Eclipse Community Forums
Forum Search:

Search      Help    Register    Login    Home
Home » General (non-technical) » Eclipse Foundation » Features in Netbeans and eclipse
Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #17571] Fri, 18 March 2005 02:27 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: pascal.ibm.canada

Since day one, eclipse has been compared to netbeans and reviewers
always conclude their article reminding that whatever the beauty of
eclipse, it is missing support for J2EE, JSP, <copy your favorite
buzzwords here :-)>...

This is still true today out of the box when taking the Eclipse SDK.
However with the growth of the ecosystem and the first releases of the
Webtools project, we now have the potential to put an end to revert the
critics.

To do that, I think that the foundation should make available on their
download page "functionnal eclipse" (sorry I can't find a good word)
that would target a certain audience.
Right now I can think of three downloads:
- Eclipse for pure java and plug-in developers (probably today's eclipse
SDK)
- Eclipse for web developers (Platform + JDT + Webtools (and prereqs)
(what about including an open-source webserver here?))
- Eclipse for C developers (Platform + CDT (and a C compiler on the
platform where it is not obvious that the user has one))


Of course I realize here the headhake caused by the creation of such
partitions, but we have to remember that the audience is not a plug-in
writer but instead a tool that it can do its day to day work.

Any idea comments, or just a deadline ;-)

PaScaL
Re: Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #17675 is a reply to message #17571] Fri, 18 March 2005 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

Pascal Rapicault wrote:
> Since day one, eclipse has been compared to netbeans and reviewers
> always conclude their article reminding that whatever the beauty of
> eclipse, it is missing support for J2EE, JSP, <copy your favorite
> buzzwords here :-)>...
>
> This is still true today out of the box when taking the Eclipse SDK.
> However with the growth of the ecosystem and the first releases of the
> Webtools project, we now have the potential to put an end to revert the
> critics.
>

Its not going to happen. I have finally realized the problem. Eclipse
is too professional and high quality. Eclipse is not missing support
for J2EE, JSP, etc. You just have to pay for it. Why? Because when
people get done writing their plugins, they realize how well they work
and how pretty they are, and the quality of Eclipse, they can get away
with selling it. Vs. writing them for Netbeans you dont get that same
impression, and I doubt many would pay for them so quickly.



> To do that, I think that the foundation should make available on their
> download page "functionnal eclipse" (sorry I can't find a good word)
> that would target a certain audience.
> Right now I can think of three downloads:
> - Eclipse for pure java and plug-in developers (probably today's eclipse
> SDK)
> - Eclipse for web developers (Platform + JDT + Webtools (and prereqs)
> (what about including an open-source webserver here?))
> - Eclipse for C developers (Platform + CDT (and a C compiler on the
> platform where it is not obvious that the user has one))
>
>
> Of course I realize here the headhake caused by the creation of such
> partitions, but we have to remember that the audience is not a plug-in
> writer but instead a tool that it can do its day to day work.
>

Yes, where would you get the free plugins? And I think they would have
to become 'Eclipse' projects to get in a build like that.


> Any idea comments, or just a deadline ;-)
>
> PaScaL
Re: Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #17899 is a reply to message #17675] Mon, 21 March 2005 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lawrence Mandel is currently offline Lawrence Mandel
Messages: 486
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
>Yes, where would you get the free plugins? And I think they would have
>to become 'Eclipse' projects to get in a build like that.

This functionality is already available from Eclipse projects. See the Web
Tools Platform project at http://www.eclipse.org/webtools and the C/C++
Development Tools project at http://www.eclipse.org/cdt/.

I like the idea of making downloading and installing as easy for end users
as possible. Some alternatives to the combined download approach are:

1. Have instructions to install functionality using update manager.
2. Eclipse can create an installer that allows the user to select what
they want to install. I'm thinking of something like the installer that
Cygwin uses but only with higher level functionality. (No need to know
that they're installing EMF, GEF, etc.)
3. Eclipse can introduce install on demand functionality where CDT or Web
tools are installed the first time the tools are selected.

Thoughts?

Lawrence
Re: Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #17956 is a reply to message #17571] Sat, 26 March 2005 03:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: jamesdcarroll.hotmaill.com

I have previously suggested on the Update mailing list the notion of
differential distribution. I got some great initial response from the Update
team and they seemed interested in pursuing it. The basic idea was that
instead of just hitting an update site generically, UserID and Password data
could be passed to a central repository/service that would dish out what you
really needed based on your role. For the general public they could be
identified simply as "Java Developer" or "Web Developer" or some other role.
And when you start Eclipse it could hit the Eclipse site and download/
update those plugins that are relevant to your tasks.

But it doesn't have to stop there. Let's say that you are the CIO of a
company with lots of IT folk that do lots of different things. You'd want
the approved UML plug-in distributed to your analysts, but maybe not your
testers. And your tester to get that snazzy new testing plug-in, but the not
the guys leading the JAD sessions. By having a central repository and the
appropriate server software, you could effectively manage who gets what.

Now abstract that out one more level and you're the CEO. Not only can third
party plugins be centrally managed, but in house ones as well. And once
folks realize that we really don't need yet another Ant plug-in and there
are word processing plugins and spreadsheet plugins and all kinds of other
things. It will evolve from a framework and become a platform.

I know its a grand vision. And I will be the first to admit that I have not
followed up on my initial request to the Update team (but in my defense my
company just went through a mainframe update that required me to rewrite
about 150 programs, so I've been really busy/exhausted). Hopefully soon I
will be able to wallow in the Update code and really get it going.

At first blush if Eclipse can tap a web site to get new updates, I can't see
why it can't also pass UserID and Password info as well. Once the server has
that it can give you the plugins that are right for you.



"Pascal Rapicault" <pascal@ibm.canada> wrote in message
news:d1deas$7m7$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Since day one, eclipse has been compared to netbeans and reviewers
> always conclude their article reminding that whatever the beauty of
> eclipse, it is missing support for J2EE, JSP, <copy your favorite
> buzzwords here :-)>...
>
> This is still true today out of the box when taking the Eclipse SDK.
> However with the growth of the ecosystem and the first releases of the
> Webtools project, we now have the potential to put an end to revert the
> critics.
>
> To do that, I think that the foundation should make available on their
> download page "functionnal eclipse" (sorry I can't find a good word)
> that would target a certain audience.
> Right now I can think of three downloads:
> - Eclipse for pure java and plug-in developers (probably today's eclipse
> SDK)
> - Eclipse for web developers (Platform + JDT + Webtools (and prereqs)
> (what about including an open-source webserver here?))
> - Eclipse for C developers (Platform + CDT (and a C compiler on the
> platform where it is not obvious that the user has one))
>
>
> Of course I realize here the headhake caused by the creation of such
> partitions, but we have to remember that the audience is not a plug-in
> writer but instead a tool that it can do its day to day work.
>
> Any idea comments, or just a deadline ;-)
>
> PaScaL
Re: Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #17994 is a reply to message #17956] Sat, 26 March 2005 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

James D Carroll wrote:
> I have previously suggested on the Update mailing list the notion of
> differential distribution. I got some great initial response from the Update
> team and they seemed interested in pursuing it. The basic idea was that
> instead of just hitting an update site generically, UserID and Password data
> could be passed to a central repository/service that would dish out what you
> really needed based on your role. For the general public they could be
> identified simply as "Java Developer" or "Web Developer" or some other role.
> And when you start Eclipse it could hit the Eclipse site and download/
> update those plugins that are relevant to your tasks.
>
> But it doesn't have to stop there. Let's say that you are the CIO of a
> company with lots of IT folk that do lots of different things. You'd want
> the approved UML plug-in distributed to your analysts, but maybe not your
> testers. And your tester to get that snazzy new testing plug-in, but the not
> the guys leading the JAD sessions. By having a central repository and the
> appropriate server software, you could effectively manage who gets what.
>
> Now abstract that out one more level and you're the CEO. Not only can third
> party plugins be centrally managed, but in house ones as well. And once
> folks realize that we really don't need yet another Ant plug-in and there
> are word processing plugins and spreadsheet plugins and all kinds of other
> things. It will evolve from a framework and become a platform.
>
> I know its a grand vision. And I will be the first to admit that I have not
> followed up on my initial request to the Update team (but in my defense my
> company just went through a mainframe update that required me to rewrite
> about 150 programs, so I've been really busy/exhausted). Hopefully soon I
> will be able to wallow in the Update code and really get it going.
>
> At first blush if Eclipse can tap a web site to get new updates, I can't see
> why it can't also pass UserID and Password info as well. Once the server has
> that it can give you the plugins that are right for you.
>
>
>
> "Pascal Rapicault" <pascal@ibm.canada> wrote in message
> news:d1deas$7m7$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>>Since day one, eclipse has been compared to netbeans and reviewers
>>always conclude their article reminding that whatever the beauty of
>>eclipse, it is missing support for J2EE, JSP, <copy your favorite
>>buzzwords here :-)>...
>>
>>This is still true today out of the box when taking the Eclipse SDK.
>>However with the growth of the ecosystem and the first releases of the
>>Webtools project, we now have the potential to put an end to revert the
>>critics.
>>
>>To do that, I think that the foundation should make available on their
>>download page "functionnal eclipse" (sorry I can't find a good word)
>>that would target a certain audience.
>>Right now I can think of three downloads:
>>- Eclipse for pure java and plug-in developers (probably today's eclipse
>>SDK)
>>- Eclipse for web developers (Platform + JDT + Webtools (and prereqs)
>>(what about including an open-source webserver here?))
>>- Eclipse for C developers (Platform + CDT (and a C compiler on the
>>platform where it is not obvious that the user has one))
>>
>>
>>Of course I realize here the headhake caused by the creation of such
>>partitions, but we have to remember that the audience is not a plug-in
>>writer but instead a tool that it can do its day to day work.
>>
>>Any idea comments, or just a deadline ;-)
>>
>>PaScaL
>
>
>

Well IT departments don't like to be polite. They like to shove updates
down your throat right in the middle of a release...Nevertheless, it
sounds like a good idea.

CL
Re: Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #18007 is a reply to message #17571] Sun, 27 March 2005 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
We are definitely looking into how we could make something like this happen.
I hope that we will have some sort of proposal available within the next few
weeks.

But I think supporting this requires creating some new packaged
configurations. Just lumping together some affiliated features into a
download won't quite give us the user experience we want.....which is to
have a good "out of the box" experience.

One other point. The idea that "...the foundation should..." do X, Y & Z is
appealing. But the Foundation has basically no technical resources. How we
go about solving issues like this is recruiting people and companies to help
in the open source projects.

"Pascal Rapicault" <pascal@ibm.canada> wrote in message
news:d1deas$7m7$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Since day one, eclipse has been compared to netbeans and reviewers always
> conclude their article reminding that whatever the beauty of eclipse, it
> is missing support for J2EE, JSP, <copy your favorite buzzwords here
> :-)>...
>
> This is still true today out of the box when taking the Eclipse SDK.
> However with the growth of the ecosystem and the first releases of the
> Webtools project, we now have the potential to put an end to revert the
> critics.
>
> To do that, I think that the foundation should make available on their
> download page "functionnal eclipse" (sorry I can't find a good word) that
> would target a certain audience.
> Right now I can think of three downloads:
> - Eclipse for pure java and plug-in developers (probably today's eclipse
> SDK)
> - Eclipse for web developers (Platform + JDT + Webtools (and prereqs)
> (what about including an open-source webserver here?))
> - Eclipse for C developers (Platform + CDT (and a C compiler on the
> platform where it is not obvious that the user has one))
>
>
> Of course I realize here the headhake caused by the creation of such
> partitions, but we have to remember that the audience is not a plug-in
> writer but instead a tool that it can do its day to day work.
>
> Any idea comments, or just a deadline ;-)
>
> PaScaL
Re: Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #18018 is a reply to message #17571] Sun, 27 March 2005 20:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
We are definitely looking into providing some sort of solution along these
lines. I hope that we will have a proposal available within the next couple
of weeks.

I am sure that saying "..the Foundation should..." makes it sound easy. But
the Foundation basically has no technical resources. So to make something
like this happen we are working on recruiting people and/or companies to
help lead a project in the area. That's really the only way we can make
progress on issues like this.


"Pascal Rapicault" <pascal@ibm.canada> wrote in message
news:d1deas$7m7$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Since day one, eclipse has been compared to netbeans and reviewers always
> conclude their article reminding that whatever the beauty of eclipse, it
> is missing support for J2EE, JSP, <copy your favorite buzzwords here
> :-)>...
>
> This is still true today out of the box when taking the Eclipse SDK.
> However with the growth of the ecosystem and the first releases of the
> Webtools project, we now have the potential to put an end to revert the
> critics.
>
> To do that, I think that the foundation should make available on their
> download page "functionnal eclipse" (sorry I can't find a good word) that
> would target a certain audience.
> Right now I can think of three downloads:
> - Eclipse for pure java and plug-in developers (probably today's eclipse
> SDK)
> - Eclipse for web developers (Platform + JDT + Webtools (and prereqs)
> (what about including an open-source webserver here?))
> - Eclipse for C developers (Platform + CDT (and a C compiler on the
> platform where it is not obvious that the user has one))
>
>
> Of course I realize here the headhake caused by the creation of such
> partitions, but we have to remember that the audience is not a plug-in
> writer but instead a tool that it can do its day to day work.
>
> Any idea comments, or just a deadline ;-)
>
> PaScaL
Re: Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #18032 is a reply to message #18007] Mon, 28 March 2005 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

I'm used to two responses to a question where the responder forgot to
say something or has to correct what was said, but kinda surprised when
the second response omits the best part of the first.

Right the first time, Mike. What Eclipse should have is a J2EE
configuration. This would at least change the discussion from Netbeans
(or X) has something but Eclipse has nothing to a fair comparison of the
virtues of each tool. Sure, the J2EE configuration would increase the
Eclipse footprint, maybe double it, but that goes with the territory.

Bob Foster

Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> We are definitely looking into how we could make something like this happen.
> I hope that we will have some sort of proposal available within the next few
> weeks.
>
> But I think supporting this requires creating some new packaged
> configurations. Just lumping together some affiliated features into a
> download won't quite give us the user experience we want.....which is to
> have a good "out of the box" experience.
>
> One other point. The idea that "...the foundation should..." do X, Y & Z is
> appealing. But the Foundation has basically no technical resources. How we
> go about solving issues like this is recruiting people and companies to help
> in the open source projects.
>
> "Pascal Rapicault" <pascal@ibm.canada> wrote in message
> news:d1deas$7m7$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>>Since day one, eclipse has been compared to netbeans and reviewers always
>>conclude their article reminding that whatever the beauty of eclipse, it
>>is missing support for J2EE, JSP, <copy your favorite buzzwords here
>>:-)>...
>>
>>This is still true today out of the box when taking the Eclipse SDK.
>>However with the growth of the ecosystem and the first releases of the
>>Webtools project, we now have the potential to put an end to revert the
>>critics.
>>
>>To do that, I think that the foundation should make available on their
>>download page "functionnal eclipse" (sorry I can't find a good word) that
>>would target a certain audience.
>>Right now I can think of three downloads:
>>- Eclipse for pure java and plug-in developers (probably today's eclipse
>>SDK)
>>- Eclipse for web developers (Platform + JDT + Webtools (and prereqs)
>>(what about including an open-source webserver here?))
>>- Eclipse for C developers (Platform + CDT (and a C compiler on the
>>platform where it is not obvious that the user has one))
>>
>>
>>Of course I realize here the headhake caused by the creation of such
>>partitions, but we have to remember that the audience is not a plug-in
>>writer but instead a tool that it can do its day to day work.
>>
>>Any idea comments, or just a deadline ;-)
>>
>>PaScaL
>
>
>
Re: Features in Netbeans and eclipse [message #18058 is a reply to message #18032] Mon, 28 March 2005 13:58 Go to previous message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Yep. My bad. Sorry. I yielded to frustration after I had thought I had lost
the first post due to a bogus error message.

I shouldn't read newsgroups on Easter Sunday after promising the family that
I wouldn't work that day ;-)

"Bob Foster" <bob@objfac.com> wrote in message
news:d28d13$28s$1@news.eclipse.org...
> I'm used to two responses to a question where the responder forgot to say
> something or has to correct what was said, but kinda surprised when the
> second response omits the best part of the first.
>
> Right the first time, Mike. What Eclipse should have is a J2EE
> configuration. This would at least change the discussion from Netbeans (or
> X) has something but Eclipse has nothing to a fair comparison of the
> virtues of each tool. Sure, the J2EE configuration would increase the
> Eclipse footprint, maybe double it, but that goes with the territory.
>
> Bob Foster
>
> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>> We are definitely looking into how we could make something like this
>> happen. I hope that we will have some sort of proposal available within
>> the next few weeks.
>>
>> But I think supporting this requires creating some new packaged
>> configurations. Just lumping together some affiliated features into a
>> download won't quite give us the user experience we want.....which is to
>> have a good "out of the box" experience.
>>
>> One other point. The idea that "...the foundation should..." do X, Y & Z
>> is appealing. But the Foundation has basically no technical resources.
>> How we go about solving issues like this is recruiting people and
>> companies to help in the open source projects.
>>
>> "Pascal Rapicault" <pascal@ibm.canada> wrote in message
>> news:d1deas$7m7$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>
>>>Since day one, eclipse has been compared to netbeans and reviewers always
>>>conclude their article reminding that whatever the beauty of eclipse, it
>>>is missing support for J2EE, JSP, <copy your favorite buzzwords here
>>>:-)>...
>>>
>>>This is still true today out of the box when taking the Eclipse SDK.
>>>However with the growth of the ecosystem and the first releases of the
>>>Webtools project, we now have the potential to put an end to revert the
>>>critics.
>>>
>>>To do that, I think that the foundation should make available on their
>>>download page "functionnal eclipse" (sorry I can't find a good word) that
>>>would target a certain audience.
>>>Right now I can think of three downloads:
>>>- Eclipse for pure java and plug-in developers (probably today's eclipse
>>>SDK)
>>>- Eclipse for web developers (Platform + JDT + Webtools (and prereqs)
>>>(what about including an open-source webserver here?))
>>>- Eclipse for C developers (Platform + CDT (and a C compiler on the
>>>platform where it is not obvious that the user has one))
>>>
>>>
>>>Of course I realize here the headhake caused by the creation of such
>>>partitions, but we have to remember that the audience is not a plug-in
>>>writer but instead a tool that it can do its day to day work.
>>>
>>>Any idea comments, or just a deadline ;-)
>>>
>>>PaScaL
>>
>>
Previous Topic:CALL FOR SPEAKERS - EclipseWorld 2005
Next Topic:Inactive projects
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Wed Oct 22 13:59:15 GMT 2014

Powered by FUDForum. Page generated in 0.03256 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Powered by: FUDforum 3.0.2.
Copyright ©2001-2010 FUDforum Bulletin Board Software