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I am think about EMF [message #17658] Wed, 18 January 2006 08:10 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: allenmacyoung.gmail.com

Maybe we really need EMF.

To show properties in Properties View and to show outline in Outline View, I
think a workflow model is needed. Should we just use the JaWE model? I read
the article "Using GEF with EMF" at eclipse.org. Not bad.
properties of what? [message #17671 is a reply to message #17658] Wed, 18 January 2006 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: vgv8.yahoo.com.br

Hi, Allen,
I think EMF is needed if you are going to change models through EMF ECore
metamodel.

How are you going to reuse JaWE model with EMF? through creating comments in
Java code?
How are you going to databind, distinguish datagrids for introducing
non-shape data (variables - values, etc.) and attach them to Workflow nodes?

Anyway you are going to loose a lot of run-time functionality (how would you
specify there validation or tabbed view?)

Then the metamodel that I see in JaWE Tutorial is not even a model, it's
just conceptual scheme.

Then if you are going to use properties (OF WHAT?) in Property View show
outline (OF WHAT?) how are you going to have RCP (i.e. stand-alone) variant

Guennadi Vanine
"Allen Young" <allenmacyoung@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dqkt62$9id$1@utils.eclipse.org...
> Maybe we really need EMF.
>
> To show properties in Properties View and to show outline in Outline View,
> I think a workflow model is needed. Should we just use the JaWE model? I
> read the article "Using GEF with EMF" at eclipse.org. Not bad.
>
to produce ECore metamodel by Java annotations [message #17684 is a reply to message #17658] Wed, 18 January 2006 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: vgv8.yahoo.com.br

I think it is a good idea to produce EMF ECore model through creating
interfaces with annotations to static generic artifacts and separate them
from dynamic features as well as to separate graphic (shape) data from
non-graphic data.
That is to produce the model and leave the aplication working even with
syncronization and back code generation from model!
This implies really a lot of refractoring of the code and to the better.

I think :
- EclipseUML should be avoided (the code cannot be shared, versioned and
there are a lot of other problems)
- non-graphical editing data should be separated from graphical elements in
model

As a matter of fact it is a good idea to do this with each contribution and
to see commonalities and possibilities to plug-in various models.
The model of IBM Redbook is good for me and I would like to fuse it with
contributions.

This work requires digging into code and might be more close communication
on details.

How shall we share the work and communicate? It seems to me that openwide
has already knowledge of the code

Guennadi Vanine

"Allen Young" <allenmacyoung@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dqkt62$9id$1@utils.eclipse.org...
> Maybe we really need EMF.
>
> To show properties in Properties View and to show outline in Outline View,
> I think a workflow model is needed. Should we just use the JaWE model? I
> read the article "Using GEF with EMF" at eclipse.org. Not bad.
>
Re: properties of what? [message #17697 is a reply to message #17671] Wed, 18 January 2006 09:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: allenmacyoung.gmail.com

For properties view:
Take activity in XPDL for example, activity name, id, position, size and
anything related semantic or notional should be shown in properties view and
alow editing.

For outline view:
User need to navigate through activities or get to know the structure of the
definition file in a tree type. You mentioned that the definition could be
very complex at all of you monitors are not enough. Navigating just on the
diagram is not the right way in this situation while outline could be a
better idea.

I have not read the source code of JaWE's model. I am thinking if it's worth
to use, we can reverse it to UML and generate the EMF model. If it's not
worth to use, we may need to write our own model, in this case, uing EMF
will be helpful. Although the generation process may not be easy. But once
we get the model, it's easier to use it in eclipse.

About RCP, I will say that you do not need to worry about it. When we
developed the WE plugin, it would be very easy to produce a RCP. I have done
this many times, believe me~

By the way, my MSN is bbsss0505@sina.com, connect me.
I remember you wrote your msn in one post, but I'm lasy to find it. :)


"Guennadi Vanine" <vgv8@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:dqkvui$eap$1@utils.eclipse.org...
> Hi, Allen,
> I think EMF is needed if you are going to change models through EMF ECore
> metamodel.
>
> How are you going to reuse JaWE model with EMF? through creating comments
> in Java code?
> How are you going to databind, distinguish datagrids for introducing
> non-shape data (variables - values, etc.) and attach them to Workflow
> nodes?
>
> Anyway you are going to loose a lot of run-time functionality (how would
> you specify there validation or tabbed view?)
>
> Then the metamodel that I see in JaWE Tutorial is not even a model, it's
> just conceptual scheme.
>
> Then if you are going to use properties (OF WHAT?) in Property View show
> outline (OF WHAT?) how are you going to have RCP (i.e. stand-alone)
> variant
>
> Guennadi Vanine
> "Allen Young" <allenmacyoung@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:dqkt62$9id$1@utils.eclipse.org...
>> Maybe we really need EMF.
>>
>> To show properties in Properties View and to show outline in Outline
>> View, I think a workflow model is needed. Should we just use the JaWE
>> model? I read the article "Using GEF with EMF" at eclipse.org. Not bad.
>>
>
>
EMF or other reiliable round-triping (I call them documenting) tool [message #17710 is a reply to message #17697] Wed, 18 January 2006 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: vgv8.yahoo.com.br

Allen,
my MSN is VGV888@HOTMAIL.com
I added you to my list but do not use it for Email
My Em ail is Gennady_Vanin-ECLIPSE@YAHOO.COM.BR

> For properties view:
> Take activity in XPDL for example, activity name, id, position, size and
> anything related semantic or notional should be shown in properties view
> and alow editing.
>
> For outline view:
> User need to navigate through activities or get to know the structure of
> the definition file in a tree type. You mentioned that the definition
> could be very complex at all of you monitors are not enough. Navigating
> just on the diagram is not the right way in this situation while outline
> could be a better idea.
Yes, but you are talking about instances of Wf Nodes (or Wf Elements) but
in model u will have a class (or even metamodel interface to class from
which you will generate real Java, XMI, etc. model)

Even more instances are not known to developer. They are instantiated (drag
abd dropped from package side bar) by user of Designer at run-time.

You cannot navigate any workflow in class diagram, especially if it is not
even a model but a meta-model (EMF ECore model) to generate physical model
(in annotated Java, XMI, etc.).
You cannot generate anything that is not specified in the model and it is
not clear how to associate specified in the model graphical elements of
workflow with non-workflow graphical artifacts and with data.

> I have not read the source code of JaWE's model. I am thinking if it's
> worth to use, we can reverse it to UML and generate the EMF model. If it's
> not worth to use, we may need to write our own model, in this case, uing
> EMF will be helpful. Although the generation process may not be easy. But
> once we get the model, it's easier to use it in eclipse.
Please note that EMF notation is not compatible with other UML tools.
For ex., I use MyEclipse. It makes round-tripping but it cannot show .ecore
files as UML diagram

It is not clear how to interoperate in EMF with other tools and plug-ins.
Even XMI model generated from EMF ECore metamodel cannot be read by other
modeling tools. So, for me it is not obvious that EMF should be used.
If to use EMF I am going to use GMF ECore Editor but it is for Eclipse3.2.4
and Fabrice advised me to run JaWE contribution in Eclipse3.x.
Well, it is again a common problem with Eclipse: this run in this version,
that run in another.

BTW Redbook has samples in Eclipse2.1 and I just commented out any features
that were giving errors in Eclipse3.x

I never read any code. I frequently do not read my own (there are so many
code generation wizards, libraries, etc.). I RUN IT or look into docs

It is worth for:
- refractoring and structuring the contributions to common style, and common
approach to reusable blocks and architecture.
- documenting it in common terms
- getting accustomed with the code/contributions and EMF or GEF

Note that JaWE Tutorial metamodel is just schematic outline (some kind of
package/block diagram) and not even a model

BTW we even do not have a glossary and each time someone writes, he should
give definition or another will not understand the term.
Here I used the terminology of IBM Redbook

Guennadi Vanine
GEF to use and EMF to generate models [message #19571 is a reply to message #17671] Tue, 24 January 2006 23:05 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: vgv8.yahoo.com.br

Let me resume on EMF once more since it is recurring pain.
GEF is modeling tool for creating graphical editors by USING models (it is
based on MVC).
EMF is framework for GENERATING various super/metamodel to 4 underlying
physical models (in Kava, XMI, etc.)

Currently I even do not see any free tools for working with EMF in
Eclipse3.2 and EclipseUML is not usable for previous versions of Eclipse
(requesting to buy EclipseUML Studio for versioning, sharing and even
reading from previous versions)

I do not see what EMF adds conceptually to graphical editors with pure GEF.
Increased complexity, pure theoretical (in abscence of tools) capabilities
to (supposedly convenient) way to centralize hacking/changing/adapting
underlying models at development time. This make sense for a company
producing designers with different purposes (database diagraming, UML
diagraming, workflow diagraming, etc.), i.e. for producing various
designers.

IMHO we target specific ONE kind of designer with underlying universal model
of workflos and need various notation and persistence representations of it.
We do not need generating/hacking with models at development time.

BTW I do not see where EMF is helpful at all even in advanced stages of JWT.
Quite to the contrary, we can reuse the generated code to physical model(s)
(not ECore one) as starting point. For ex., I am quite satisfied with IBM
Redbook workflow model and generated purely graphical designers.

It is just most detailed doc to, first of all, GEF. It is already modeling
framework, quite straightforward.

I'd like to read where I am wrong.

Responding more directly I do not see what EMF adds to property or outline
viewing in comparison to GEF at all.

Guennadi Vanine
"Guennadi Vanine" <vgv8@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:dqkvui$eap$1@utils.eclipse.org...
> Hi, Allen,
> I think EMF is needed if you are going to change models through EMF ECore
> metamodel.
>
> How are you going to reuse JaWE model with EMF? through creating comments
> in Java code?
> How are you going to databind, distinguish datagrids for introducing
> non-shape data (variables - values, etc.) and attach them to Workflow
> nodes?
>
> Anyway you are going to loose a lot of run-time functionality (how would
> you specify there validation or tabbed view?)
>
> Then the metamodel that I see in JaWE Tutorial is not even a model, it's
> just conceptual scheme.
>
> Then if you are going to use properties (OF WHAT?) in Property View show
> outline (OF WHAT?) how are you going to have RCP (i.e. stand-alone)
> variant
>
> Guennadi Vanine
> "Allen Young" <allenmacyoung@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:dqkt62$9id$1@utils.eclipse.org...
>> Maybe we really need EMF.
>>
>> To show properties in Properties View and to show outline in Outline
>> View, I think a workflow model is needed. Should we just use the JaWE
>> model? I read the article "Using GEF with EMF" at eclipse.org. Not bad.
>>
>
>
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