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Why Subversive? [message #1721] Sat, 01 July 2006 06:29 Go to next message
Thomas Hallgren is currently offline Thomas Hallgren
Messages: 3229
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I was surprised to see your announcement to become an Eclipse Technology Project. I didn't
know of Subversive and my immediate thought was - why create another Subversion plugin? I've
been using Subclipse for a number of years now, seen it mature, and I've always been very
happy with it. The response given by its huge community is great and my impression has
always been that the development team are open to new ideas. What was it that made you
decide to write your own plugin instead of contributing your efforts to that project?

Kind Regards,
Thomas Hallgren
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1730 is a reply to message #1721] Tue, 04 July 2006 12:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: michal.dobisek.polarion.com

Hi Thomas,

>I was surprised to see your announcement to become an Eclipse Technology
>Project. I didn't know of Subversive and my immediate thought was - why
>create another Subversion plugin? I've been using Subclipse for a number of
>years now, seen it mature, and I've always been very happy with it. The
>response given by its huge community is great and my impression has always
>been that the development team are open to new ideas. What was it that made
>you decide to write your own plugin instead of contributing your efforts to
>that project?

To clarify: the proposal at Eclipse.org is not to create a new Subversion
plugin, but to move the development
of existing plugin into the Eclipse project with the aim to provide the
Subversion support as out of the box feature of Eclipse platform in the
future (which seems to be the goal welcomed by the majority of the Eclipse
users).

Please note, that that proposal document
(http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/subversive/) mentions explicitly the
Subclipse team as expected cooperator in reaching this goal.

Best Regards,

Michal Dobisek

PS: There were several flames on the topic Subclipse vs. Subversive around
and I don't think we need more on this newsgoup. You can find the Subversive
team explanation why the project was started on the FAQ section of the
Subversive project page:
http://www.polarion.org/index.php?page=faq&project=subve rsive.
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1735 is a reply to message #1730] Tue, 04 July 2006 13:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Hallgren is currently offline Thomas Hallgren
Messages: 3229
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Michal,
Good to know that you plan to get the Subclipse team on board. I'm not the least bit
interested in stirring up a Subversive versus Subclipse flame war but I do have some minor
concerns. I'm a contributor to the Buckminster Technology project and one of the plugins
there is a SVN provider built on top of headless Subclipse functionality.

Your proposal states that your initial submission to Eclipse is a fully functional plugin,
apparently (according to your FAQ) created based on an opinion that the Subclipse plugin was
inferior and/or insufficient to reach your goals. I also read your invitation where you ask
the Subclipse community to join in. In their response they ask a couple of valid questions
but there's no public reply from you. What happened to that discussion?

http://svn.haxx.se/subdev/archive-2006-04/0011.shtml

You are in no doubt aware that Subclipse is planning to submit their plugins to Eclipse as
well. Do you see that as a part of this proposal?

http://svn.haxx.se/subdev/archive-2006-06/0017.shtml

In any case, I wish you best of luck. I really look forward to getting a Subversion client
as part of the Eclipse IDE and I hope the impact on my project is minimal.

Kind Regards,
Thomas Hallgren



Michal Dobísek wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
>
>> I was surprised to see your announcement to become an Eclipse Technology
>> Project. I didn't know of Subversive and my immediate thought was - why
>> create another Subversion plugin? I've been using Subclipse for a number of
>> years now, seen it mature, and I've always been very happy with it. The
>> response given by its huge community is great and my impression has always
>> been that the development team are open to new ideas. What was it that made
>> you decide to write your own plugin instead of contributing your efforts to
>> that project?
>
> To clarify: the proposal at Eclipse.org is not to create a new Subversion
> plugin, but to move the development
> of existing plugin into the Eclipse project with the aim to provide the
> Subversion support as out of the box feature of Eclipse platform in the
> future (which seems to be the goal welcomed by the majority of the Eclipse
> users).
>
> Please note, that that proposal document
> (http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/subversive/) mentions explicitly the
> Subclipse team as expected cooperator in reaching this goal.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Michal Dobisek
>
> PS: There were several flames on the topic Subclipse vs. Subversive around
> and I don't think we need more on this newsgoup. You can find the Subversive
> team explanation why the project was started on the FAQ section of the
> Subversive project page:
> http://www.polarion.org/index.php?page=faq&project=subve rsive.
>
>
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1743 is a reply to message #1735] Tue, 04 July 2006 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: michal.dobisek.polarion.com

Hi Thomas,

> the Subclipse community to join in. In their response they ask a couple of
> valid questions but there's no public reply from you. What happened to
> that discussion?
>
> http://svn.haxx.se/subdev/archive-2006-04/0011.shtml

You are right, that the conversation is unfinished. The main open issues
are:

1) What about JavaSVN licensing?
We are in negotiation with Alex from JavaSVN on solving this issued. An
ideal solution would be (as stated in our proposal) to get EPL licensed
JavaSVN, since (1) it's pure Java (so htere is no need for istribution of
platform specific libraries like with JavaHL) and (2) it provides more rich
interface to access SVN than standard JavaHL API.

2) Why we did not propose the Eclipse project before development of
Subversive started?
Our initial goal was not do develop SVN support for Eclipse, but to
integrate Eclipse with Polarion products. Now as this goal was more-less
reached (see FastTrack at http://polarion.org/), we have also Subversive as
a component which provides the Eclipse Subversion support. Now, we would
like to let it live it's own live as Eclipse Team provider for Subversion,
while maintaining the features (extensibility, etc. as described in the
proposal).
From the explanation below, you see, that it would not make sense to make
Eclipse proposal before having something real to contribute.

> You are in no doubt aware that Subclipse is planning to submit their
> plugins to Eclipse as well. Do you see that as a part of this proposal?
>
> http://svn.haxx.se/subdev/archive-2006-06/0017.shtml

The conversation you point out seems to appear after our proposal was
published on Eclipse.org (at least after it was submitted), therefore it
can't be reflected in our proposal. However, we mention Subclipse in our
proposal several times and we assume the discussion to evolve in this
newsgroup.

Best Regards,

Michal Dobisek
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1750 is a reply to message #1735] Thu, 06 July 2006 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello Thomas,

I think that Michal already covered most aspects, which requre
clarification. From my side I want to ask you about Buckminster project
integration with SVN. We want to make Subversive extensible to allow reuse
its infrastructure in other projects. The FastTrack project (see it in
www.polarion.org), which build on top of Subversive, is used to find current
extension points in the Subversive. It will be great to know opinion of
other developers, which did such plugins integration. Could you please point
us to functionality, which was reused? Thank you.

> Good to know that you plan to get the Subclipse team on board. I'm not the
> least bit interested in stirring up a Subversive versus Subclipse flame
> war but I do have some minor concerns. I'm a contributor to the
> Buckminster Technology project and one of the plugins there is a SVN
> provider built on top of headless Subclipse functionality.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1756 is a reply to message #1750] Thu, 06 July 2006 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Hallgren is currently offline Thomas Hallgren
Messages: 3229
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Igor Vinnykov wrote:
> Hello Thomas,
>
> I think that Michal already covered most aspects, which requre
> clarification. From my side I want to ask you about Buckminster project
> integration with SVN. We want to make Subversive extensible to allow reuse
> its infrastructure in other projects. The FastTrack project (see it in
> www.polarion.org), which build on top of Subversive, is used to find current
> extension points in the Subversive. It will be great to know opinion of
> other developers, which did such plugins integration. Could you please point
> us to functionality, which was reused? Thank you.
>
We used parts of the Subclipse core package and the svnclientadapter. Mainly things needed
in order to read files in the remote repository to obtain (check out) whole modules.

You can browse the CVS for the plugin in question here:
http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/org.eclipse.buckmin ster/org.eclipse.buckminster.svn/?cvsroot=Technology_Project

Regards,
Thomas Hallgren
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1763 is a reply to message #1750] Thu, 06 July 2006 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eugene Kuleshov is currently offline Eugene Kuleshov
Messages: 505
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Is there are any documentation on those extension points?
Have you communicated to Eclipse Team if those extension points should
be generified for other team providers?

This kind of stuff is really important if you really mean to be open
to community and not only support needs for your own commercial products.

regards,
Eugene


Igor Vinnykov wrote:
> Hello Thomas,
>
> I think that Michal already covered most aspects, which requre
> clarification. From my side I want to ask you about Buckminster project
> integration with SVN. We want to make Subversive extensible to allow reuse
> its infrastructure in other projects. The FastTrack project (see it in
> www.polarion.org), which build on top of Subversive, is used to find current
> extension points in the Subversive. It will be great to know opinion of
> other developers, which did such plugins integration. Could you please point
> us to functionality, which was reused? Thank you.
>
>
>> Good to know that you plan to get the Subclipse team on board. I'm not the
>> least bit interested in stirring up a Subversive versus Subclipse flame
>> war but I do have some minor concerns. I'm a contributor to the
>> Buckminster Technology project and one of the plugins there is a SVN
>> provider built on top of headless Subclipse functionality.
>>
>
> Best regards,
> Igor Vinnykov
>
>
>
headless svn clients [message #1769 is a reply to message #1756] Thu, 06 July 2006 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eugene Kuleshov is currently offline Eugene Kuleshov
Messages: 505
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Thomas, it is unrelated to subversive and this discussion, but I
wonder if you looked at Maven's Wagon project that has an abstraction
level for accessing various version control repositories (not only cvs
and svn), though I believe it calls command line tools for some stuff.

regards,
Eugene


Thomas Hallgren wrote:
> Igor Vinnykov wrote:
>> Hello Thomas,
>>
>> I think that Michal already covered most aspects, which requre
>> clarification. From my side I want to ask you about Buckminster
>> project integration with SVN. We want to make Subversive extensible
>> to allow reuse its infrastructure in other projects. The FastTrack
>> project (see it in www.polarion.org), which build on top of
>> Subversive, is used to find current extension points in the
>> Subversive. It will be great to know opinion of other developers,
>> which did such plugins integration. Could you please point us to
>> functionality, which was reused? Thank you.
>>
> We used parts of the Subclipse core package and the svnclientadapter.
> Mainly things needed in order to read files in the remote repository
> to obtain (check out) whole modules.
>
> You can browse the CVS for the plugin in question here:
> http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/org.eclipse.buckmin ster/org.eclipse.buckminster.svn/?cvsroot=Technology_Project
>
>
> Regards,
> Thomas Hallgren
Maven's Wagon project [WAS Re: headless svn clients] [message #1775 is a reply to message #1769] Thu, 06 July 2006 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Hallgren is currently offline Thomas Hallgren
Messages: 3229
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Eugene,

Eugene Kuleshov wrote:
>
> I wonder
> if you looked at Maven's Wagon project that has an abstraction level for
> accessing various version control repositories (not only cvs and svn),
> though I believe it calls command line tools for some stuff.
>
Yes, we looked at it briefly. It allows you to store maven artifacts in a protocol agnostic
way. When used together with Maven Artifact (deals with component layout) it forms a concept
similar to what you get when using the Buckminster extension points reader-types and
component-types.

Regards,
Thomas Hallgren
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1782 is a reply to message #1721] Fri, 07 July 2006 11:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Konstantin Scheglov is currently offline Konstantin Scheglov
Messages: 554
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Thomas Hallgren wrote:

> I was surprised to see your announcement to become an Eclipse Technology
> Project. I didn't know of Subversive and my immediate thought was - why
> create another Subversion plugin? I've been using Subclipse for a number
> of years now, seen it mature, and I've always been very happy with it.
> The response given by its huge community is great and my impression has
> always been that the development team are open to new ideas. What was it
> that made you decide to write your own plugin instead of contributing
> your efforts to that project?

I have not used Subclipse a lot, just installed it several times,
tried and decided that it was not mature enough for my needs. At same
time I've used JavaSVN for my SVN related project and was happy with it.
Subversive starting from first version that I've installed was very
comfortable for me - fast, has all features that I need and stable enough.

So, I don't want to know how much years Subclipse was already and
have mature it is, when I see Subversive that just works and does all
what I need.


Konstantin Scheglov,
Google, Inc.
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1788 is a reply to message #1763] Fri, 07 July 2006 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello Eugene and Thomas,



Thanks for Thomas for pointing to the example of SVN infrastructure reuse.
It can be a good start point for us in further investigations.



Extension points in the Subversive have the same level of documentation as
other parts of project (unfortunately poor at that moment), but they can de
easily discovered in the code. The Fast Track, currently alone project,
which uses Subversive extension points, which cover following functionality:

a.. Checkout operation extension and customization
b.. Share project operation extension and customization
c.. Commit operation extension and customization
d.. Decorations customization
e.. Contribution of actions to Synchronize view

Neither extension points or any other such technical stuff were discussed at
this phase, but our proposal clearly states "API access to Subversive
functionality", "Strong extensibility on different layers" and "Support for
custom handling of different states and situations" as our priorities and
general goal "Participate in improvements and evolution of Eclipse Team
project".



Our other products are the first time clients to these extension points, but
of course our goal is to have the thing extensible in a general way, not
just in few ad-hoc use cases, since everyone (including us) is likely to
benefit from that. If some extensions will seem to be useful on generic
Eclipse Team layer, then we will contribute it there.



If someone has ideas for improvements of extension points or providing
reusable API, we will be glad to discuss.



Best regards,

Igor Vinnykov



"Eugene Kuleshov" <eu@md.pp.ru> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:e8jah2$jgh$1@utils.eclipse.org...
>
> Is there are any documentation on those extension points?
> Have you communicated to Eclipse Team if those extension points should be
> generified for other team providers?
>
> This kind of stuff is really important if you really mean to be open to
> community and not only support needs for your own commercial products.
>
> regards,
> Eugene
>
>
> Igor Vinnykov wrote:
>> Hello Thomas,
>>
>> I think that Michal already covered most aspects, which requre
>> clarification. From my side I want to ask you about Buckminster project
>> integration with SVN. We want to make Subversive extensible to allow
>> reuse its infrastructure in other projects. The FastTrack project (see it
>> in www.polarion.org), which build on top of Subversive, is used to find
>> current extension points in the Subversive. It will be great to know
>> opinion of other developers, which did such plugins integration. Could
>> you please point us to functionality, which was reused? Thank you.
>>
>>
>>> Good to know that you plan to get the Subclipse team on board. I'm not
>>> the least bit interested in stirring up a Subversive versus Subclipse
>>> flame war but I do have some minor concerns. I'm a contributor to the
>>> Buckminster Technology project and one of the plugins there is a SVN
>>> provider built on top of headless Subclipse functionality.
>>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Vinnykov
>>
>>
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1791 is a reply to message #1782] Fri, 07 July 2006 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eugene Kuleshov is currently offline Eugene Kuleshov
Messages: 505
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Interesting. I had quite opposite experience. Subclipse is working
just fine, but Subversive screwed completely on commits and synchronization.

I also have feeling that Subversive's UI is modelled after SmartSVN
(there is clear similarity in many layouts), that had been designed as a
standalone tool and not always fit into busy IDE UI with all the views...

regards,
Eugene


Konstantin Scheglov wrote:
> I have not used Subclipse a lot, just installed it several times,
> tried and decided that it was not mature enough for my needs. At same
> time I've used JavaSVN for my SVN related project and was happy with
> it. Subversive starting from first version that I've installed was
> very comfortable for me - fast, has all features that I need and
> stable enough.
>
> So, I don't want to know how much years Subclipse was already and
> have mature it is, when I see Subversive that just works and does all
> what I need.
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1797 is a reply to message #1788] Fri, 07 July 2006 18:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eugene Kuleshov is currently offline Eugene Kuleshov
Messages: 505
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
> Extension points in the Subversive have the same level of documentation as
> other parts of project (unfortunately poor at that moment), but they can de
> easily discovered in the code. The Fast Track, currently alone project,
> which uses Subversive extension points, which cover following functionality:
>
> a.. Checkout operation extension and customization
> b.. Share project operation extension and customization
> c.. Commit operation extension and customization
>
There is an open issue against Team provider to made such extension
point common for different provider types (e.g. CVS and SVN). Also note
that Mylar project did such generalization on its side and already has
common API for both CVS and SVN. I think Gunnar was working on it.
> d.. Decorations customization
> e.. Contribution of actions to Synchronize view
>
This is already possible. For instance Mylar done that for both CVS
and Subclipse.
> Neither extension points or any other such technical stuff were discussed at
> this phase, but our proposal clearly states "API access to Subversive
> functionality", "Strong extensibility on different layers" and "Support for
> custom handling of different states and situations" as our priorities and
> general goal "Participate in improvements and evolution of Eclipse Team
> project".
>
That is plain limited and not beneficial for 3rd party plugins. If you
going to be part of the platform you should have better generalization
and commonality between multiple team providers, so other tools won't
have to deal with Subversive-specific only extension points.

regards,
Eugene
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1805 is a reply to message #1788] Fri, 07 July 2006 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: beatmik.acm.org

Igor Vinnykov wrote:
> Neither extension points or any other such technical stuff were discussed at
> this phase, but our proposal clearly states "API access to Subversive
> functionality", "Strong extensibility on different layers" and "Support for
> custom handling of different states and situations" as our priorities and
> general goal "Participate in improvements and evolution of Eclipse Team
> project".

In addition to being stated, I think that the above needs to be
demonstrated. For example, the Subclipse team has demonstrated the
value they place on integration with Platform via the bug reports and
patches they have been providing to Team. They have demonstrated
integration with emerging eclipse.org technologies via the integration
and patches they have provided to Mylar (there is relevant overlap due
to Mylar's task-based change set management and its Team-like framework
for task/bug/issue repositories).

An eclipse.org Subversion integration project could be a good way of
meeting a goal we all share: the seamless integration we currently have
with CVS for Subversion. But creating an eclipse.org project is not
sufficient to achieve that. I believe that the leadership of the
proposed project must first demonstrate the cooperation, proactive
collaboration and consensus building that improving the framework and
integration entails. A way of achieving that could be to somehow
combine the leadership of this effort with Subclipse's, since they have
already demonstrated this.

Mik

--
Mik Kersten, http://kerstens.org/mik
Mylar Project Lead, http://eclipse.org/mylar
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1811 is a reply to message #1805] Fri, 07 July 2006 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eugene Kuleshov is currently offline Eugene Kuleshov
Messages: 505
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Excellent wording! Nobody couldn't say it better and I 100% agree with
Mik.

Eclipse projects should be really open both way- accept community
contributions and support community needs (and not just build tools to
support proprietary product needs).

regards,
Eugene


Mik Kersten wrote:
> Igor Vinnykov wrote:
>> Neither extension points or any other such technical stuff were
>> discussed at this phase, but our proposal clearly states "API access
>> to Subversive functionality", "Strong extensibility on different
>> layers" and "Support for custom handling of different states and
>> situations" as our priorities and general goal "Participate in
>> improvements and evolution of Eclipse Team project".
>
> In addition to being stated, I think that the above needs to be
> demonstrated. For example, the Subclipse team has demonstrated the
> value they place on integration with Platform via the bug reports and
> patches they have been providing to Team. They have demonstrated
> integration with emerging eclipse.org technologies via the integration
> and patches they have provided to Mylar (there is relevant overlap due
> to Mylar's task-based change set management and its Team-like
> framework for task/bug/issue repositories).
>
> An eclipse.org Subversion integration project could be a good way of
> meeting a goal we all share: the seamless integration we currently
> have with CVS for Subversion. But creating an eclipse.org project is
> not sufficient to achieve that. I believe that the leadership of the
> proposed project must first demonstrate the cooperation, proactive
> collaboration and consensus building that improving the framework and
> integration entails. A way of achieving that could be to somehow
> combine the leadership of this effort with Subclipse's, since they
> have already demonstrated this.
>
> Mik
>
> --
> Mik Kersten, http://kerstens.org/mik
> Mylar Project Lead, http://eclipse.org/mylar
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1815 is a reply to message #1805] Fri, 07 July 2006 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello Mik,

Thank you for sharing your vision. I think that we have a common position
here.

At current stage we can’t declare a huge help from the Subversive project
to Eclipse Team project. But we pay full attention to areas, where we can
be useful to community. A bug in Eclipse
(https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=137690), which we helped to
fix, can be a small example of selected direction in this question.

Subversive project reached tangible results and firstly appeared on public
in March of 2006 year. The amount of work, which we did during since and
the same fact that proposal was published on eclipse.org, demonstrates
potential of the project. You can review Subversive change log
( http://www.polarion.org/projects/subversive/download/changel og.txt) or
status in our Tracker
( http://community.polarion.org/polarion/portal/perspective/pr ojects/page/project_dashboard.psml/project/Subversive)
in order to make your own conclusions. Sure that our current tasks are not
directly related to improving the Eclipse framework, but review of the
project state can give an impression about our process. I think that
doubts should disappear after review of the assistance, which we did for
JavaSVN, in particular. Until the project release we consider direction of
functionality extension as the most priority and spend all efforts to
improvement of the JavaSVN. Unfortunately these efforts are not endless,
so there is a lack of visible progress in other direction. But as soon as
short term goals will be reached (hope soon), we will redistribute our
efforts in other directions.

Aspects, outlined in our proposal, are our priority goals for next project
stages when SVN functionality and alignment to CVS plugin will be covered.
It doesn’t mean that we should stay on same place until current job will
be completed. But it will be great if other project developers help us to
define integration needs more exactly.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1821 is a reply to message #1791] Fri, 07 July 2006 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello Eugene,

Could you please send error report, which describes these problems? Please
send it either to bugs list, mail list or forum. Thank you in advance.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov

Eugene Kuleshov wrote:
> Interesting. I had quite opposite experience. Subclipse is working
> just fine, but Subversive screwed completely on commits and synchronization.
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1826 is a reply to message #1821] Fri, 07 July 2006 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eugene Kuleshov is currently offline Eugene Kuleshov
Messages: 505
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
So far I haven't seen any proof that my reports being considered at
all. Stuff I reported in mail list had been ignored and I have no idea
if it ended up in your tracker, which web UI is practically impossible
to use (overloaded and hard to navigate UI, missing scrollers, pages
beyond the scroller, etc). Well, maybe it is just me, but I haven't
heard any happy voices about how nice and cool this tracker is.
Anyways, I am still convinced that in current situation reporting any
issues on Subversive would be waste of my time.

regards,
Eugene


Igor Vinnykov wrote:
> Hello Eugene,
>
> Could you please send error report, which describes these problems?
> Please send it either to bugs list, mail list or forum. Thank you in
> advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Igor Vinnykov
>
> Eugene Kuleshov wrote:
>> Interesting. I had quite opposite experience. Subclipse is working
>> just fine, but Subversive screwed completely on commits and
>> synchronization.
>
>
>
Re: Why Subversive? [message #1831 is a reply to message #1826] Sat, 08 July 2006 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello Eugene,

I do not want to follow this discussion as PR battle between Subclipse and
Subversive projects, to which you and I have relation. I think that it’s
not profitable direction and not appropriate place. We should give a space
for other people to share their opinion about Subversive proposal. By
publishing our proposal on eclipse.org we once again invited Subclipse
team to join forces and will be really happy to see their comments
regarding this idea. So let’s better concentrate on these discussions.

Anyway, I provide detailed comments of your message and hope that all
concerns are addressed. If something require additional discussion don’t
hesitate to ask, but I propose to move it to different place (mail list of
forum), because it doesn’t related directly to Subversive proposal itself.

> So far I haven't seen any proof that my reports being considered at
> all. Stuff I reported in mail list had been ignored and I have no idea
> if it ended up in your tracker, which web UI is practically impossible
> to use (overloaded and hard to navigate UI, missing scrollers, pages
> beyond the scroller, etc).

It’s not truth and you know it, because I informed you in mail list about
changes, which we implemented by to your tips. Moreover, you can find
yourself in Subversive change log
http://www.polarion.org/projects/subversive/download/changel og.txt:

Version 1.0.0 M9 [24 March 2006]:
* Use CVS-like decoration icon for modified resources
+ special thanks to Eugene Kuleshov; Daniel Spiewak

Version 1.0.0 M8 [17 March 2006]:
* Rework History View - comment viewer should be shown in the bottom of
the log messages table
+ special thanks to Eugene Kuleshov

We are appreciate you for your tips and looking forward for new.

> Well, maybe it is just me, but I haven't
> heard any happy voices about how nice and cool this tracker is.

I do not understand how usability of our Tracker related to Subversive
proposal on eclipse.org and why it’s discussed here…

> Anyways, I am still convinced that in current situation reporting any
> issues on Subversive would be waste of my time.

Our process in based on 1-2 weeks iterations and we try to address
reported problems, in the nearest build. By this reason currently we moved
from 2 weeks iteration to 1 week iteration, in order to deliver builds
with improvements and fixes as soon as possible. It can be easily observed
in the change log:
http://www.polarion.org/projects/subversive/download/changel og.txt
Feedbacks for our support can be found in forum
http://forums.polarion.org/viewforum.php?f=8 or by googling blogs about
Subversive.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
javasvn questions? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #2129 is a reply to message #1743] Mon, 10 July 2006 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Philippe Ombredanne is currently offline Philippe Ombredanne
Messages: 386
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Michal Dob
Subversive and Subclipse? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #2156 is a reply to message #1791] Mon, 10 July 2006 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Philippe Ombredanne is currently offline Philippe Ombredanne
Messages: 386
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Here is my personal opinion on this proposal. First it is well written, and
crisp.

Subversive is a recently new comer in that space.
Subclipse was the sole open source provider of SVN support until then.
Which has brought some interesting competition.

But open source is not only about competition but also about cooperation and
collaboration in the community.

And in the case of something as important as Eclipse built-in and
Eclipse.org-sanctioned SVN support, the cooperation should be one of the
most important factor.

When a project becomes an official Eclipse.org project, it has the potential
(if it is decent) to become a de-facto standard, and inhibit any other
projects efforts in the same space.

For instance the web tools project --despite it had on the paper all the
right features needed, and was supported by a large corporation --
nevertheless invited and collaborated closely with the Lomboz project which
was in the same J2ee tooling space. Lomboz contributors were part of the web
tools project team from its inception.
If this had not taken place, it would have created a nasty fracture in the
community.
So it is important that this collaboration happens before a project can be
accepted, this is healthy, this is good from any possible angle you want to
look at it.

The point that I would like to make is I would not see any reason for
Eclipse as a Foundation to privilege one project over the other unless there
are vast merits differences between them . That is good neither for the
aspiring Eclipse.org project, nor for Eclipse.org and the community at
large.

So here is the alternative:
- beauty contest: each of Subclipse and the Subversive team submit a
competing project proposal, and anything can happen or not happen at all.
- there is a real conversation, cooperation and collaboration taking place
between the two teams (Subclipse and Subversive) that submit a joint project
to Eclipse.org

In think the former approach has little chance to see the light as an
official Eclipse.org project.
Just my 2 cents.
Cordially

--
Cheers, Philippe
philippe ombredanne | nexB
1 650 799 0949 | pombredanne at nexb.com
http://www.nexb.com
http://easyeclipse.org
Re: javasvn questions? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #2184 is a reply to message #2129] Tue, 11 July 2006 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: michal.dobisek.polarion.com

"Philippe Ombredanne" <pombredanne@nexb.com> wrote in message
news:e8u5m6$l74$1@utils.eclipse.org...
>> JavaSVN, since (1) it's pure Java (so there is no need for distribution
>> of
>> platform specific libraries like with JavaHL)
> That is a plus, but that never was an issue with SWT, was it?

I am not sure how was it with SWT, because I never supported it's
deployment, but with JavaHL we experienced troubles, that sometimes the
target system was missing the required libraries and it wasn't trivial to
install them (in other words the Java application wasn't completely self
contained).
Of course it makes sense to do some core-low level things in
platform-dependent way, but I think, that Subversion support is above this
level and deserves pure Java impl (of course, if there is such a
possibility).

> Another issue is that Javasvn afaik mimicks the Javahl API, so I am not
> sure
> that itss API is richer, unless you forfeit Javahl compatibility.
Exactly, Javasvn provides implementation of interfaces defined by Javahl API
plus some more of it's "Javasvn API".

> Going to http://tmatesoft.com/ redirects to JetBrains. What could be the
> incentive of JetBrains to contribute its code under EPL to Eclipse?
I can't see into Alex's mind and I don't know his exact goals, but it seems
to me that it's important for him to be the leading Java API for SVN. If his
licensing will enforce creation of an alternative rich enough implementation
(e.g. partially or fully based on JavaHL), then he can loose his positions.
Avoiding this might be the reason for him to release JavaSVN or it's parts
under EPL. But I am not a prophet ;-)

> If javasvn is not EPL'ed by its author, what would be the plan?
> Could you comment on that?
If this happens (which is not unlikely), then we plan to create our own Java
abstraction for SVN (providing all the necessary features needed, like
operation cancelation), which will replace the used JavaSVN API and
(initially), create the implementation (possibly limited at the beginning)
based on JavaHL. This will ensure, that the Eclipse SVN client (Subversive,
in particular ;-) can be build in the rich enough way, not dependent on the
actual SVN access provider.
After this happens, then there are three possible future developments -
either such enrichments to JavaHL will be implemented/contributed, to fully
support the features of our abstraction, or an alternative implementation
will emerge under EPL or JavaSVN will become EPL licensed (this is expected
even by Alex to happen in few years -
http://svn.haxx.se/subdev/archive-2006-07/0016.shtml). I am not able to
judge in advance which of these scenarios will get the most support.

Cheers,

Michal Dobisek
Polarion Software
http://polarion.org/
Re: javasvn questions? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #2246 is a reply to message #2184] Thu, 27 July 2006 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gunnar Wagenknecht is currently offline Gunnar Wagenknecht
Messages: 451
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Michal Dobí¹ek wrote:
> I am not sure how was it with SWT, because I never supported it's
> deployment, but with JavaHL we experienced troubles, that sometimes the
> target system was missing the required libraries and it wasn't trivial to
> install them (in other words the Java application wasn't completely self
> contained).

I'm not an expert in those native library things. But what about linking
them statically to reduce dependencies on external libs to only those
that can expected to be installed by a user. For example, for a Windows
fragment that would mean "ship everything, we can't expect users to mess
around with DLLs". For Linux users that would mean "make a readme entry
that he requires lib-xyz". I think that's pretty similar how SWT does it.

>> If javasvn is not EPL'ed by its author, what would be the plan?
>> Could you comment on that?
> If this happens (which is not unlikely), then we plan to create our own Java
> abstraction for SVN (providing all the necessary features needed, like
> operation cancelation), which will replace the used JavaSVN API and
> (initially), create the implementation (possibly limited at the beginning)
> based on JavaHL. This will ensure, that the Eclipse SVN client (Subversive,
> in particular ;-) can be build in the rich enough way, not dependent on the
> actual SVN access provider.

Actually, I would love to see it happen. A couple of months back I
really appreciated a pure Java API for Subversion. However, one of the
Subclipse guys and some other readings partly changed my mind. I tend to
prefer the Subversion JavaHL bindings now. I agree that is much have to
have one client API that is developed and maintained together with
Subversion.

Anyway, what I really like about Subversive is that it really abstracts
the "traditional" Subversion concepts especially around branching and
tagging. IMHO it's really important to make this process much more
easier and understandable from an UI perspective. I noticed that a lot
developers actually do have problems interacting with the traditional
Subversion style of branching and merging. I would love to see (and also
help building) a tool that makes branch management with Subversion as
easy as with the ClearCase branch manager.

Cu, Gunnar

--
Gunnar Wagenknecht
gunnar@wagenknecht.org
http://wagenknecht.org/
Re: javasvn questions? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #2276 is a reply to message #2184] Thu, 27 July 2006 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Hallgren is currently offline Thomas Hallgren
Messages: 3229
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Michal Dobí¹ek wrote:

>> If javasvn is not EPL'ed by its author, what would be the plan?
>> Could you comment on that?
> If this happens (which is not unlikely), then we plan to create our own Java
> abstraction for SVN (providing all the necessary features needed, like
> operation cancelation), which will replace the used JavaSVN API and
> (initially), create the implementation (possibly limited at the beginning)
> based on JavaHL. This will ensure, that the Eclipse SVN client (Subversive,
> in particular ;-) can be build in the rich enough way, not dependent on the
> actual SVN access provider.
>
I discussed the idea of an EPL based pure java client with the Subclipse community a couple
of weeks ago. Their position is that it would be far to much work to maintain a JavaHL like
replacement. The protocol is not stable yet. Things move all the time. JavaHL contains
server functionality for running the file-based repository locally.

I'm not convinced it's a bad idea though. Especially if you let go of the server
functionality and create a pure client.

If I could make a wish, it would be that Subversive and Subclipse merge their proposals and
that you (Subversive) submit patches to Subclipse to make them incorporate the functionality
that is unique to Subversive. In addition, and in case JavaSVN doesn't relicense, you submit
an EPL based, client only, pure-java based replacement for JavaHL :-)

And totally of topic (but somewhat related) I'd like to see one of two things happen with SWT:
1. It's incorporated as a standard in the JVM, just as AWT is today.
2. A new version is written that is based solely on AWT.

Well, dreams are for free right? I'm not an advocate of using native libraries. It cripples
the whole idea of "write once, run everywhere" and makes packaging and distribution a mess.

Kind Regards,
Thomas Hallgren
Re: Why Subversive? [message #2336 is a reply to message #1805] Thu, 27 July 2006 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Mik, nicely worded.
Eclipse projects are about code, but they are also about community:
developers, adopters, and users. Cooperative, proactive, involved
communities.
The Eclipse Foundation is not going to pick sides in a fight between
competing projects - that's not the role of the Foundation. The best
solution would be cooperation, just like what happened with the
competing ORM projects that we had last year - they worked out their
differences and merged into one project.

> I believe that the leadership of the
> proposed project must first demonstrate the cooperation, proactive
> collaboration and consensus building that improving the framework and
> integration entails.
Re: Why Subversive? [message #2364 is a reply to message #1743] Thu, 27 July 2006 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Michal,
You are welcome to update your proposal on the eclipse.org website as
often as you wish - just send us the new file and we'll post it. Most
proposals are updated at least two or three times while the review
process is underway because of new and interesting developments (such as
conversations like this one).

> The conversation you point out seems to appear after our proposal was
> published on Eclipse.org (at least after it was submitted), therefore it
> can't be reflected in our proposal.

- Bjorn
Re: Subversive and Subclipse? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #2394 is a reply to message #2156] Thu, 27 July 2006 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Philippe (and everyone else),
I want to make it very clear that the Eclipse Foundation does not bless
projects - the Eclipse community is the arbiter of what is good and what
is not. Thus these statements are incorrect:

> ... Eclipse.org-sanctioned SVN support ...
> ... Eclipse as a Foundation to privilege one project over the other ...

The Eclipse community - the developers, adopters, and users - these are
the people who choose which projects are successful. This newsgroup
conversation is a great start.

But I just want to be clear that the EMO and the Foundation does not
choose sides - this is not, and should not be, our role.

- Bjorn
Re: javasvn questions? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #2570 is a reply to message #2246] Fri, 28 July 2006 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nitin Dahyabhai is currently offline Nitin Dahyabhai
Messages: 2274
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Gunnar Wagenknecht wrote:
> Anyway, what I really like about Subversive is that it really abstracts
> the "traditional" Subversion concepts especially around branching and
> tagging. IMHO it's really important to make this process much more
> easier and understandable from an UI perspective. I noticed that a lot
> developers actually do have problems interacting with the traditional
> Subversion style of branching and merging. I would love to see (and also
> help building) a tool that makes branch management with Subversion as
> easy as with the ClearCase branch manager.

How does that compare to the way that the Eclipse CVS UI relates to
the cvs command line interface? Is the terminology the same in the
Subversive UI as the svn command line, or is it different?

--
- Nitin


---
Nitin Dahyabhai
Eclipse WTP, IBM
Subversive infrastructure for integration [message #5517 is a reply to message #1756] Tue, 05 September 2006 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Dear Thomas,



As far as you integrated Buckminster project with Subclipse you should be
interested in the infrastructure, which Subversive project provides for such
integration. We prepared special document, which provides an overview of
project architecture and features, which can be reused by other plugins.
Document also provides a source code samples, so can be used as a start
point for integration. You can find document here:
http://www.polarion.org/projects/subversive/docs/Subversive_ Architecture_Overview.pdf



Could you please review of this document? From our point of view created
frameworks and defined extension points, allows simple integration of
Subversive with other plugins. Does it full and sufficient from your point
of view? Now we are under discussion with Subclipse team about foundation
for the merged solution, so your comments and suggestions are very helpful,
because you already have integration experience. I also invite other
community members to share opinion about the subject.



Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
Subversive Team

"Thomas Hallgren" <thomas@tada.se> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:44AD254D.2090106@tada.se...
> Igor Vinnykov wrote:
>> Hello Thomas,
>>
>> I think that Michal already covered most aspects, which requre
>> clarification. From my side I want to ask you about Buckminster project
>> integration with SVN. We want to make Subversive extensible to allow
>> reuse its infrastructure in other projects. The FastTrack project (see it
>> in www.polarion.org), which build on top of Subversive, is used to find
>> current extension points in the Subversive. It will be great to know
>> opinion of other developers, which did such plugins integration. Could
>> you please point us to functionality, which was reused? Thank you.
>>
> We used parts of the Subclipse core package and the svnclientadapter.
> Mainly things needed in order to read files in the remote repository to
> obtain (check out) whole modules.
>
> You can browse the CVS for the plugin in question here:
> http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/org.eclipse.buckmin ster/org.eclipse.buckminster.svn/?cvsroot=Technology_Project
>
> Regards,
> Thomas Hallgren
Subversive integration features [message #5524 is a reply to message #1805] Thu, 07 September 2006 06:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello Mik,

I want to inform you that Subversive 1.1.x versions, which are targeted to
Eclipse 3.2, introduce a support of change sets. Also we have created
Subversive Architecture Overview document, which describes architecture
solutions, extension points and functionality, which can be reused by
other plugins. This document can be helpful for plugin developers, who
want make integration with the Subversive.
Could the Mylar team review Subversive integration features and share
opinion with us? Are integration features sufficient from your point of
view? We are really want to make possible integration with Mylar and other
plugins, so any comments and suggestions are really appreciated.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
Subversive Team
Re: Subversive integration features [message #5531 is a reply to message #5524] Thu, 07 September 2006 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Just a small clarification: Subversive Architecture Overview document is
here -
http://www.polarion.org/projects/subversive/docs/Subversive_ Architecture_Overview.pdf

"Igor Vinnykov" <igor.vinnykov@polarion.org> ???????/???????? ? ????????
?????????: news:461e6631447536da901b24afaff33601$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Hello Mik,
>
> I want to inform you that Subversive 1.1.x versions, which are targeted to
> Eclipse 3.2, introduce a support of change sets. Also we have created
> Subversive Architecture Overview document, which describes architecture
> solutions, extension points and functionality, which can be reused by
> other plugins. This document can be helpful for plugin developers, who
> want make integration with the Subversive.
> Could the Mylar team review Subversive integration features and share
> opinion with us? Are integration features sufficient from your point of
> view? We are really want to make possible integration with Mylar and other
> plugins, so any comments and suggestions are really appreciated.
>
> Best regards,
> Igor Vinnykov
> Subversive Team
>
>
Re: Subversive infrastructure for integration [message #5538 is a reply to message #5517] Thu, 07 September 2006 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Hallgren is currently offline Thomas Hallgren
Messages: 3229
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Igor,
First of all, I'm very pleased to see your efforts to join forces with the subclipse team on
this. I sincerely hope you come up with a good solution. I would very much like to move all
Buckminster projects from CVS to subversion.

I've looked at the architecture, and sure, it will fulfill our needs as far as I can see.
Our requirements are fairly modest. We need to:

1. be able to figure out what tags and branches there are in a repository.
2. read stuff from the repository as an InputStream, preferably without storing it on disk.
3. be able to check out a particular version of a tree to the local system *without*
necessarily binding it as a project in the workspace (the CVS team provider has problems
with this and we where forced to make some fairly ugly workarounds).

Kind Regards,
Thomas Hallgren
The Buckminster Team

Igor Vinnykov wrote:
> Dear Thomas,
>
>
>
> As far as you integrated Buckminster project with Subclipse you should be
> interested in the infrastructure, which Subversive project provides for such
> integration. We prepared special document, which provides an overview of
> project architecture and features, which can be reused by other plugins.
> Document also provides a source code samples, so can be used as a start
> point for integration. You can find document here:
> http://www.polarion.org/projects/subversive/docs/Subversive_ Architecture_Overview.pdf
>
>
>
> Could you please review of this document? From our point of view created
> frameworks and defined extension points, allows simple integration of
> Subversive with other plugins. Does it full and sufficient from your point
> of view? Now we are under discussion with Subclipse team about foundation
> for the merged solution, so your comments and suggestions are very helpful,
> because you already have integration experience. I also invite other
> community members to share opinion about the subject.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Igor Vinnykov
> Subversive Team
>
Re: Subversive infrastructure for integration [message #5547 is a reply to message #5538] Fri, 08 September 2006 06:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Dear Thomas,

We are very pleased to see how forces of many teams and projects are
joined in order to include SVN support to the Eclipse. In addition to
usability and quality of the final solution we should care about its
extensibility and flexibility in order to allow simple integration with
other plugins. We appreciate your comments, because from one side we
understand that are on the right way, but from other side it’s clear that
something should be improved.

We went through Buckminster project requirements and current coverage is
following:

1. Tags and branches detection. Current Subversive solution for tags and
branches is far from perfect, so we will improve it at the next iteration.
Now when you register new location you can define names of branches and
tags folders and if these folders are subfolders of location, they are
treated as tags and branches storage. We want to improve it in order to
allow automatic tags and branches detection in any level under the
location. We are going to create special document how the solution looks,
share it with community and will ask you to provide your comments, as far
as Buckminster project is interested in it.

2. Read repository content as the InputStream. Unfortunately now there is
no such ability – content can be extracted as File, but its extraction as
a stream can be right improvement, so we plan to provide such
functionality.

3. Checkout to the local system, not into the workspace. It’s a good
point, because currently checkout is possible only though the low level
API, which doesn’t benefit from upper layer infrastructure like automatic
error handling, automated problem’s e-mail notification, etc. We will
think how to combine of two approaches together – current ability to
checkout into workspace, provided by high level API and required checkout
outside the workspace.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
Subversive Team



Thomas Hallgren wrote:
> Hi Igor,
> First of all, I'm very pleased to see your efforts to join forces with the
subclipse team on
> this. I sincerely hope you come up with a good solution. I would very much
like to move all
> Buckminster projects from CVS to subversion.

> I've looked at the architecture, and sure, it will fulfill our needs as far
as I can see.
> Our requirements are fairly modest. We need to:

> 1. be able to figure out what tags and branches there are in a repository.
> 2. read stuff from the repository as an InputStream, preferably without
storing it on disk.
> 3. be able to check out a particular version of a tree to the local system
*without*
> necessarily binding it as a project in the workspace (the CVS team provider
has problems
> with this and we where forced to make some fairly ugly workarounds).

> Kind Regards,
> Thomas Hallgren
> The Buckminster Team
Re: Subversive infrastructure for integration [message #5552 is a reply to message #5547] Fri, 08 September 2006 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: thhal.mailblocks.com

Igor Vinnykov wrote:
>
> 1. Tags and branches detection. Current Subversive solution for tags
> and branches is far from perfect, so we will improve it at the next
> iteration.
Great. I guess that's to everyones benefit then :-)


>
> 2. Read repository content as the InputStream. Unfortunately now there
> is no such ability - content can be extracted as File, but its
> extraction as a stream can be right improvement, so we plan to provide
> such functionality.
>
Thanks. We can of course circumvent this by using a temporary file, but
an InputStream is much cleaner.


> 3. Checkout to the local system, not into the workspace. It's a good
> point, because currently checkout is possible only though the low
> level API, which doesn't benefit from upper layer infrastructure like
> automatic error handling, automated problem's e-mail notification,
> etc. We will think how to combine of two approaches together - current
> ability to checkout into workspace, provided by high level API and
> required checkout outside the workspace.
>
This is probably the most important feature for us. Consider the case
when a project contains jar files. A common approach is to have such
jars checked in to the source project. Buckminster however, provides a
way to assemble a project from disparate sources. A typical example is
that the subversion part of a project contain pure source while the jars
are fetched from the Maven repository at ibiblio.org. The assembly is
performed by Buckminster during what we refer to as a 'prebind' action.
This action needs to be performed prior to making Eclipse aware of the
project since we don't want to trigger builds, etc. before everything is
place.

Kind Regards,
Thomas Hallgren
The Buckminster team
Re: Subversive infrastructure for integration [message #5639 is a reply to message #5538] Wed, 04 October 2006 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello Thomas,

I want to announce that Subversive team made a fist step to integrate
Subversive and Buckminster projects. In the latest build 1.1.0 M5 we
implemented following features from request list:
- Read repository content as Streams instead of Files
- Add special interfaces in package
org.polarion.team.svn.core.operation.file, which can work with resources on
the file system in addition to intefaces, which work with Eclipse resources.

Improvements related with trunk-branches-tags will be performed a bit later.
It seems that a set of implemented features is enough to start integration
on the Buckminster side. Is it right? Can someone from Buckminster project
review Subversive features and let us know the opinion.

Thank you.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
Polarion Team

"Thomas Hallgren" <thomas@tada.se> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:44FFEE50.1040102@tada.se...
> Hi Igor,
> First of all, I'm very pleased to see your efforts to join forces with the
> subclipse team on this. I sincerely hope you come up with a good solution.
> I would very much like to move all Buckminster projects from CVS to
> subversion.
>
> I've looked at the architecture, and sure, it will fulfill our needs as
> far as I can see. Our requirements are fairly modest. We need to:
>
> 1. be able to figure out what tags and branches there are in a repository.
> 2. read stuff from the repository as an InputStream, preferably without
> storing it on disk.
> 3. be able to check out a particular version of a tree to the local system
> *without* necessarily binding it as a project in the workspace (the CVS
> team provider has problems with this and we where forced to make some
> fairly ugly workarounds).
>
> Kind Regards,
> Thomas Hallgren
> The Buckminster Team
Re: Subversive infrastructure for integration [message #5644 is a reply to message #5639] Wed, 04 October 2006 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Hallgren is currently offline Thomas Hallgren
Messages: 3229
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Igor,
This is very good news indeed. Especially since one of our users are working on a Subversive
plugin. Thomas, perhaps you'd care to review this and check if it fits in?

Thanks,
Thomas Hallgren

Igor Vinnykov wrote:
> Hello Thomas,
>
> I want to announce that Subversive team made a fist step to integrate
> Subversive and Buckminster projects. In the latest build 1.1.0 M5 we
> implemented following features from request list:
> - Read repository content as Streams instead of Files
> - Add special interfaces in package
> org.polarion.team.svn.core.operation.file, which can work with resources on
> the file system in addition to intefaces, which work with Eclipse resources.
>
> Improvements related with trunk-branches-tags will be performed a bit later.
> It seems that a set of implemented features is enough to start integration
> on the Buckminster side. Is it right? Can someone from Buckminster project
> review Subversive features and let us know the opinion.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Best regards,
> Igor Vinnykov
> Polarion Team
>
> "Thomas Hallgren" <thomas@tada.se> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
> news:44FFEE50.1040102@tada.se...
>> Hi Igor,
>> First of all, I'm very pleased to see your efforts to join forces with the
>> subclipse team on this. I sincerely hope you come up with a good solution.
>> I would very much like to move all Buckminster projects from CVS to
>> subversion.
>>
>> I've looked at the architecture, and sure, it will fulfill our needs as
>> far as I can see. Our requirements are fairly modest. We need to:
>>
>> 1. be able to figure out what tags and branches there are in a repository.
>> 2. read stuff from the repository as an InputStream, preferably without
>> storing it on disk.
>> 3. be able to check out a particular version of a tree to the local system
>> *without* necessarily binding it as a project in the workspace (the CVS
>> team provider has problems with this and we where forced to make some
>> fairly ugly workarounds).
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Thomas Hallgren
>> The Buckminster Team
>
>
Re: javasvn questions? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #6412 is a reply to message #2570] Mon, 13 November 2006 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Dear Nitin,



Generally it's different. Subversive provides two merge modes: SVN standard
merge and Subversive's own interactive merge. Interactive merge is
implemented in the extended version of JavaSVN, which avoids creation of
temporary files during merge and make overall process more simple and
intuitive like CVS merge. Unfortunately this interactive merge is still
experimental feature, but we will continue to work on it to propose it
someday to include into SVN.



As Gunnar said, we also working on improvement functionality related with
branching and tagging to simplify it as much as possible. We found that it's
one of the most complicated areas for users, so its usability should be
improved. In particular now we implemented feature for automatic project
layout detection, which automatically carries out about detection of trunks,
branches and tags location - the same staff, which not evidently defined in
the SVN. It helped much to users, so we will continue improve this area.



Best regards,

Igor Vinnykov

Subversive Team



"Nitin Dahyabhai" <nitind@us.ibm.com>
Re: javasvn questions? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #6431 is a reply to message #2246] Mon, 13 November 2006 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Dear Gunnar,

I want to provide information about the progress in discussed area. First of
all we created abstraction layer, which allows us to plug any SVN client
library. Now Subversive 1.1.x works with extended JavaSVN, standard JavaSVN
and JavaHL.

Because JavaSVN is still not available under EPL license then JavaHL becomes
the only option if project will continue its life as the Eclipse Technology
project. In this case standard and extended JavaSVN libraries will be
available as optional features from external locations like polarion.org
site. In the future if we will decide to implement new pure Java SVN client
library with EPL license then it can replace JavaHL as default library for
SVN Team provider.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
Subversive Team

"Gunnar Wagenknecht" <gunnar@wagenknecht.org> ???????/???????? ? ????????
?????????: news:eaafgs$vc6$1@utils.eclipse.org...
> I'm not an expert in those native library things. But what about linking
> them statically to reduce dependencies on external libs to only those
> that can expected to be installed by a user. For example, for a Windows
> fragment that would mean "ship everything, we can't expect users to mess
> around with DLLs". For Linux users that would mean "make a readme entry
> that he requires lib-xyz". I think that's pretty similar how SWT does it.
>
>
> Actually, I would love to see it happen. A couple of months back I
> really appreciated a pure Java API for Subversion. However, one of the
> Subclipse guys and some other readings partly changed my mind. I tend to
> prefer the Subversion JavaHL bindings now. I agree that is much have to
> have one client API that is developed and maintained together with
> Subversion.
Re: javasvn questions? was [Re: Why Subversive?] [message #6450 is a reply to message #2276] Mon, 13 November 2006 16:23 Go to previous message
Igor Vinnykov is currently offline Igor Vinnykov
Messages: 61
Registered: July 2009
Member
Dear Thomas,

Idea of implementation of the new pure Java SVN client library with EPL
license looks nice and we already discussed it. But now there are some
aspects, which vote against it. Development of client library requires a lot
of efforts, but there are still many things to do with SVN plug-in.
Especially it's important that Eclipse distribution doesn't provide SVN
support. So let's concentrate efforts on this first.
If we will see in future that creation of pure Java library is required then
we probably do this, but now it seems not right time to do it. Instead we
should spend efforts of JavaHL improvements according to proven features
which we implemented on top of the JavaSVN.

Best regards,
Igor Vinnykov
Subversive Team

"Thomas Hallgren" <thomas@tada.se> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:44C8CDD4.6040504@tada.se...
> I discussed the idea of an EPL based pure java client with the Subclipse
> community a couple of weeks ago. Their position is that it would be far to
> much work to maintain a JavaHL like replacement. The protocol is not
> stable yet. Things move all the time. JavaHL contains server functionality
> for running the file-based repository locally.
>
> I'm not convinced it's a bad idea though. Especially if you let go of the
> server functionality and create a pure client.
>
> If I could make a wish, it would be that Subversive and Subclipse merge
> their proposals and that you (Subversive) submit patches to Subclipse to
> make them incorporate the functionality that is unique to Subversive. In
> addition, and in case JavaSVN doesn't relicense, you submit an EPL based,
> client only, pure-java based replacement for JavaHL :-)
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