 March 2006 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: alex_blewitt.yahoo.com

Denis,

I'm not disagreeing with your observations. However, RSS (or its superior cousin Atom) is a relatively painless thing to create. Have a look at http://www.atomenabled.org and look at the developers information; there's an atom feed there. You can even read my blog for an example of an Atom feed :-)

Never the less, it's a preferred way of working for some people. I for one would not go back to a newsreader now. They're pretty primative, and RSS allows me to subscribe to far more and varied sites than I would do if there were lots of e-mails coming in.

There's also a slight difference in the way that people use these things. I tend to have an e-mail client open all the time, and if an e-mail comes in, I tend to go and look at it straight away, which hits my productivity. (In fact, when I'm being really productive, it's often because I have closed my e-mail client :-) RSS readers on the other hand either stay closed until I need them (and then it picks up the feeds then and there), or are aggregated via something like Google Reader and I can symphon them off in my spare time.

In any case, like Subversion, it's a tool which is being used by an increasing number of people both in the Eclipse world and also in the wider IT community. It may not be right for you personally, but it's right for more than just one other person in the outside world.

Anyway, this is mostly a +1 for the feature, rather than any specific dig, because Atom is on the up and it's one to be aware of. I've got an atom feed of outsanding bugs, for example, and if anyone makes a comment on it, I get a notificaiton. You wouldn't set up one newsgroup per bug (or bug category), and you wouldn't want to send changes to all bugs to one newsgroup; but an RSS/Atom view canbe dynamically calculated based on the individual bug ID or category (or flavour, or priority, or based on the number of +1s in the comments ...) so it gives the power to the user of which items they want to see, instead of being served everything and being told to take your pick like a newsgroup.

BTW you're doing a great job, and I know you have to prioritise things. Given that EclipseZone provides a web-based interface and RSS feed, you might just want to point people there in the future. They've got the ability to search on a forum-by-forum basis, too, which is easier than a google search. You can even get a firefox search engine to plug in :-)

Alex.
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #30972 is a reply to message #30765] Fri, 03 March 2006 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse Webmaster is currently offline Eclipse Webmaster
Messages: 477220
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
> The issue for us is that the default behviour for Eclipse project newsgroup
> is to forward any post to the primary mailing list for the project.

This is only try of the *ALF* project, as it's not the way we configure
our lists/groups by default. We find that confusing as well.

However, Brian Carroll had already brought this to our attention last
week, and on Feb. 26 I replied this:

Hi Brian,

The alf-dev mailing list is current set to e-mail a copy of all the ALF
newsgroup postings to the list. This is not the default behaviour, but
after reading the link below, I'm wondering if someone might have
requested this setup?

http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/alf-dev/msg00048.html

I was unable to traceback any such request, so if you want the alf-dev
mailing list to *not* e-mail newsgroup postings, let me know and we'll
remove this.

Denis

>> EOM

I never got a reply back, so no action was taken.

I just disconnected the ALF newsgroup and mailing list, as it's obvious
now that this is not what you team wants. It should be clear now what
channels your community uses to communicate.

Denis


> Unfortunately, there is no obvious way to know if the post is from the
> mailing list or from the newsgroup. Consequently, since most people work
> with email all day, most people answer the post from the mailing list
> rather than taking the trouble to go see if the post came from the newsgroup
> and answering it there. This tendency negates much of what differentiates
> the newsgroup from the mailing list - basicaly long running threads of
> conversation that are commonly accessible (such as my post here) since the
> thread dies in the newsgroup.
>
> Possibly there is a easy configuration that would address this. I'd love to
> know if there is or how others have dealt with it.
>
> A more sophisticated solution would be to introduce a Message Board such as
> used by many online interest groups. While they also have their
> difficulties they address this and other issues (browsing fex) making the
> "newsgroup" experiance more valuable.
>
> Thanks
> Tim Buss
> ALF project
>
>
> "Sam Deane" <sam@elegantchaos.com> wrote in message
> news:20050726120117363+0100@news.eclipse.org...
>
>>>Easy: because not all the tools employed on our infrastructure support
>>>all the delivery mechanisms you state.
>>
>>Well, the technologies involved are all quite simple, and the problems
>>have all been tackled before elsewhere, so gateways could easily be put
>>in place without messing with your existing infrastructure.
>>
>>I take the point about community support though - if enough people want
>>it, I guess it'll happen. I've asked the question, and there's not much
>>response so I guess not enough people care - so be it.
>>
>>
>>> From what I observe, the user and the developer are going to have
>>>totally different conversations. Developers will talk about the inner
>>>workings of the code, project plans, development cycles, etc. whereas
>>>users will talk about using the finished product for solutions.
>>
>>I think you've missed my point. I agree that developers and users will
>>have different discussions, and I'm not suggesting that their actual
>>mailing lists and newsgroups be merged. What I'm saying is that the list
>>of discussions, and the list of delivery mechanisms, are orthogonal. You
>>can have discussions which are developer focussed and discussions that
>>are user focussed, but there's no solid logic for putting one kind of
>>discussion exclusively on email and the other one exclusively on
>>newsgroups. A very simple naming convention could be used to indicate
>>the developer/user focus of each discussion.
>>
>>
>>>This is a great idea. But if you want my personal opinion, I think RSS
>>>is overrated;
>>
>>You are entitled to your opinion ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>- public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et
>>>>>
>>>>>al. >can cache them
>>>
>>>This is also a good idea; however, our current infrastructure doesn't
>>>allow anonymous access to the news server for SPAM protection. This is
>>>not to say it can't be done. However, our mailing lists and newsgroups
>>>are available in HTML format, and they are currently being indexed by
>>>the various search engines.
>>
>>Indexing by Google is not the same as by Google Groups. Google groups
>>makes it much easier to focus a search onto a particular group, and also
>>gives you tools which allow you to monitor a particular thread, receive
>>notifications when new posts occur, etc. In fact, if proper Google
>>Groups support was implemented, most of my other requests could be
>>achieved via Groups itself.
>
>
>

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Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #31112 is a reply to message #30972] Mon, 06 March 2006 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: t b u s s . S e r e n a . c o m

Thanks for the update and taking the action. The newsgroup and mailing list
have been set up that way since the beginning and we had believed, until
now, that it was the standard configuration. Guess we should have asked.

So separating them removes the confusion as to what goes where but now we
have to check two places to know if there is something that needs responding
to. Far from ideal.

I didn't see any way I could get a digest or a forward of posts from the
newsgroup in a way that would make it obvious that the message comes from
newsgroup. That would at least provide an alert and save things from
getting stale. Maybe I missed something. Is there a way taht can be done?

Just to bang the drum one more time, I think a web based Forum/message board
would be a much more effective tool here. The ones I've used allow one to
subscribe to threads, automatically subscribe if you reply, and provide
digests of new posts with various options for each "newgroup" in the message
board etc. There seem to be quite a few Open Source options available.
http://www.thinkofit.com/webconf/forumsoft.htm#freeware
Anyway just a thought. I'm not that familiar with RSS feeds, atom and the
like so I don't know what they get you.

Thanks,
Tim


"Eclipse WebMaster (Denis Roy)" <webmaster@eclipse.org> wrote in message
news:dua20h$7df$1@utils.eclipse.org...
> > The issue for us is that the default behviour for Eclipse project
newsgroup
> > is to forward any post to the primary mailing list for the project.
>
> This is only try of the *ALF* project, as it's not the way we configure
> our lists/groups by default. We find that confusing as well.
>
> However, Brian Carroll had already brought this to our attention last
> week, and on Feb. 26 I replied this:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> The alf-dev mailing list is current set to e-mail a copy of all the ALF
> newsgroup postings to the list. This is not the default behaviour, but
> after reading the link below, I'm wondering if someone might have
> requested this setup?
>
> http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/alf-dev/msg00048.html
>
> I was unable to traceback any such request, so if you want the alf-dev
> mailing list to *not* e-mail newsgroup postings, let me know and we'll
> remove this.
>
> Denis
>
> >> EOM
>
> I never got a reply back, so no action was taken.
>
> I just disconnected the ALF newsgroup and mailing list, as it's obvious
> now that this is not what you team wants. It should be clear now what
> channels your community uses to communicate.
>
> Denis
>
>
> > Unfortunately, there is no obvious way to know if the post is from the
> > mailing list or from the newsgroup. Consequently, since most people
work
> > with email all day, most people answer the post from the mailing list
> > rather than taking the trouble to go see if the post came from the
newsgroup
> > and answering it there. This tendency negates much of what
differentiates
> > the newsgroup from the mailing list - basicaly long running threads of
> > conversation that are commonly accessible (such as my post here) since
the
> > thread dies in the newsgroup.
> >
> > Possibly there is a easy configuration that would address this. I'd
love to
> > know if there is or how others have dealt with it.
> >
> > A more sophisticated solution would be to introduce a Message Board such
as
> > used by many online interest groups. While they also have their
> > difficulties they address this and other issues (browsing fex) making
the
> > "newsgroup" experiance more valuable.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Tim Buss
> > ALF project
> >
> >
> > "Sam Deane" <sam@elegantchaos.com> wrote in message
> > news:20050726120117363+0100@news.eclipse.org...
> >
> >>>Easy: because not all the tools employed on our infrastructure support
> >>>all the delivery mechanisms you state.
> >>
> >>Well, the technologies involved are all quite simple, and the problems
> >>have all been tackled before elsewhere, so gateways could easily be put
> >>in place without messing with your existing infrastructure.
> >>
> >>I take the point about community support though - if enough people want
> >>it, I guess it'll happen. I've asked the question, and there's not much
> >>response so I guess not enough people care - so be it.
> >>
> >>
> >>> From what I observe, the user and the developer are going to have
> >>>totally different conversations. Developers will talk about the inner
> >>>workings of the code, project plans, development cycles, etc. whereas
> >>>users will talk about using the finished product for solutions.
> >>
> >>I think you've missed my point. I agree that developers and users will
> >>have different discussions, and I'm not suggesting that their actual
> >>mailing lists and newsgroups be merged. What I'm saying is that the list
> >>of discussions, and the list of delivery mechanisms, are orthogonal. You
> >>can have discussions which are developer focussed and discussions that
> >>are user focussed, but there's no solid logic for putting one kind of
> >>discussion exclusively on email and the other one exclusively on
> >>newsgroups. A very simple naming convention could be used to indicate
> >>the developer/user focus of each discussion.
> >>
> >>
> >>>This is a great idea. But if you want my personal opinion, I think RSS
> >>>is overrated;
> >>
> >>You are entitled to your opinion ;)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>>- public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et
> >>>>>
> >>>>>al. >can cache them
> >>>
> >>>This is also a good idea; however, our current infrastructure doesn't
> >>>allow anonymous access to the news server for SPAM protection. This is
> >>>not to say it can't be done. However, our mailing lists and newsgroups
> >>>are available in HTML format, and they are currently being indexed by
> >>>the various search engines.
> >>
> >>Indexing by Google is not the same as by Google Groups. Google groups
> >>makes it much easier to focus a search onto a particular group, and also
> >>gives you tools which allow you to monitor a particular thread, receive
> >>notifications when new posts occur, etc. In fact, if proper Google
> >>Groups support was implemented, most of my other requests could be
> >>achieved via Groups itself.
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Eclipse WebMaster - webmaster@eclipse.org
> Questions? Consult the WebMaster FAQ at
> http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Webmaster_FAQ
> View my status at http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/WebMaster
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #31182 is a reply to message #31112] Tue, 07 March 2006 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: eclipse3.rizzoweb.com

Tim Buss wrote:
> Just to bang the drum one more time, I think a web based Forum/message board
> would be a much more effective tool here. The ones I've used allow one to
> subscribe to threads, automatically subscribe if you reply, and provide
> digests of new posts with various options for each "newgroup" in the message
> board etc. There seem to be quite a few Open Source options available.

In the interests of healthy debate and complete representation, I'll
chime in with disagreement. Web-based forums can be very irritating -
most are slow and painful to use compared to a rich email/nntp client.
The browser is just not an ideal mechanism for a high-volume message
reading/posting application - that is what email and news clients do well.
Furthermore, If a web-based forum were chose, everyone would have the
same interface forced upon them, whatever UI the chosen forum software
provided. With email and NNTP, we each can choose our own client.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire to eliminate duplication and
avoid having to monitor two different "locations". I just don't think
web-based forum is the right answer to that. I'd much prefer to see
either the mailing lists or newsgroups phased out and migrated to the
other one.

Hmm, perhaps what we need is an RCP-based application that could be some
tasty dog food to eat...

Eric
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #31620 is a reply to message #31112] Tue, 14 March 2006 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse Webmaster is currently offline Eclipse Webmaster
Messages: 477220
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
We understand your need for a web-based forum, but so far demand for
such a tool has been extremely low. The Eclipse audience (myself
included) seems to enjoy the lightweight nature of e-mail and newsgroups.

That being said, to simplify your channels, you have the option of
closing the mailing list, in favor of moving all discussion to the
newsgroup (or vice-versa) but the tradition has been to use mailing
lists for developer-only discussions among your team, and newsgroups for
solutions-oriented, community-driven discussion.

If you feel a web-based forum is a good idea, please open an enhancement
request for one. Do note that I would not accept to install it
in-addition-to newsgroups as I consider them two of the same; it would
have to replace the newsgroups, which would be a high-impact change for
which I'd need an overwhelming support from the community.

Denis




Tim Buss wrote:
> Thanks for the update and taking the action. The newsgroup and mailing list
> have been set up that way since the beginning and we had believed, until
> now, that it was the standard configuration. Guess we should have asked.
>
> So separating them removes the confusion as to what goes where but now we
> have to check two places to know if there is something that needs responding
> to. Far from ideal.
>
> I didn't see any way I could get a digest or a forward of posts from the
> newsgroup in a way that would make it obvious that the message comes from
> newsgroup. That would at least provide an alert and save things from
> getting stale. Maybe I missed something. Is there a way taht can be done?
>
> Just to bang the drum one more time, I think a web based Forum/message board
> would be a much more effective tool here. The ones I've used allow one to
> subscribe to threads, automatically subscribe if you reply, and provide
> digests of new posts with various options for each "newgroup" in the message
> board etc. There seem to be quite a few Open Source options available.
> http://www.thinkofit.com/webconf/forumsoft.htm#freeware
> Anyway just a thought. I'm not that familiar with RSS feeds, atom and the
> like so I don't know what they get you.
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
>
> "Eclipse WebMaster (Denis Roy)" <webmaster@eclipse.org> wrote in message
> news:dua20h$7df$1@utils.eclipse.org...
>
>>>The issue for us is that the default behviour for Eclipse project
>
> newsgroup
>
>>>is to forward any post to the primary mailing list for the project.
>>
>>This is only try of the *ALF* project, as it's not the way we configure
>>our lists/groups by default. We find that confusing as well.
>>
>>However, Brian Carroll had already brought this to our attention last
>>week, and on Feb. 26 I replied this:
>>
>>Hi Brian,
>>
>>The alf-dev mailing list is current set to e-mail a copy of all the ALF
>>newsgroup postings to the list. This is not the default behaviour, but
>>after reading the link below, I'm wondering if someone might have
>>requested this setup?
>>
>>http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/alf-dev/msg00048.html
>>
>>I was unable to traceback any such request, so if you want the alf-dev
>>mailing list to *not* e-mail newsgroup postings, let me know and we'll
>>remove this.
>>
>>Denis
>>
>> >> EOM
>>
>>I never got a reply back, so no action was taken.
>>
>>I just disconnected the ALF newsgroup and mailing list, as it's obvious
>>now that this is not what you team wants. It should be clear now what
>>channels your community uses to communicate.
>>
>>Denis
>>
>>
>>
>>>Unfortunately, there is no obvious way to know if the post is from the
>>>mailing list or from the newsgroup. Consequently, since most people
>
> work
>
>>>with email all day, most people answer the post from the mailing list
>>>rather than taking the trouble to go see if the post came from the
>
> newsgroup
>
>>>and answering it there. This tendency negates much of what
>
> differentiates
>
>>>the newsgroup from the mailing list - basicaly long running threads of
>>>conversation that are commonly accessible (such as my post here) since
>
> the
>
>>>thread dies in the newsgroup.
>>>
>>>Possibly there is a easy configuration that would address this. I'd
>
> love to
>
>>>know if there is or how others have dealt with it.
>>>
>>>A more sophisticated solution would be to introduce a Message Board such
>
> as
>
>>>used by many online interest groups. While they also have their
>>>difficulties they address this and other issues (browsing fex) making
>
> the
>
>>>"newsgroup" experiance more valuable.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>Tim Buss
>>>ALF project
>>>
>>>
>>>"Sam Deane" <sam@elegantchaos.com> wrote in message
>>>news:20050726120117363+0100@news.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Easy: because not all the tools employed on our infrastructure support
>>>>>all the delivery mechanisms you state.
>>>>
>>>>Well, the technologies involved are all quite simple, and the problems
>>>>have all been tackled before elsewhere, so gateways could easily be put
>>>>in place without messing with your existing infrastructure.
>>>>
>>>>I take the point about community support though - if enough people want
>>>>it, I guess it'll happen. I've asked the question, and there's not much
>>>>response so I guess not enough people care - so be it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From what I observe, the user and the developer are going to have
>>>>>totally different conversations. Developers will talk about the inner
>>>>>workings of the code, project plans, development cycles, etc. whereas
>>>>>users will talk about using the finished product for solutions.
>>>>
>>>>I think you've missed my point. I agree that developers and users will
>>>>have different discussions, and I'm not suggesting that their actual
>>>>mailing lists and newsgroups be merged. What I'm saying is that the list
>>>>of discussions, and the list of delivery mechanisms, are orthogonal. You
>>>>can have discussions which are developer focussed and discussions that
>>>>are user focussed, but there's no solid logic for putting one kind of
>>>>discussion exclusively on email and the other one exclusively on
>>>>newsgroups. A very simple naming convention could be used to indicate
>>>>the developer/user focus of each discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>This is a great idea. But if you want my personal opinion, I think RSS
>>>>>is overrated;
>>>>
>>>>You are entitled to your opinion ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>- public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>al. >can cache them
>>>>>
>>>>>This is also a good idea; however, our current infrastructure doesn't
>>>>>allow anonymous access to the news server for SPAM protection. This is
>>>>>not to say it can't be done. However, our mailing lists and newsgroups
>>>>>are available in HTML format, and they are currently being indexed by
>>>>>the various search engines.
>>>>
>>>>Indexing by Google is not the same as by Google Groups. Google groups
>>>>makes it much easier to focus a search onto a particular group, and also
>>>>gives you tools which allow you to monitor a particular thread, receive
>>>>notifications when new posts occur, etc. In fact, if proper Google
>>>>Groups support was implemented, most of my other requests could be
>>>>achieved via Groups itself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>
>>Eclipse WebMaster - webmaster@eclipse.org
>>Questions? Consult the WebMaster FAQ at
>>http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Webmaster_FAQ
>>View my status at http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/WebMaster
>
>
>

--

Eclipse WebMaster - webmaster@eclipse.org
Questions? Consult the WebMaster FAQ at
http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Webmaster_FAQ
View my status at http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/WebMaster
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #34203 is a reply to message #30765] Mon, 01 May 2006 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: barry.carroll.psc.com

Greetings:

I too, would appreciate a more unified approach to group access. I am most
interested in mailing list access to user discussions. I subscribe to a
number of discussions, including python_tutor, python_announce and
pydev-user, to name just three. All of my subscriptions, except eclipse,
arrive by mailing list. It is the most convenient option for me. My
computer monitors my incoming mail throughout the day, so I know at once
when a digest arrives. Further, all of my communication channels are in one
place.

I recently became an eclipse user as well. I was surprised and disappointed
to find that I had to start up and configure a news reader to get access to
the eclipse.newcomer discussion. It's inconvenient to have another window
on my screen, a second place to check for incoming information, etc.
Obviously I'm not going to die from the trauma, but my experience as a user
of the product is degraded and my satisfaction as a customer lessened as a
result.
--
Regards,

Barry Carroll
PSC Scanning, Inc.
barry.carroll@psc.com

--------------------------------------------------
(Cleverly disguised as a trained software engineer)

PSC Scanning, Inc. assumes no responsibility for anything I might say.
I'm entirely on my own here.

"Tim Buss" <t b u s s @ S e r e n a . c o m> wrote in message
news:du7q4v$b5g$1@utils.eclipse.org...
>I would like to second the request for something better when it comes to
> newsgroups and mailing lists. I'm less clear on what that should be. It
> is
> possible that my particular issue might be solved without going to the
> lengths suggested by Sam Deane so I'm looking for suggestions.
>
> The issue for us is that the default behviour for Eclipse project
> newsgroup
> is to forward any post to the primary mailing list for the project.
> Unfortunately, there is no obvious way to know if the post is from the
> mailing list or from the newsgroup. Consequently, since most people work
> with email all day, most people answer the post from the mailing list
> rather than taking the trouble to go see if the post came from the
> newsgroup
> and answering it there. This tendency negates much of what differentiates
> the newsgroup from the mailing list - basicaly long running threads of
> conversation that are commonly accessible (such as my post here) since the
> thread dies in the newsgroup.
>
> Possibly there is a easy configuration that would address this. I'd love
> to
> know if there is or how others have dealt with it.
>
> A more sophisticated solution would be to introduce a Message Board such
> as
> used by many online interest groups. While they also have their
> difficulties they address this and other issues (browsing fex) making the
> "newsgroup" experiance more valuable.
>
> Thanks
> Tim Buss
> ALF project
>
>
> "Sam Deane" <sam@elegantchaos.com> wrote in message
> news:20050726120117363+0100@news.eclipse.org...
>> > Easy: because not all the tools employed on our infrastructure support
>> > all the delivery mechanisms you state.
>>
>> Well, the technologies involved are all quite simple, and the problems
>> have all been tackled before elsewhere, so gateways could easily be put
>> in place without messing with your existing infrastructure.
>>
>> I take the point about community support though - if enough people want
>> it, I guess it'll happen. I've asked the question, and there's not much
>> response so I guess not enough people care - so be it.
>>
>> > From what I observe, the user and the developer are going to have
>> > totally different conversations. Developers will talk about the inner
>> > workings of the code, project plans, development cycles, etc. whereas
>> > users will talk about using the finished product for solutions.
>>
>> I think you've missed my point. I agree that developers and users will
>> have different discussions, and I'm not suggesting that their actual
>> mailing lists and newsgroups be merged. What I'm saying is that the list
>> of discussions, and the list of delivery mechanisms, are orthogonal. You
>> can have discussions which are developer focussed and discussions that
>> are user focussed, but there's no solid logic for putting one kind of
>> discussion exclusively on email and the other one exclusively on
>> newsgroups. A very simple naming convention could be used to indicate
>> the developer/user focus of each discussion.
>>
>> > This is a great idea. But if you want my personal opinion, I think RSS
>> > is overrated;
>>
>> You are entitled to your opinion ;)
>>
>>
>> >>>>- public redistribution of the newsgroups so that Google Groups et
>> >>>al. >can cache them
>> > This is also a good idea; however, our current infrastructure doesn't
>> > allow anonymous access to the news server for SPAM protection. This is
>> > not to say it can't be done. However, our mailing lists and newsgroups
>> > are available in HTML format, and they are currently being indexed by
>> > the various search engines.
>>
>> Indexing by Google is not the same as by Google Groups. Google groups
>> makes it much easier to focus a search onto a particular group, and also
>> gives you tools which allow you to monitor a particular thread, receive
>> notifications when new posts occur, etc. In fact, if proper Google
>> Groups support was implemented, most of my other requests could be
>> achieved via Groups itself.
>
>
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #34896 is a reply to message #34203] Fri, 19 May 2006 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

Barry Carroll wrote:
> Greetings:
>
> I too, would appreciate a more unified approach to group access. I am most
> interested in mailing list access to user discussions. I subscribe to a
> number of discussions, including python_tutor, python_announce and
> pydev-user, to name just three. All of my subscriptions, except eclipse,
> arrive by mailing list. It is the most convenient option for me. My
> computer monitors my incoming mail throughout the day, so I know at once
> when a digest arrives. Further, all of my communication channels are in one
> place.
>
> I recently became an eclipse user as well. I was surprised and disappointed
> to find that I had to start up and configure a news reader to get access to
> the eclipse.newcomer discussion. It's inconvenient to have another window
> on my screen, a second place to check for incoming information, etc.
> Obviously I'm not going to die from the trauma, but my experience as a user
> of the product is degraded and my satisfaction as a customer lessened as a
> result.

To each his own. Personally I do not like mailing lists and avoid them
when possible. News groups and news readers are much more useful than
email for this type of thing. Thats what they were designed for. You
can probably sign up to get emailed summaries of what goes on in the
news group IIRC.

The ng is private so you can use your real name and email address. That
is unfortunate because it means you cant search google groups for info,
but have to search eclipse website which in turn will search the group
after you log in. And I have never liked eclipse website search and
still am totally baffled at the complete suckage of Eclipse-Help search
which consistently fails to find topics matching search terms...

but it keeps the spammers away and I don't have to filter _any_ posts to
the eclipse news groups ever.

CL
Re: Why Private Newsgroups? [message #34931 is a reply to message #34896] Sat, 20 May 2006 02:59 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bert.iphouse.com

In news:e4kl6h$v86$1@utils.eclipse.org "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert"
<Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote:

> That
> is unfortunate because it means you cant search google groups for info,
> but have to search eclipse website which in turn will search the group
> after you log in.

BTW: The Eclipse Web site is indexed by Google. When searching, just enter
"eclipse.org" in the domain field to focus your searches.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
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