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Q: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #16796] Fri, 11 March 2005 13:55 Go to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: constantine.plotnikov.gmail.com

I have read several press releases about Borland joining Eclipse etc.
And I still have not got what Borland is going to contribute (if it is
going). My guesses range from Together for Eclipe to some GEF replacement.

Could someone who was at EclipseCON and heard from Borland write about
it or direct me to appropriate resource?

Constantine
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #16804 is a reply to message #16796] Fri, 11 March 2005 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike MilinkovichFriend
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
There will be some announcements coming up over the next couple of weeks on
what project Borland will be leading. It will definitely be in the modeling
area.

"Constantine Plotnikov" <constantine.plotnikov@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d0s7te$kvt$1@www.eclipse.org...
>I have read several press releases about Borland joining Eclipse etc. And I
>still have not got what Borland is going to contribute (if it is going). My
>guesses range from Together for Eclipe to some GEF replacement.
>
> Could someone who was at EclipseCON and heard from Borland write about it
> or direct me to appropriate resource?
>
> Constantine
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #16835 is a reply to message #16804] Sat, 12 March 2005 07:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: jamesdcarroll.hotmaill.com

I sincerely hope that it will not involve replacing GEF. Seems to me that
lots of folks have put a lot effort into GEF. I'd hate to see it tossed
aside in favor of an graphical API in its death throws due to Borland's
ineptness.




"Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
news:d0t6d9$hka$1@www.eclipse.org...
> There will be some announcements coming up over the next couple of weeks
on
> what project Borland will be leading. It will definitely be in the
modeling
> area.
>
> "Constantine Plotnikov" <constantine.plotnikov@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:d0s7te$kvt$1@www.eclipse.org...
> >I have read several press releases about Borland joining Eclipse etc. And
I
> >still have not got what Borland is going to contribute (if it is going).
My
> >guesses range from Together for Eclipe to some GEF replacement.
> >
> > Could someone who was at EclipseCON and heard from Borland write about
it
> > or direct me to appropriate resource?
> >
> > Constantine
>
>
Re: Q: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #16843 is a reply to message #16796] Sat, 12 March 2005 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Genady Beryozkin is currently offline Genady BeryozkinFriend
Messages: 410
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I have asked one of their technical reps whether they will switch their
IDE to be based on Eclipse,
and the answer was "not in the foreseeable future".

I really like Together's modeling features and when I last evaluated it
I found it superior to many other
IDEs. I hope they will make significant parts of it available as an open
source project :)

Genady

Genady Beryozkin
http://www.genady.net/



Constantine Plotnikov wrote:

> I have read several press releases about Borland joining Eclipse etc.
> And I still have not got what Borland is going to contribute (if it is
> going). My guesses range from Together for Eclipe to some GEF
> replacement.
>
> Could someone who was at EclipseCON and heard from Borland write about
> it or direct me to appropriate resource?
>
> Constantine
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #16908 is a reply to message #16835] Sun, 13 March 2005 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike MilinkovichFriend
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Ouch. How did you jump to a scenario like that?

The conversations I've had with the Borland people have focused on
*complementing* the existing GEF and EMF projects. They are also big fans of
those projects.

And the people I've talked to there certainly did not seem inept to me.

"James D Carroll" <jamesdcarroll@hotmaill.com> wrote in message
news:d0u77s$97s$1@www.eclipse.org...
>I sincerely hope that it will not involve replacing GEF. Seems to me that
> lots of folks have put a lot effort into GEF. I'd hate to see it tossed
> aside in favor of an graphical API in its death throws due to Borland's
> ineptness.
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
> news:d0t6d9$hka$1@www.eclipse.org...
>> There will be some announcements coming up over the next couple of weeks
> on
>> what project Borland will be leading. It will definitely be in the
> modeling
>> area.
>>
>> "Constantine Plotnikov" <constantine.plotnikov@gmail.com> wrote in
>> message
>> news:d0s7te$kvt$1@www.eclipse.org...
>> >I have read several press releases about Borland joining Eclipse etc.
>> >And
> I
>> >still have not got what Borland is going to contribute (if it is going).
> My
>> >guesses range from Together for Eclipe to some GEF replacement.
>> >
>> > Could someone who was at EclipseCON and heard from Borland write about
> it
>> > or direct me to appropriate resource?
>> >
>> > Constantine
>>
>>
>
>
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #17054 is a reply to message #16908] Tue, 15 March 2005 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Burnette is currently offline Ed BurnetteFriend
Messages: 279
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I was confused about that too. In mail proposing the Graphical Modeling
Framework project, Bjorn writes: "In essence, GMF will form a generative
bridge between EMF and GEF, while a future project goal may be to remove the
dependency on EMF and/or GEF."

--
Ed

"Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
news:d11k8u$ao8$1@www.eclipse.org...

Ouch. How did you jump to a scenario like that?

The conversations I've had with the Borland people have focused on
*complementing* the existing GEF and EMF projects. They are also big fans of
those projects.
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #17083 is a reply to message #17054] Tue, 15 March 2005 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-BensonFriend
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Ah, neither I nor Borland meant to confuse anyone. What Borland means is
that the first versions of GMF will depend on EMF and GEF. In future
versions, those dependencies might be abstracted through adapters and
thus GMF would be able to work with other modeling frameworks and other
graphical frameworks. The same way that the Eclipse 1.0 Team support
was CVS only and Eclipse 3.0 can work with multiple repository providers.

> I was confused about that too. In mail proposing the Graphical Modeling
> Framework project, Bjorn writes: "In essence, GMF will form a generative
> bridge between EMF and GEF, while a future project goal may be to remove the
> dependency on EMF and/or GEF."
>
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #17111 is a reply to message #17083] Tue, 15 March 2005 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: james.willans.xactium.com

Bjorn,

Where can I find details of this proposal?

James

Bjorn Freeman-Benson wrote:

> Ah, neither I nor Borland meant to confuse anyone. What Borland means is
> that the first versions of GMF will depend on EMF and GEF. In future
> versions, those dependencies might be abstracted through adapters and
> thus GMF would be able to work with other modeling frameworks and other
> graphical frameworks. The same way that the Eclipse 1.0 Team support
> was CVS only and Eclipse 3.0 can work with multiple repository providers.

>> I was confused about that too. In mail proposing the Graphical Modeling
>> Framework project, Bjorn writes: "In essence, GMF will form a generative
>> bridge between EMF and GEF, while a future project goal may be to remove
the
>> dependency on EMF and/or GEF."
>>
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #17169 is a reply to message #16908] Wed, 16 March 2005 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: jamesdcarroll.hotmaill.com

Well, "inept" might be a bit harsh. But you can find an similar appraisal of
Borland and its outlook here (page 45):
http://68.236.189.240/download/images/SDTimes121.pdf

The last two weeks have certainly been exciting for Eclipse with the number
of companies coming on board.

But I wonder:
Borland bought Together, yet now wants to be a part of Eclipse in the
GEF/EMF realm. Why?
Sybase has Powerbuilder and now wants to be a part of Eclipse? Why?

CA, WindRiver.... all of these are "for profit" companies with lots of
stockholders for whom the word Eclipse is either a dazzling astrological
event or a tasty Wrigly product (possibly both).

I'm more than willing to admit my tendancy to be rash, but I can't help but
wonder what's in it for them? Or maybe that's already been answered:

"Once we've converted developers from hand coded JSP and Java to using a
tool [BIRT] we've have a good shot at _MAKING_ them use our commercial [paid
for] reporting products as well."
Mike Thoma, vice president of product marketing
Actuate (BIRT Project leader)
http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=D35F3CBE-9953 -4641-A9D7-975DA5F8D975
emphasis mine; link from Eclipse home page.

Very best wishes,
James

"Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
news:d11k8u$ao8$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Ouch. How did you jump to a scenario like that?
>
> The conversations I've had with the Borland people have focused on
> *complementing* the existing GEF and EMF projects. They are also big fans
of
> those projects.
>
> And the people I've talked to there certainly did not seem inept to me.
>
> "James D Carroll" <jamesdcarroll@hotmaill.com> wrote in message
> news:d0u77s$97s$1@www.eclipse.org...
> >I sincerely hope that it will not involve replacing GEF. Seems to me that
> > lots of folks have put a lot effort into GEF. I'd hate to see it tossed
> > aside in favor of an graphical API in its death throws due to Borland's
> > ineptness.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
> > news:d0t6d9$hka$1@www.eclipse.org...
> >> There will be some announcements coming up over the next couple of
weeks
> > on
> >> what project Borland will be leading. It will definitely be in the
> > modeling
> >> area.
> >>
> >> "Constantine Plotnikov" <constantine.plotnikov@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> message
> >> news:d0s7te$kvt$1@www.eclipse.org...
> >> >I have read several press releases about Borland joining Eclipse etc.
> >> >And
> > I
> >> >still have not got what Borland is going to contribute (if it is
going).
> > My
> >> >guesses range from Together for Eclipe to some GEF replacement.
> >> >
> >> > Could someone who was at EclipseCON and heard from Borland write
about
> > it
> >> > or direct me to appropriate resource?
> >> >
> >> > Constantine
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #17197 is a reply to message #17169] Wed, 16 March 2005 02:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Burnette is currently offline Ed BurnetteFriend
Messages: 279
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
IMHO, there's no mystery here. The smartest organizations (and people) are
nimble, willing to change directions even if it means leaving something
behind that they understand and have invested a lot in. Your biggest
investment is between your ears, and whatever you learned from the previous
generation isn't going to go away. Look at all the IDE work OTI did before
Eclipse that they had to "throw away".

--
Ed Burnette
www.eclipsepowered.org

"James D Carroll" <jamesdcarroll@hotmaill.com> wrote in message
news:d181p7$5u7$1@www.eclipse.org...
But I wonder:
Borland bought Together, yet now wants to be a part of Eclipse in the
GEF/EMF realm. Why?
Sybase has Powerbuilder and now wants to be a part of Eclipse? Why?
CA, WindRiver.... all of these are "for profit" companies with lots of
stockholders for whom the word Eclipse is either a dazzling astrological
event or a tasty Wrigly product (possibly both).
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #17226 is a reply to message #17111] Wed, 16 March 2005 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-BensonFriend
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Not to worry - you couldn't find it because the proposal had not yet
been posted. However, as of a few minutes ago, I have posted the GMF
proposal on the eclipse.org website at
http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/eclipse-gmf/index.html and created the
new eclipse.technology.gmf newsgroup for discussions.

> Where can I find details of this proposal?

*Bjorn Freeman-Benson*
Technical Director, Open Source Process and Infrastructure
Eclipse Foundation
Re: Borland contribution for Eclipse? [message #17505 is a reply to message #17169] Wed, 16 March 2005 18:04 Go to previous message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike MilinkovichFriend
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
There is no way that Actuate can *make* someone use their commercial
product. Once it is EPL it is EPL. I know Mike Thoma well, and I am sure it
was just a poor choice of words on his part. And even with the words he did
choose, you can elect to interpret what he said as benign unless you're a
conspiracy theory junky :-D

Eclipse has a novel approach to doing business-supported open source in an
open and transparent way. That is not news. And I happen to think it works
very well.

What's in it for the new members? Well, the same thing that was in it for
IBM, HP, SAP, Intel, QNX and all the other companies that supported the
Foundation from its inception: the ability to use and help evolve a great
platform for them to build their tools and frameworks. The opportunity to
lead a project and contribute to open source in a way that is beneficial to
both the community and their business.

"James D Carroll" <jamesdcarroll@hotmaill.com> wrote in message
news:d181p7$5u7$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Well, "inept" might be a bit harsh. But you can find an similar appraisal
> of
> Borland and its outlook here (page 45):
> http://68.236.189.240/download/images/SDTimes121.pdf
>
> The last two weeks have certainly been exciting for Eclipse with the
> number
> of companies coming on board.
>
> But I wonder:
> Borland bought Together, yet now wants to be a part of Eclipse in the
> GEF/EMF realm. Why?
> Sybase has Powerbuilder and now wants to be a part of Eclipse? Why?
>
> CA, WindRiver.... all of these are "for profit" companies with lots of
> stockholders for whom the word Eclipse is either a dazzling astrological
> event or a tasty Wrigly product (possibly both).
>
> I'm more than willing to admit my tendancy to be rash, but I can't help
> but
> wonder what's in it for them? Or maybe that's already been answered:
>
> "Once we've converted developers from hand coded JSP and Java to using a
> tool [BIRT] we've have a good shot at _MAKING_ them use our commercial
> [paid
> for] reporting products as well."
> Mike Thoma, vice president of product marketing
> Actuate (BIRT Project leader)
> http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=D35F3CBE-9953 -4641-A9D7-975DA5F8D975
> emphasis mine; link from Eclipse home page.
>
> Very best wishes,
> James
>
> "Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
> news:d11k8u$ao8$1@www.eclipse.org...
>> Ouch. How did you jump to a scenario like that?
>>
>> The conversations I've had with the Borland people have focused on
>> *complementing* the existing GEF and EMF projects. They are also big fans
> of
>> those projects.
>>
>> And the people I've talked to there certainly did not seem inept to me.
>>
>> "James D Carroll" <jamesdcarroll@hotmaill.com> wrote in message
>> news:d0u77s$97s$1@www.eclipse.org...
>> >I sincerely hope that it will not involve replacing GEF. Seems to me
>> >that
>> > lots of folks have put a lot effort into GEF. I'd hate to see it tossed
>> > aside in favor of an graphical API in its death throws due to Borland's
>> > ineptness.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
>> > news:d0t6d9$hka$1@www.eclipse.org...
>> >> There will be some announcements coming up over the next couple of
> weeks
>> > on
>> >> what project Borland will be leading. It will definitely be in the
>> > modeling
>> >> area.
>> >>
>> >> "Constantine Plotnikov" <constantine.plotnikov@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >> message
>> >> news:d0s7te$kvt$1@www.eclipse.org...
>> >> >I have read several press releases about Borland joining Eclipse etc.
>> >> >And
>> > I
>> >> >still have not got what Borland is going to contribute (if it is
> going).
>> > My
>> >> >guesses range from Together for Eclipe to some GEF replacement.
>> >> >
>> >> > Could someone who was at EclipseCON and heard from Borland write
> about
>> > it
>> >> > or direct me to appropriate resource?
>> >> >
>> >> > Constantine
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
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