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source for all rcp apps? [message #20450] Tue, 21 June 2005 08:44 Go to next message
Michael is currently offline Michael
Messages: 40
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello all,

According to the CPL/EPL I could request the source for any RCP
based app if I license the product in binary form. Is this correct?
The company which created the RCP app has to provide it in a
reasonable manner. What does this exactly mean? Does this also mean:
not more expensive than delivery cost?
I could also create new products based on this RCP app and sell
them because its' license has to be compatible with the CPL/EPL?

Michael
Re: source for all rcp apps? [message #20644 is a reply to message #20450] Wed, 22 June 2005 02:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

You're not a lawyer and neither am I, but that's not how I read the EPL.

michael wrote:
> According to the CPL/EPL I could request the source for any RCP
> based app if I license the product in binary form. Is this correct?

No. The app makers are only required to provide source for those
portions of the app that are licensed under the CPL/EPL.

> The company which created the RCP app has to provide it in a
> reasonable manner. What does this exactly mean? Does this also mean:
> not more expensive than delivery cost?

For those portions of the app licensed under the CPL/EPL, either hire a
lawyer or assume reasonable means reasonable: not difficult, not delayed
and not expensive. The Eclipse download site is a good model.

How long you must provide source seems to be an open question, but again
note that the Eclipse download site doesn't provide ready access to
source for versions that are no longer actively supported.

> I could also create new products based on this RCP app and sell
> them because its' license has to be compatible with the CPL/EPL?

Emphatic no. The license of an RCP app only has to be compatible with
the CPL/EPL to the extent that it does not attempt to change the license
for those portions licensed under the CPL/EPL. If you create new
products based on an RCP app released under a commercial license, count
on being sued.

Bob Foster
Re: source for all rcp apps? [message #20653 is a reply to message #20644] Thu, 23 June 2005 05:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael is currently offline Michael
Messages: 40
Registered: July 2009
Member
Hello Bob,

thanks for your answer.

> You're not a lawyer and neither am I, but that's not how I read the EPL.
That's correct ;)

>
> michael wrote:
>> According to the CPL/EPL I could request the source for any RCP
>> based app if I license the product in binary form. Is this correct?
> No. The app makers are only required to provide source for those
> portions of the app that are licensed under the CPL/EPL.
>
>> The company which created the RCP app has to provide it in a
>> reasonable manner. What does this exactly mean? Does this also mean:
>> not more expensive than delivery cost?
>
> For those portions of the app licensed under the CPL/EPL, either hire a
> lawyer or assume reasonable means reasonable: not difficult, not delayed
> and not expensive. The Eclipse download site is a good model.
>
> How long you must provide source seems to be an open question, but again
> note that the Eclipse download site doesn't provide ready access to
> source for versions that are no longer actively supported.
>
>> I could also create new products based on this RCP app and sell
>> them because its' license has to be compatible with the CPL/EPL?
>
> Emphatic no. The license of an RCP app only has to be compatible with
> the CPL/EPL to the extent that it does not attempt to change the license
> for those portions licensed under the CPL/EPL. If you create new
> products based on an RCP app released under a commercial license, count
> on being sued.
->"Contribution" means:
a) in the case of the initial Contributor, the initial code and
documentation distributed under this Agreement, and
b) in the case of each subsequent Contributor:
-> i) changes to the Program, and
-> ii) additions to the Program;
-> "Program" means the Contributions distributed in accordance with this
Agreement.
A Contributor may choose to distribute the Program in object code form under
its own license agreement, provided that:
a) it complies with the terms and conditions of this Agreement; and
b) its license agreement:
iv)states that source code for the Program is available from such
Contributor, and informs licensees how to obtain it in a reasonable
manner on or through a medium customarily used for software exchange.

That's why I am asking. I hope that my english is just too bad or that I
missed something. Building commercial RCP apps would be difficult
otherwise.

Michael
Re: source for all rcp apps? [message #20663 is a reply to message #20653] Thu, 23 June 2005 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

There is no accounting for IBM lawyers, who initially crafted this
confusing little bit of legal doubletalk, but the mere fact that you
package an application with the Program does not make your application a
Contribution and therefore not part of the Program and therefore not
subject to iv.

A common sense way to look at this is to consider all the companies who
ship Eclipse-based applications under commercial licenses and do not
provide source code for their own code.

Bob

michael wrote:
> Hello Bob,
>
> thanks for your answer.
>
>
>>You're not a lawyer and neither am I, but that's not how I read the EPL.
>
> That's correct ;)
>
>
>>michael wrote:
>>
>>>According to the CPL/EPL I could request the source for any RCP
>>>based app if I license the product in binary form. Is this correct?
>>
>>No. The app makers are only required to provide source for those
>>portions of the app that are licensed under the CPL/EPL.
>>
>>
>>>The company which created the RCP app has to provide it in a
>>>reasonable manner. What does this exactly mean? Does this also mean:
>>>not more expensive than delivery cost?
>>
>>For those portions of the app licensed under the CPL/EPL, either hire a
>>lawyer or assume reasonable means reasonable: not difficult, not delayed
>>and not expensive. The Eclipse download site is a good model.
>>
>>How long you must provide source seems to be an open question, but again
>>note that the Eclipse download site doesn't provide ready access to
>>source for versions that are no longer actively supported.
>>
>>
>>>I could also create new products based on this RCP app and sell
>>>them because its' license has to be compatible with the CPL/EPL?
>>
>>Emphatic no. The license of an RCP app only has to be compatible with
>>the CPL/EPL to the extent that it does not attempt to change the license
>>for those portions licensed under the CPL/EPL. If you create new
>>products based on an RCP app released under a commercial license, count
>>on being sued.
>
> ->"Contribution" means:
> a) in the case of the initial Contributor, the initial code and
> documentation distributed under this Agreement, and
> b) in the case of each subsequent Contributor:
> -> i) changes to the Program, and
> -> ii) additions to the Program;
> -> "Program" means the Contributions distributed in accordance with this
> Agreement.
> A Contributor may choose to distribute the Program in object code form under
> its own license agreement, provided that:
> a) it complies with the terms and conditions of this Agreement; and
> b) its license agreement:
> iv)states that source code for the Program is available from such
> Contributor, and informs licensees how to obtain it in a reasonable
> manner on or through a medium customarily used for software exchange.
>
> That's why I am asking. I hope that my english is just too bad or that I
> missed something. Building commercial RCP apps would be difficult
> otherwise.
>
> Michael
Re: source for all rcp apps? [message #21297 is a reply to message #20663] Mon, 18 July 2005 20:21 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

Bob Foster wrote:
> There is no accounting for IBM lawyers, who initially crafted this
> confusing little bit of legal doubletalk, but the mere fact that you
> package an application with the Program does not make your application a
> Contribution and therefore not part of the Program and therefore not
> subject to iv.
>
> A common sense way to look at this is to consider all the companies who
> ship Eclipse-based applications under commercial licenses and do not
> provide source code for their own code.
>
> Bob
>

Further common sense should lead you to ask what sort of deterrent those
companies have to being sued. And if they are relying on the license or
the fact that they can afford a team of lawyers.

I think I well established that I do not like the wording of the EPL.
Its designed by lawyers of a large corporation to provide the type of
protection large corporations typically employ. Lawyers.

Contrast to the LGPL. Still requires lawyers but makes what I think is
a resonable attempt at being clear. Of course there is always SCO...

CL
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