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Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #16752] Tue, 08 March 2005 23:21 Go to next message
Genady Beryozkin is currently offline Genady Beryozkin
Messages: 410
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
"Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"

Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html

A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse Getting
Slower?")
http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People praise
netbeans for its
performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they improved
it a lot).

Genady

--
Genady Beryozkin
http://www.genady.net/
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #16802 is a reply to message #16752] Fri, 11 March 2005 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

Genady wrote:
> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>
> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>
> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse Getting
> Slower?")
> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People praise
> netbeans for its
> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they improved
> it a lot).
>
> Genady
>

I bet they will find it quite easy and elegant to import an Eclipse
project. Probably the easiest part of the importiong process will be
the parsing of Eclipse, lol...


CL
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #16808 is a reply to message #16752] Fri, 11 March 2005 23:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people who
read this forum?

I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is good
for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
(http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone want to
take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things you really like
about Eclipse?

Mike Milinkovich
Executive Director
Eclipse Foundation


"Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>
> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>
> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse Getting
> Slower?")
> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People praise
> netbeans for its
> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they improved
> it a lot).
>
> Genady
>
> --
> Genady Beryozkin
> http://www.genady.net/
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #16812 is a reply to message #16808] Sat, 12 March 2005 05:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: SamMesh.gmail.com

Regarding *3. Projects Based on Ant*: there is a chance to contribute to
the article on *automating plug-in builds*. Inside Eclipse and outside,
for example, using Ant:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=87151

--
Sam Mesh

Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people who
> read this forum?
>
> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is good
> for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone want to
> take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things you really like
> about Eclipse?
>
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation
>
>
> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>>A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>"Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>
>>Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>
>>A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse Getting
>>Slower?")
>>http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People praise
>>netbeans for its
>>performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they improved
>>it a lot).
>>
>>Genady
>>
>>--
>>Genady Beryozkin
>>http://www.genady.net/
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #16822 is a reply to message #16808] Sat, 12 March 2005 05:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes you
wonder what the deal is.

Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of the
reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a particular
library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was easier to
develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not true anymore...I
REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can trace object
lifecycles with too.

CL


Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people who
> read this forum?
>
> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is good
> for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone want to
> take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things you really like
> about Eclipse?
>
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation
>
>
> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>>A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>"Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>
>>Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>
>>A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse Getting
>>Slower?")
>>http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People praise
>>netbeans for its
>>performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they improved
>>it a lot).
>>
>>Genady
>>
>>--
>>Genady Beryozkin
>>http://www.genady.net/
>
>
>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #16878 is a reply to message #16822] Sun, 13 March 2005 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone want
to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?

"CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in message
news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes you
> wonder what the deal is.
>
> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of the
> reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a particular
> library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was easier to
> develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not true anymore...I
> REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can trace object
> lifecycles with too.
>
> CL
>
>
> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people who
>> read this forum?
>>
>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is good
>> for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone want to
>> take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things you really
>> like about Eclipse?
>>
>> Mike Milinkovich
>> Executive Director
>> Eclipse Foundation
>>
>>
>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>
>>>A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>"Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>
>>>Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>
>>>A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse Getting
>>>Slower?")
>>>http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People praise
>>>netbeans for its
>>>performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they improved
>>>it a lot).
>>>
>>>Genady
>>>
>>>--
>>>Genady Beryozkin
>>>http://www.genady.net/
>>
>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #16937 is a reply to message #16878] Sun, 13 March 2005 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone want
> to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?

No problem. ;-}

10. The Java editor is only broken three months a year.

9. I like the symbolism in the logo.

8. It's a thrill to ride the API roller-coaster.

7. It's intellectually stimulating to debate the committers about what
exactly the old API covered.

6. Two words: toolbar overflow.

5. You can use the code to develop any application you want as long as
it looks just like Eclipse.

4. Code documentation is for wimps!

3. In my dreams I'm chased by angry red boxes with white x's.

2. I like to hear OOP zealots squeal when they see SWT.

And the number one reason I like Eclipse:

1. More tabs!


Bob Foster

> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>>Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes you
>>wonder what the deal is.
>>
>>Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of the
>>reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a particular
>>library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was easier to
>>develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not true anymore...I
>>REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can trace object
>>lifecycles with too.
>>
>>CL
>>
>>
>>Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>
>>>I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people who
>>>read this forum?
>>>
>>>I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is good
>>>for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>(http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone want to
>>>take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things you really
>>>like about Eclipse?
>>>
>>>Mike Milinkovich
>>>Executive Director
>>>Eclipse Foundation
>>>
>>>
>>>"Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>
>>>>A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>"Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>
>>>>Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>
>>>>A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse Getting
>>>>Slower?")
>>>>http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People praise
>>>>netbeans for its
>>>>performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they improved
>>>>it a lot).
>>>>
>>>>Genady
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Genady Beryozkin
>>>>http://www.genady.net/
>>>
>>>
>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #16966 is a reply to message #16937] Tue, 15 March 2005 06:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

(Long silence.) Man, this is a tough room! ;-}

Bob Foster

Bob Foster wrote:
> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>
>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone
>> want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>
>
> No problem. ;-}
>
> 10. The Java editor is only broken three months a year.
>
> 9. I like the symbolism in the logo.
>
> 8. It's a thrill to ride the API roller-coaster.
>
> 7. It's intellectually stimulating to debate the committers about what
> exactly the old API covered.
>
> 6. Two words: toolbar overflow.
>
> 5. You can use the code to develop any application you want as long as
> it looks just like Eclipse.
>
> 4. Code documentation is for wimps!
>
> 3. In my dreams I'm chased by angry red boxes with white x's.
>
> 2. I like to hear OOP zealots squeal when they see SWT.
>
> And the number one reason I like Eclipse:
>
> 1. More tabs!
>
>
> Bob Foster
>
>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>
>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>
>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was
>>> easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not
>>> true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can
>>> trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>
>>> CL
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>
>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people
>>>> who read this forum?
>>>>
>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is
>>>> good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things
>>>> you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>
>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>
>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>
>>>>> Genady
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17025 is a reply to message #16966] Tue, 15 March 2005 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: eclipse-news.forritan.net

:-)

Bob Foster wrote:
> (Long silence.) Man, this is a tough room! ;-}
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17532 is a reply to message #16937] Thu, 17 March 2005 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: kim_horne.ca.ibm.com

I've hurt my feelings and made me pee myself. Interesting combination
effect there...

Bob Foster wrote:
> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>
>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone
>> want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>
>
> No problem. ;-}
>
> 10. The Java editor is only broken three months a year.
>
> 9. I like the symbolism in the logo.
>
> 8. It's a thrill to ride the API roller-coaster.
>
> 7. It's intellectually stimulating to debate the committers about what
> exactly the old API covered.
>
> 6. Two words: toolbar overflow.
>
> 5. You can use the code to develop any application you want as long as
> it looks just like Eclipse.
>
> 4. Code documentation is for wimps!
>
> 3. In my dreams I'm chased by angry red boxes with white x's.
>
> 2. I like to hear OOP zealots squeal when they see SWT.
>
> And the number one reason I like Eclipse:
>
> 1. More tabs!
>
>
> Bob Foster
>
>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>
>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>
>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was
>>> easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not
>>> true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can
>>> trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>
>>> CL
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>
>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people
>>>> who read this forum?
>>>>
>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is
>>>> good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things
>>>> you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>
>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>
>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>
>>>>> Genady
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17545 is a reply to message #16878] Thu, 17 March 2005 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

10. There is a 'newsgroup'

9. consistent standard Look and Feel

8. It does not crash.

7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.

6. The API is Clean and logical

5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.

4. the concurrency model works.

3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
proprietary parts.

2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!

1. Profit!

SWT however is a pig.


CL


Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone want
> to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>
> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>>Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes you
>>wonder what the deal is.
>>
>>Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of the
>>reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a particular
>>library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was easier to
>>develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not true anymore...I
>>REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can trace object
>>lifecycles with too.
>>
>>CL
>>
>>
>>Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>
>>>I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people who
>>>read this forum?
>>>
>>>I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is good
>>>for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>(http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone want to
>>>take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things you really
>>>like about Eclipse?
>>>
>>>Mike Milinkovich
>>>Executive Director
>>>Eclipse Foundation
>>>
>>>
>>>"Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>
>>>>A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>"Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>
>>>>Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>
>>>>A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse Getting
>>>>Slower?")
>>>>http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People praise
>>>>netbeans for its
>>>>performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they improved
>>>>it a lot).
>>>>
>>>>Genady
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Genady Beryozkin
>>>>http://www.genady.net/
>>>
>>>
>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17558 is a reply to message #17545] Fri, 18 March 2005 02:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: pascal.ibm.canada

Do you really mean SWT?
If so can you detail what is bad in it?

PaScaL

CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
> 10. There is a 'newsgroup'
>
> 9. consistent standard Look and Feel
>
> 8. It does not crash.
>
> 7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.
>
> 6. The API is Clean and logical
>
> 5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.
>
> 4. the concurrency model works.
>
> 3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
> proprietary parts.
>
> 2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!
>
> 1. Profit!
>
> SWT however is a pig.
>
>
> CL
>
>
> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>
>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone
>> want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>
>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>
>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>
>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was
>>> easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not
>>> true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can
>>> trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>
>>> CL
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>
>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people
>>>> who read this forum?
>>>>
>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is
>>>> good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things
>>>> you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>
>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>
>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>
>>>>> Genady
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17597 is a reply to message #17558] Fri, 18 March 2005 06:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eugene Ostroukhov is currently offline Eugene Ostroukhov
Messages: 66
Registered: July 2009
Member
The things I hate in SWT:
1. It is not "Java native" - almost all the Java desktop application except
for Eclipse-based are using AWT/SWING. There are dozens free components that
leverage SWING, it has huge community support.
2. SWT components sometimes have unexpected limitations (i.e. at least
Windows and Macintoch checkboxes have the "undetermined" state while the SWT
checkbox doen't have one)
3. SWT is not skinnable (well, it is really not a big problem but sometimes
it is really desired)
4. Plain SWT programming model sometimes recall me the VCL (Delphi)
programming. JFace helps alot but for me SWING programming model is more
logical for me (compare JTable and SWT Table).
5. If you compare IDEA and Eclipse you could see that the SWING is not
neccessary slow.

The things I miss in SWT:
1. Combobox with the tree and with the images.
2. Undetermined state for the checkbox.
3. JTable port :)

Now we have an SWT on top of Windows GDI, Carbon, GTK, Motif and others -
some applications could use the SWT on top of SWING.

Eugene

"Pascal Rapicault" <pascal@ibm.canada> wrote in message
news:d1dd8d$1ps$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Do you really mean SWT?
> If so can you detail what is bad in it?
>
> PaScaL
>
> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>> 10. There is a 'newsgroup'
>>
>> 9. consistent standard Look and Feel
>>
>> 8. It does not crash.
>>
>> 7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.
>>
>> 6. The API is Clean and logical
>>
>> 5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.
>>
>> 4. the concurrency model works.
>>
>> 3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
>> proprietary parts.
>>
>> 2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!
>>
>> 1. Profit!
>>
>> SWT however is a pig.
>>
>>
>> CL
>>
>>
>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>
>>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone
>>> want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>>
>>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes you
>>>> wonder what the deal is.
>>>>
>>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of the
>>>> reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a particular
>>>> library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was easier to
>>>> develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not true
>>>> anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can trace
>>>> object lifecycles with too.
>>>>
>>>> CL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people
>>>>> who read this forum?
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is
>>>>> good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone want
>>>>> to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things you
>>>>> really like about Eclipse?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Genady
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17610 is a reply to message #17558] Fri, 18 March 2005 06:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eugene Ostroukhov is currently offline Eugene Ostroukhov
Messages: 66
Registered: July 2009
Member
The things I hate in SWT:
1. It is not "Java native" - almost all the Java desktop application except
for Eclipse-based are using AWT/SWING. There are dozens free components that
leverage SWING, it has huge community support.
2. SWT components sometimes have unexpected limitations (i.e. at least
Windows and Macintoch checkboxes have the "undetermined" state while the SWT
checkbox doen't have one)
3. SWT is not skinnable (well, it is really not a big problem but sometimes
it is really desired)
4. Plain SWT programming model sometimes recall me the VCL (Delphi)
programming. JFace helps alot but for me SWING programming model is more
logical for me (compare JTable and SWT Table).
5. If you compare IDEA and Eclipse you could see that the SWING is not
neccessary slow.

The things I miss in SWT:
1. Combobox with the tree and with the images.
2. Undetermined state for the checkbox.
3. JTable port :)

Now we have an SWT on top of Windows GDI, Carbon, GTK, Motif and others -
some applications could use the SWT on top of SWING.

Eugene

"Pascal Rapicault" <pascal@ibm.canada> wrote in message
news:d1dd8d$1ps$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Do you really mean SWT?
> If so can you detail what is bad in it?
>
> PaScaL
>
> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>> 10. There is a 'newsgroup'
>>
>> 9. consistent standard Look and Feel
>>
>> 8. It does not crash.
>>
>> 7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.
>>
>> 6. The API is Clean and logical
>>
>> 5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.
>>
>> 4. the concurrency model works.
>>
>> 3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
>> proprietary parts.
>>
>> 2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!
>>
>> 1. Profit!
>>
>> SWT however is a pig.
>>
>>
>> CL
>>
>>
>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>
>>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone
>>> want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>>
>>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes you
>>>> wonder what the deal is.
>>>>
>>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of the
>>>> reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a particular
>>>> library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was easier to
>>>> develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not true
>>>> anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can trace
>>>> object lifecycles with too.
>>>>
>>>> CL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people
>>>>> who read this forum?
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is
>>>>> good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone want
>>>>> to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things you
>>>>> really like about Eclipse?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Genady
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17623 is a reply to message #17532] Fri, 18 March 2005 07:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

What finer tribute could one ask?

Bob

Kimberly Horne wrote:
> I've hurt my feelings and made me pee myself. Interesting combination
> effect there...
>
> Bob Foster wrote:
>
>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>
>>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does
>>> anyone want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>
>>
>>
>> No problem. ;-}
>>
>> 10. The Java editor is only broken three months a year.
>>
>> 9. I like the symbolism in the logo.
>>
>> 8. It's a thrill to ride the API roller-coaster.
>>
>> 7. It's intellectually stimulating to debate the committers about what
>> exactly the old API covered.
>>
>> 6. Two words: toolbar overflow.
>>
>> 5. You can use the code to develop any application you want as long as
>> it looks just like Eclipse.
>>
>> 4. Code documentation is for wimps!
>>
>> 3. In my dreams I'm chased by angry red boxes with white x's.
>>
>> 2. I like to hear OOP zealots squeal when they see SWT.
>>
>> And the number one reason I like Eclipse:
>>
>> 1. More tabs!
>>
>>
>> Bob Foster
>>
>>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>>
>>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was
>>>> easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not
>>>> true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can
>>>> trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>>
>>>> CL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the
>>>>> people who read this forum?
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition
>>>>> is good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things
>>>>> you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Genady
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17636 is a reply to message #17545] Fri, 18 March 2005 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

I have to hand it to you. I thought you were being all serious until I
got to the punch line. SWT is a pig? I laughed 'till I cried. ;-}

Bob

CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
> 10. There is a 'newsgroup'
>
> 9. consistent standard Look and Feel
>
> 8. It does not crash.
>
> 7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.
>
> 6. The API is Clean and logical
>
> 5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.
>
> 4. the concurrency model works.
>
> 3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
> proprietary parts.
>
> 2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!
>
> 1. Profit!
>
> SWT however is a pig.
>
>
> CL
>
>
> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>
>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does anyone
>> want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>
>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>
>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>
>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was
>>> easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not
>>> true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can
>>> trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>
>>> CL
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>
>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the people
>>>> who read this forum?
>>>>
>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition is
>>>> good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things
>>>> you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>
>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>
>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>
>>>>> Genady
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17662 is a reply to message #17558] Fri, 18 March 2005 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

SWT widgets are pathetic compared to swing or awt. Im giving the same
example given above of JTable. But more than that, you can change the
renderer in a combobox, and the same renderer can go in a table cell, or
just about any other component. Swing is very OO and modular. Swt is
long way beind in this respect. The way I look at it is



AWT is native widgets with the look of the native system. Using them
you look like the system you are running in. You may have to make
changes in your code to compensate for different native looks and feels.

Swing is Suns attempt to preesent a common look across all platforms.
So your app always looks the same. Write once(GUI wise), but you look
like Swing, and not OS.

SWT tries to present a native look, with a common implementation. Its
purpose is not speed, as you can have speed with AWT. (Not to mention
that I have _never_ seen the slowness that is rumored and I been using
swing for over 5 years.) It really does belong on top of Swing. If you
look at what it has to do, its going to need native widgets, but without
the swing layer, its going to be very tough to get the write onceness.

I think SWT is a good idea, but the more I use it, the less I am
convinced I want it. Its hard to roll back to the limited widgets and
functionality available in SWT vs. Swing. And if they are going to try
to not use Swing, then they are goign to re-write everything. It took
Sun years, I dont expect IBM to get this in an acceptable state for at
least 4-5 years with the current architecture.


I'm not happy with SWT.



Pascal Rapicault wrote:
> Do you really mean SWT?
> If so can you detail what is bad in it?
>
> PaScaL
>
> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>
>> 10. There is a 'newsgroup'
>>
>> 9. consistent standard Look and Feel
>>
>> 8. It does not crash.
>>
>> 7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.
>>
>> 6. The API is Clean and logical
>>
>> 5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.
>>
>> 4. the concurrency model works.
>>
>> 3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
>> proprietary parts.
>>
>> 2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!
>>
>> 1. Profit!
>>
>> SWT however is a pig.
>>
>>
>> CL
>>
>>
>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>
>>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does
>>> anyone want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>>
>>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>>
>>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB was
>>>> easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats not
>>>> true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that I can
>>>> trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>>
>>>> CL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the
>>>>> people who read this forum?
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition
>>>>> is good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the things
>>>>> you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Genady
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17688 is a reply to message #17558] Fri, 18 March 2005 21:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Genady Beryozkin is currently offline Genady Beryozkin
Messages: 410
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I really like SWT. People often ask me "is that Java?" when they see an
RCP app.

Unfortunately there are few shortcomings:
1. GTK port is really slow. Motif port is quite ugly (nobody can help
that ...).
2. The table widget could have more functionality.
3. It's really hard to implement your own components. I guess SWT was
not designed to support it.
4. Many standard widgets are missing.

It suits most of my needs, and in some way it prevents me from writing
"too fancy" (RCP) applications.
Many users prefer a nice clean look and SWT gives just that.

Genady Beryozkin
http://www.genady.net/



Pascal Rapicault wrote:

> Do you really mean SWT?
> If so can you detail what is bad in it?
>
> PaScaL
>
> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>
>> 10. There is a 'newsgroup'
>>
>> 9. consistent standard Look and Feel
>>
>> 8. It does not crash.
>>
>> 7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.
>>
>> 6. The API is Clean and logical
>>
>> 5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.
>>
>> 4. the concurrency model works.
>>
>> 3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
>> proprietary parts.
>>
>> 2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!
>>
>> 1. Profit!
>>
>> SWT however is a pig.
>>
>>
>> CL
>>
>>
>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>
>>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does
>>> anyone want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>>
>>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>
>>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>>
>>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB
>>>> was easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats
>>>> not true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that
>>>> I can trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>>
>>>> CL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the
>>>>> people who read this forum?
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition
>>>>> is good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the
>>>>> things you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Genady
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17702 is a reply to message #17662] Fri, 18 March 2005 23:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

There ought to be a separate newsgroup for people who like Swing better
than SWT (instead of this running permathread in every newsgroup).

If you don't like SWT, don't use it.

Bob Foster

CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
> SWT widgets are pathetic compared to swing or awt. Im giving the same
> example given above of JTable. But more than that, you can change the
> renderer in a combobox, and the same renderer can go in a table cell, or
> just about any other component. Swing is very OO and modular. Swt is
> long way beind in this respect. The way I look at it is
>
>
>
> AWT is native widgets with the look of the native system. Using them
> you look like the system you are running in. You may have to make
> changes in your code to compensate for different native looks and feels.
>
> Swing is Suns attempt to preesent a common look across all platforms. So
> your app always looks the same. Write once(GUI wise), but you look like
> Swing, and not OS.
>
> SWT tries to present a native look, with a common implementation. Its
> purpose is not speed, as you can have speed with AWT. (Not to mention
> that I have _never_ seen the slowness that is rumored and I been using
> swing for over 5 years.) It really does belong on top of Swing. If you
> look at what it has to do, its going to need native widgets, but without
> the swing layer, its going to be very tough to get the write onceness.
>
> I think SWT is a good idea, but the more I use it, the less I am
> convinced I want it. Its hard to roll back to the limited widgets and
> functionality available in SWT vs. Swing. And if they are going to try
> to not use Swing, then they are goign to re-write everything. It took
> Sun years, I dont expect IBM to get this in an acceptable state for at
> least 4-5 years with the current architecture.
>
>
> I'm not happy with SWT.
>
>
>
> Pascal Rapicault wrote:
>
>> Do you really mean SWT?
>> If so can you detail what is bad in it?
>>
>> PaScaL
>>
>> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>> 10. There is a 'newsgroup'
>>>
>>> 9. consistent standard Look and Feel
>>>
>>> 8. It does not crash.
>>>
>>> 7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.
>>>
>>> 6. The API is Clean and logical
>>>
>>> 5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.
>>>
>>> 4. the concurrency model works.
>>>
>>> 3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
>>> proprietary parts.
>>>
>>> 2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!
>>>
>>> 1. Profit!
>>>
>>> SWT however is a pig.
>>>
>>>
>>> CL
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>
>>>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does
>>>> anyone want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>>>
>>>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>>>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>
>>>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB
>>>>> was easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats
>>>>> not true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that
>>>>> I can trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>>>
>>>>> CL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the
>>>>>> people who read this forum?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition
>>>>>> is good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the
>>>>>> things you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Genady
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17715 is a reply to message #17688] Fri, 18 March 2005 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

Genady wrote:
> I really like SWT. People often ask me "is that Java?" when they see an
> RCP app.

Me, too.

> Unfortunately there are few shortcomings:
> 1. GTK port is really slow. Motif port is quite ugly (nobody can help
> that ...).
> 2. The table widget could have more functionality.
> 3. It's really hard to implement your own components. I guess SWT was
> not designed to support it.

Why is that? What's hard is to tweak SWT's components, since they're not
designed for tweaking, but you can grab a Canvas and implement anything
you want.

> 4. Many standard widgets are missing.

Which ones do you miss?

> It suits most of my needs, and in some way it prevents me from writing
> "too fancy" (RCP) applications.

+1

Bob Foster

> Many users prefer a nice clean look and SWT gives just that.
>
> Genady Beryozkin
> http://www.genady.net/
>
>
>
> Pascal Rapicault wrote:
>
>> Do you really mean SWT?
>> If so can you detail what is bad in it?
>>
>> PaScaL
>>
>> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>> 10. There is a 'newsgroup'
>>>
>>> 9. consistent standard Look and Feel
>>>
>>> 8. It does not crash.
>>>
>>> 7. Roadmap is layed out clearly.
>>>
>>> 6. The API is Clean and logical
>>>
>>> 5. When the API is not clean and/or logical, it gets fixed.
>>>
>>> 4. the concurrency model works.
>>>
>>> 3. community shows desire to be standards compliant (osgi), and no
>>> proprietary parts.
>>>
>>> 2. Plugin architecture is wonderful!
>>>
>>> 1. Profit!
>>>
>>> SWT however is a pig.
>>>
>>>
>>> CL
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>
>>>> I actually wasn't looking for a critique of their top ten. Does
>>>> anyone want to volunteer to write a "top ten" on why they like Eclipse?
>>>>
>>>> "CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert" <Lamont_Gilbert@rigidsoftware.com> wrote in
>>>> message news:d0tupm$c48$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>
>>>>> Sad list. Do GNOME and the other desktop compete like this? Makes
>>>>> you wonder what the deal is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those 10 reasons highlightd for me why I am with Eclipse. Most of
>>>>> the reasons they have listed are tied to the availability of a
>>>>> particular library on NetBeans. The one they missed was that NB
>>>>> was easier to develop web apps out of the box. But perhaps thats
>>>>> not true anymore...I REALLY want a solid profiler for Eclipse that
>>>>> I can trace object lifecycles with too.
>>>>>
>>>>> CL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I read the entire JavaLobby thread. What are the views of the
>>>>>> people who read this forum?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I appreciate that NetBeans has been working hard, and competition
>>>>>> is good for all of us. I thought that their "top ten"
>>>>>> (http://www.netbeans.org/switch/why.html) was kind of fun. Anyone
>>>>>> want to take a stab at an Eclipse top ten? E.g. What are the
>>>>>> things you really like about Eclipse?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike Milinkovich
>>>>>> Executive Director
>>>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Genady" <eclipse@genady.org> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:d0lc1j$h6d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A document listed on the "java.sun.com" front page has title:
>>>>>>> "Migrating from Eclipse 3.0 to Sun Java Studio Enterprise 7"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Netbeans 4.1 to offer imporing Eclipse projects ("out of the dark")
>>>>>>> http://www.netbeans.org/kb/41/import-eclipse.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A long thread on javalobby on Eclipse performance ("Is Eclipse
>>>>>>> Getting Slower?")
>>>>>>> http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t17638
>>>>>>> Key complaints: Eclipse freezes frequently, slow on linux. People
>>>>>>> praise netbeans for its
>>>>>>> performance (I couldn't believe seing that, but apparently they
>>>>>>> improved it a lot).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Genady
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Genady Beryozkin
>>>>>>> http://www.genady.net/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17834 is a reply to message #17715] Sat, 19 March 2005 07:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Genady Beryozkin is currently offline Genady Beryozkin
Messages: 410
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
> Why is that? What's hard is to tweak SWT's components, since they're
> not designed for tweaking, but you can grab a Canvas and implement
> anything you want.

It is a lot of effort to do that. Then you also lose the native look and
feel.

>> 4. Many standard widgets are missing.
>
Calendar, more file dialogs, advanced table, etc. Maybe it's not "many"
but every time I need one I just have to find
a workaround and it's frustrating.

Genady
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17851 is a reply to message #17702] Sat, 19 March 2005 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

Fortunately there is nothing in the license restricting SWT usage to
only those who like it.

Though I do wonder how one could present a consistend look using Eclipse
+ Swing/AWT?

CL


Bob Foster wrote:
> There ought to be a separate newsgroup for people who like Swing better
> than SWT (instead of this running permathread in every newsgroup).
>
> If you don't like SWT, don't use it.
>
> Bob Foster
>
> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>
>> SWT widgets are pathetic compared to swing or awt. Im giving the same
>> example given above of JTable. But more than that, you can change the
>> renderer in a combobox, and the same renderer can go in a table cell,
>> or just about any other component. Swing is very OO and modular. Swt
>> is long way beind in this respect. The way I look at it is
>>
>>
>>
>> AWT is native widgets with the look of the native system. Using them
>> you look like the system you are running in. You may have to make
>> changes in your code to compensate for different native looks and feels.
>>
>> Swing is Suns attempt to preesent a common look across all platforms.
>> So your app always looks the same. Write once(GUI wise), but you look
>> like Swing, and not OS.
>>
>> SWT tries to present a native look, with a common implementation. Its
>> purpose is not speed, as you can have speed with AWT. (Not to mention
>> that I have _never_ seen the slowness that is rumored and I been using
>> swing for over 5 years.) It really does belong on top of Swing. If
>> you look at what it has to do, its going to need native widgets, but
>> without the swing layer, its going to be very tough to get the write
>> onceness.
>>
>> I think SWT is a good idea, but the more I use it, the less I am
>> convinced I want it. Its hard to roll back to the limited widgets and
>> functionality available in SWT vs. Swing. And if they are going to
>> try to not use Swing, then they are goign to re-write everything. It
>> took Sun years, I dont expect IBM to get this in an acceptable state
>> for at least 4-5 years with the current architecture.
>>
>>
>> I'm not happy with SWT.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pascal Rapicault wrote:
>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17862 is a reply to message #17834] Sat, 19 March 2005 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

Genady wrote:
>
>> Why is that? What's hard is to tweak SWT's components, since they're
>> not designed for tweaking, but you can grab a Canvas and implement
>> anything you want.
>
>
> It is a lot of effort to do that. Then you also lose the native look and
> feel.
>
>>> 4. Many standard widgets are missing.
>>
>>
> Calendar, more file dialogs, advanced table, etc. Maybe it's not "many"
> but every time I need one I just have to find
> a workaround and it's frustrating.
>
> Genady

Right because Table is kind of like GridBagLayout, its just one thing,
but it has so many uses.

CL
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #17875 is a reply to message #17851] Sat, 19 March 2005 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: pascal.ibm.canada

Ilog has some pretty good examples of that with their IlogViews library.

PaScaL

CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
> Fortunately there is nothing in the license restricting SWT usage to
> only those who like it.
>
> Though I do wonder how one could present a consistend look using Eclipse
> + Swing/AWT?
>
> CL
>
>
> Bob Foster wrote:
>
>> There ought to be a separate newsgroup for people who like Swing
>> better than SWT (instead of this running permathread in every newsgroup).
>>
>> If you don't like SWT, don't use it.
>>
>> Bob Foster
>>
>> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>> SWT widgets are pathetic compared to swing or awt. Im giving the
>>> same example given above of JTable. But more than that, you can
>>> change the renderer in a combobox, and the same renderer can go in a
>>> table cell, or just about any other component. Swing is very OO and
>>> modular. Swt is long way beind in this respect. The way I look at
>>> it is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AWT is native widgets with the look of the native system. Using them
>>> you look like the system you are running in. You may have to make
>>> changes in your code to compensate for different native looks and feels.
>>>
>>> Swing is Suns attempt to preesent a common look across all platforms.
>>> So your app always looks the same. Write once(GUI wise), but you
>>> look like Swing, and not OS.
>>>
>>> SWT tries to present a native look, with a common implementation.
>>> Its purpose is not speed, as you can have speed with AWT. (Not to
>>> mention that I have _never_ seen the slowness that is rumored and I
>>> been using swing for over 5 years.) It really does belong on top of
>>> Swing. If you look at what it has to do, its going to need native
>>> widgets, but without the swing layer, its going to be very tough to
>>> get the write onceness.
>>>
>>> I think SWT is a good idea, but the more I use it, the less I am
>>> convinced I want it. Its hard to roll back to the limited widgets
>>> and functionality available in SWT vs. Swing. And if they are going
>>> to try to not use Swing, then they are goign to re-write everything.
>>> It took Sun years, I dont expect IBM to get this in an acceptable
>>> state for at least 4-5 years with the current architecture.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not happy with SWT.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pascal Rapicault wrote:
>>>
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #18775 is a reply to message #17610] Fri, 08 April 2005 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: arjan.mbuyu_dont_spam.nl

Eugene Ostroukhov wrote:
> Now we have an SWT on top of Windows GDI, Carbon, GTK, Motif and others -
> some applications could use the SWT on top of SWING.

I think this is an excellent idea. A SWT port to swing would allow for a
100% pure Java implementation of Eclipse. This should work quite well
on platforms that aren't directly supported (BSD, Irix, etc).
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #18792 is a reply to message #18775] Fri, 08 April 2005 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: Lamont_Gilbert.rigidsoftware.com

arjan wrote:
> Eugene Ostroukhov wrote:
>
>> Now we have an SWT on top of Windows GDI, Carbon, GTK, Motif and others -
>> some applications could use the SWT on top of SWING.
>
>
> I think this is an excellent idea. A SWT port to swing would allow for a
> 100% pure Java implementation of Eclipse. This should work quite well
> on platforms that aren't directly supported (BSD, Irix, etc).

That is an excellent idea. Sort of like the choice some games give you
to use the Direct3D emulator or use the actual hardware.


CL
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #18815 is a reply to message #18792] Sat, 09 April 2005 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sylvain Wallez is currently offline Sylvain Wallez
Messages: 2
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:

> arjan wrote:
>
>> Eugene Ostroukhov wrote:
>>
>>> Now we have an SWT on top of Windows GDI, Carbon, GTK, Motif and
>>> others -
>>> some applications could use the SWT on top of SWING.
>>
>>
>> I think this is an excellent idea. A SWT port to swing would allow
>> for a 100% pure Java implementation of Eclipse. This should work
>> quite well on platforms that aren't directly supported (BSD, Irix, etc).
>
>
> That is an excellent idea. Sort of like the choice some games give
> you to use the Direct3D emulator or use the actual hardware.


Have a look at http://chrriis.brainlex.com/projects/swtswing/

Sylvain

--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://apache.org/~sylvain http://anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member Research & Technology Director
Re: Sun tries to catch Eclipse users (articles roundup) [message #18956 is a reply to message #18815] Mon, 11 April 2005 18:27 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: dschaefe.ca.ibm.com

"Sylvain Wallez" <sylvain@apache.org> wrote in message
news:d39k52$214$1@news.eclipse.org...
> CL [dnoyeb] Gilbert wrote:
>
>> arjan wrote:
>>
>>> Eugene Ostroukhov wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now we have an SWT on top of Windows GDI, Carbon, GTK, Motif and
>>>> others -
>>>> some applications could use the SWT on top of SWING.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think this is an excellent idea. A SWT port to swing would allow for a
>>> 100% pure Java implementation of Eclipse. This should work quite well on
>>> platforms that aren't directly supported (BSD, Irix, etc).
>>
>>
>> That is an excellent idea. Sort of like the choice some games give you
>> to use the Direct3D emulator or use the actual hardware.
>
>
> Have a look at http://chrriis.brainlex.com/projects/swtswing/

Looks like a dead project. But a cool idea, though. The politics of it are
exciting at least :)

Doug
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