Eclipse Community Forums
Forum Search:

Search      Help    Register    Login    Home
Home » Eclipse Projects » EGL Development Tools » What's next???(Can't find any future planning materals...)
What's next??? [message #1012002] Wed, 20 February 2013 17:01 Go to next message
Dan Darnell is currently offline Dan Darnell
Messages: 145
Registered: November 2011
Location: Arkansas
Senior Member
I'm curious where this project is going from here. The last blog update was January 18 (more than a month ago) and I can't find any additional planning information on any of the project pages.

Am I looking in the wrong place?

Project dead?

--Dan
Re: What's next??? [message #1014248 is a reply to message #1012002] Mon, 25 February 2013 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Trond Einar Nilsen is currently offline Trond Einar Nilsen
Messages: 33
Registered: December 2011
Member
I am also a bit worried. It looked very promising, but I feel that both community activity and development of the product indicates that focus is elsewhere? I hope I am wrong because so far I have loved it and I believe and hope it has a future!
/Trond

[Updated on: Mon, 25 February 2013 12:48]

Report message to a moderator

Re: What's next??? [message #1014293 is a reply to message #1014248] Mon, 25 February 2013 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wilfried Reinoehl is currently offline Wilfried Reinoehl
Messages: 9
Registered: July 2012
Junior Member
I feel exactly the same...maybe one of the developers can write a few words to resolve this unclear situation.

-- Wilfried Reinoehl
Re: What's next??? [message #1014471 is a reply to message #1014293] Mon, 25 February 2013 22:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Darnell is currently offline Dan Darnell
Messages: 145
Registered: November 2011
Location: Arkansas
Senior Member
It is unfortunate that the people running the project can't do a better job communicating futures (if there is one) for EDT. Looking at Bugzilla it appears that work continues but still no planning page updates or blog posts from the team.

I may feel more optimistic later but right now I think that all of this work on EDT is going to be a case of too little, too late. (Or maybe, more accurately, just "too late".)

The market is not sitting idle while this project (by all external appearances) spins its wheels. Take a look around at mGWT, PhoneGap for GWT, and several others and you'll find very appealing ways to target web AND native mobile platforms with a single language. EDT should be ideally positioned to leverage such things as PhoneGap. If all we are going to end up with another 6-12 months down the road is EDT with a relatively small subset of Dojo/Dojo Mobile widgets and with an underlying language architecture that *could* do anything (but no strategic partners actually doing something with that underlying architecture) then all of this was (as I have always feared) an academic exercise primarily executed so that some really smart people at IBM can move into even better jobs at IBM (or elsewhere). If 6-12 months down the road we have an EDT version 1.0 that can only show off web development that is state-of-the-art circa 2010 then you can stick a fork in this one.

--Dan
Re: What's next??? [message #1014641 is a reply to message #1014471] Tue, 26 February 2013 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gio coot is currently offline gio coot
Messages: 22
Registered: December 2012
Junior Member
Hi Dan

what do you suggest to do ?? try to ask all together to the developers ?

Thanks
Re: What's next??? [message #1014793 is a reply to message #1012002] Tue, 26 February 2013 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Heitz is currently offline Matt Heitz
Messages: 36
Registered: July 2009
Member
We (the EDT developers) have asked our management to respond to this thread.

-Matt
Re: What's next??? [message #1014981 is a reply to message #1014793] Wed, 27 February 2013 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fahua jin is currently offline fahua jin
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2011
Member
This is a guest post by EGL management.

IBM is continuing to re-assess EDT direction, which will be influenced by participation of the partner and customer community involved. For more information, please refer to the blog http://xeglblog.blogspot.com/2013/02/edt-possible-future-scenarios-no.html.

Rocky

[Updated on: Wed, 27 February 2013 06:41]

Report message to a moderator

Re: What's next??? [message #1015208 is a reply to message #1014981] Wed, 27 February 2013 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Darnell is currently offline Dan Darnell
Messages: 145
Registered: November 2011
Location: Arkansas
Senior Member
Thank you. I am pleased to see that that IBM has responded and acknowledged that there is in fact a re-assessment taking place where IBM's involvement is concerned.

I'll note a few things in response:
1. Why wasn't this re-assessment made public until now? Reading between the lines, I think there is concern about the lack of involvement in the project outside of IBM but you can't lament the lack of involvement in the project outside of IBM if you always treat the project like it is an internal IBM project. Want partners in this effort? Act like an entity that is willing to be a partner. (I would love to talk more about this and how the project team could both communicate better about the project and involve more non-IBM'ers...if there is any interest in such a discussion.)

2. There are a few of us who have developed things that we hope to include in the project but the 0.8.2 release was a ground-up redevelopment of so much infrastructure that (at least in my case) I wanted to wait until it dropped before I invested more time in preparing my code for submission to the project.

3. I know of few people or even companies that have the skills to contribute to the work that has taken place on the EDT project so far. The (IBM) project team has been putting together core infrastructure and (I think) bringing a lot of code over from internal projects like RBD. In my opinion, the project is just now at a point where meaningful but ancillary contributions like mine seem possible and relevant. But if IBM steps back from the project now you can be certain that nobody will step forward. IBM stepping back before 1.0 says quite clearly to people like me: "Dead project. Run away."

4. For those of us in the IBM i community, IBM walking away from EDT before 1.0 would be a huge blow. EGL in RBD was pushed hard as the "way forward" for us. Every "way forward" direction from IBM (let me count the ways...VisualAge RPG, HATS, WebFacing, PHP, "learn Java or you will be flipping burgers," and on, and on) has proven to be short-lived (maybe with the exception of PHP). Unfortunately, when IBM gives advice, we suckers tend to take it to heart and make serious investments before the plug is unceremoniously pulled. It has long been apparent that EDT represents the logical evolution and way forward for EGL. We're on board. We are investing. But we've been down this road with IBM before and consistently come out feeling misled, betrayed, confused, and angry. Are you really going to pull the rug out from under us again?

5. I have expressed more than once that I wish the project team would work harder to get the word out about EDT. My articles for iPro Developer and IBM Systems Magazine along with Joe Pluta's articles for IBM Systems Magazine are the only mentions of EDT that I can find online. (Oh, and the Slashdot article I wrote that announced the first release of the tool and the work I started and several of us continued on Rosetta Code.) You can't fail to tell people about EDT and then wonder why nobody knows about it. Contrast this (as I have many times) with an effort such as Opa -- many, many mentions in trade publications and an active ongoing effort to get the word out about its existence. If you want an active, thriving project with many contributors, make an effort to tell people you exist.

As for my take on the direction IBM takes (not that you are asking):

- Deliver 1.0 and then assess where IBM should stand going forward. I guarantee you that by the time you get to 1.0 you will have contributions from outside IBM. You know that there are people like me out here who have already invested in the project by writing some significant code, creating extensions (one example being for HTML 5 features), submitting bug reports, participating in design discussions (one example being the IBM i extensions).

- Start (helping us) talk about EDT in the outside world.

Respectfully,

Dan Darnell
Re: What's next??? [message #1015260 is a reply to message #1012002] Wed, 27 February 2013 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Egon Moser is currently offline Egon Moser
Messages: 3
Registered: February 2012
Junior Member
Wenn ich hier diese Diskusion verfolge so bin ich wirklich froh das das Produkt
"Rational Developer for i for SOA Construction" für mich endlich tod ist.

EDT/EGL als Open-Source Produkt hat mir die Hoffnung gegeben das IBM in der Lage ist nach den desaströsen Produkten wie (VARPG, WEBFACING, HATS, PHP und WAS auch immer) in der Lage ist ein Produkt auf den Markt zu bringen mit dem wir unsere bestehenden Applikationen in die Welt von Web-Applikationen (Wolken und mobile Anwendung) bringen können.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen
Egon Moser
EDV- u. Unternehmensberatung

Gute Nacht IBM es war .NET(t) nach 40 Jahren

übersetzt mit GOOGLE

If I follow this Diskusion I'm really glad that the product
"Rational Developer for i for SOA Construction" for me is dead at last.

EDT / EGL as an open source product has given me the hope that IBM is in a position after the disastrous products like (VARPG, WEBFACING, HATS, PHP, and WAS ) is able to bring a product to market with the our existing applications in the world of web applications can bring (clouds and mobile application).

Sincerely
Egon Moser
Computer & Consulting



Re: What's next??? [message #1015506 is a reply to message #1015208] Thu, 28 February 2013 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Moulton is currently offline Richard Moulton
Messages: 92
Registered: August 2011
Location: Devon, UK
Member
On the whole I share similar views to those already made by Dan and others on this thread, and the equivalent thread on the RBD forum.

I have contributed, in some small way, to the project where I am able; through using/testing, bug reports, responding to forum posts, and sharing code samples. So, my contributions are from a 'user of the langauage/tool' perspective. I will continue to contribute, where I can, but I don't have the skills to contribute code to the core language, generators or IDE.

I glanced at the proposal for EDT (http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/egl/) and looking at the Initial Contribution section I would say that IBM are there, and then some. So, where do we go from here? Will anyone pick up the EDT baton and commit to maintaining the core code? I have no idea, though I would assume that along the road IBM have been trying to get other parties involved with that express goal.

I don't know what EDT 1.0 would look like compared to EDT 0.8.2 but unless someone does commit to maintaining and extending that core code would there be any purpose in continuing?

Will IBM continue to maintain the core code? I don't know the answer to this one but I'm also not sure why IBM started the project and where they saw it going. How are they measuring the success of the project? I'm assuming it was to get EGL 'out there' and create a larger community of developers using the language. If that is the case how successful has that been? How many people are/have been using EDT? Could the community be doing more to get the EGL message 'out there'? If so, how?

What would it take for someone to commit to maintaining the core code? Are there goods reasons why organisations have not committed to maintaining the core code? If so, could the community help to address those issues?

From my own perspective, my initial interest in EGL was to gain an understanding of web technologies and being an IBM i server RPG developer, EGL seemed a good fit, and of course the prospect of only needing to learn one language across a multi-tiered application environment was a big selling point for me. I've invested a significant amount of my time in EGL over the years and therefore want to see it succeed. When I was looking for a web application development language I chose EGL over .net - I'm an IBM i server guy, it just felt right. Is that a good enough reason for the majority of developers?

What did I find difficult and could therefore be a detractor for new developers?
1) The biggest hurdle for me was with the documentation and online resources, if there were a larger community of users then there would generally be a larger pool of resources to call upon. I regularly use google to help me solve my RPG problems but there just aren't (currently) the volume of EGL developers to give you that pool. I find howtos, walk throughs and tutorials immensely useful.
2) The second is with the richness of the RUI widgets. The existing widgets are good but they just don't give the language/toolset the breadth. I know, I can create my own widgets, and I do, but if you're just starting out on a pilot project and are already grappling with the language and tooling, trying to then create new widgets, or extend the existing widgets, is a big ask.

Don't get me wrong I love EDT, it truly is a joy to use. For example, I'm in the process of putting together a new mobile app, which I'll share once I've beaten out the last few gremlins, and I made use of the HTML5 LocalStorage code originally developed by Chris Laffra and then adapted by Dan. Implementing this was a breeze, I truly couldn't believe how easy it was to get this working. The EGL team have done a superb job with the product. I always felt there were areas within RBD/EGLCE that didn't seem quite right, they always felt a bit a weird, a bit non-intuitive, they left you thinking "oh ... so that's how you do that!" and EDT has addressed a lot of those areas. Also, the support I've received on the EDT forum is first class, both from IBM'ers and other EGL developers.

If I was holding the purse strings where would I invest the money?
1) Enrich the RUI widgets, make them world class.
2) Get the EGL message out there. How? I would showcase the product at every IBM event there is. I would include (in the showcase) a real-world problem that organisations are facing today and demonstrate how EGL is the solution to that problem. If the EGL message can't be sold to existing IBM customers and partners then what are the chances of selling it to non-IBM customers? IBM has a very loyal customer base.

I know; to achieve those two points will take a significant investment.

Richard
Re: What's next??? [message #1015508 is a reply to message #1015260] Thu, 28 February 2013 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tad LaMarche is currently offline Tad LaMarche
Messages: 1
Registered: February 2013
Junior Member
Amen to what Dan Darnell is saying. I was invested with VARPG up to my ears when IBM pulled the plug on it.

I took a hard look at EDT to replace my current VARPG apps. Loaded it up, took the lessons and did few projects of my own. I too started getting nervous when activity seemed to wane.

I can understand that if IBM feels there is not enough participation from the group then there is no sense in putting the effort into finishing the project. On the other hand, being snake bitten before, I am nervous about diving into EDT because IBM could pull support at any time. Maybe participation in this project appears light because there are others, like myself, waiting to see if EDT is going to fly before jumping in with both feet.

The developers have done a wonderful job and are to be commended. It would be a shame to see this project like the aforementioned IBM applications end up in the bone yard.

Tad LaMarche
Midtech Consulting
Re: What's next??? [message #1016090 is a reply to message #1014981] Mon, 04 March 2013 22:27 Go to previous message
Dan Darnell is currently offline Dan Darnell
Messages: 145
Registered: November 2011
Location: Arkansas
Senior Member
What kind of time-frame are we looking at where the IBM reassessment is concerned?

When can we expect to hear which direction IBM is going to take?

Thanks,

Dan
Previous Topic:How do you convert a string to a date?
Next Topic:Is the mobile widget set compatible with the standard set of Dojo widgets?
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri Sep 19 18:00:03 GMT 2014

Powered by FUDForum. Page generated in 0.03216 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Powered by: FUDforum 3.0.2.
Copyright ©2001-2010 FUDforum Bulletin Board Software