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Home » General (non-technical) » Eclipse Foundation » [NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer!
[NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer! [message #12784] Fri, 21 January 2005 02:22 Go to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: ilias.lazaridis.com

Surpressing criticism and the counter-view is the end of the progress.

An Example:

What is the newcomer newsgroup without a message like this?:

http://www.eclipse.org/newsportal/article.php?id=97&grou p=eclipse.newcomer

Understand that censoring me - and anyone else who critcizes the Eclipse
Foundation System - will lead to a sterile low-evolutive system.

Such a System cannot produce the Next Generation Software Development
Tools.

..

--
http://lazaridis.com
Re: [NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer! [message #13164 is a reply to message #12784] Sat, 22 January 2005 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: rgardler.come_now_no_spam-apache.org

ilias wrote:
> Understand that censoring me - and anyone else who critcizes the Eclipse
> Foundation System - will lead to a sterile low-evolutive system.

[NOTE: this will be my only post to this thread, I will not argue my
point further. These are on only my personal opinions, take them or
leave them, I only ask you consider them before rejecting my thoughts
out of hand.]

Ilias, I believe that you misunderstand the issues here. I do not
believe that your thoughts are being censored, only your actions.

I note in the archives that people usually take the time to respond to
your posts, but you seem unable to discuss in a meaningful way when
those responses are anything but supportive of your views. There are
examples of supportive responses to your posts, for example, I believe
you were one of those vocal in requests for the creation of this very
newsgroup. Surely you do not expect the whole community to agree with
every word you type?

I have read many of your posts, and *all* of the ones you have linked to
in recent posts to this newsgroup. In isolation they read like you are
having a bad day, but when brought together I am afraid you just come
across as bad tempered and, dare I suggest, arrogant. I do not mean this
to be a personal comment, I am sure I get this impression due to a
difference in our cultural approach and language use. I do not suggest
that your emails are in any way a true reflection of your character.

These cultural and language barriers can be a real problem in
communities such as this and we should all be aware of them when trying
to interact. With that in mind, here are my tips for your future posts
to any online community (of course, these are good guidelines for
everyone, I certainly try to follow them in my own posts):

1 - do not assume that you knowledge is greater than those around you
and ensure that your posts do not give the impression that you have made
this assumption

2 - do not assume that your words cannot be misinterpreted, rather
assume that they are easily misinterpreted

3 - always take the time to rephrase your points if you believe that
they have been misunderstood, do not expect your dissenters to somehow
reinterpret your original words. Doing so allows the discussion to flow
rather than an argument to evolve.

4 - never *tell* people what they should or should not do. Instead, make
suggestions and support those suggestions with well-reasoned argument.

5 - never make personal attacks or accusations

6 - if writing an email in "anger" always wait at least two hours before
sending it. Before you do send it, read it, then delete it and write it
again before finally clicking send.

7 - always make allowances for potential cultural and language
differences, especially when reading other peoples communications.

Following these simple guidelines will at least minimise the chances
that a post will annoy or offend readers. An annoyed or offended reader
will never see past their emotions and get to the real gold of your
posts (for I believe there is some gold hidden in some of your posts,
it's just too much like hard work digging it out).

Ross
Re: [NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer! [message #13273 is a reply to message #13164] Sun, 23 January 2005 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slamlander is currently offline SlamlanderFriend
Messages: 31
Registered: July 2009
Member
I'd like to add to this:
1) Never say anything to anyone that you would not say if you were face to
face with them.
2) Always be polite and civil (see above)
3) Never accuse anyone of either or unethical illicit behavior.
4) If you do not have a direct financial stake, in a community/group, then
be polite to those that do (after all, it's their house, not yours).
5) Do not cause any unnecessary loss of face.

As Ross states, these are good general rules for any community/group. I
might point out that a self-appointed "evaluator" explicitly violates at
least three of the above. Also, an "evaluator" walks in the door with a
smugly superior attitude to even the owners of the house. Such a position is
pretentious and generally neither needed, requested, nor appreciated by
anyone.

my 2 centimes ...

--
T H E S L A M L A N D E R
Neuchatel, CH
http://slamlander.livejournal.com
Eclipse 3.0.1 on Sun JDK 1.50 with Win2K Advanced Server/CygWin
Caucho Resin and IIS on Sun JDK 1.50 with Win2K Advanced Server/CygWin

"Ross Gardler" <rgardler@come_now_no_spam-apache.org> wrote in message
news:csubfh$73t$1@www.eclipse.org...
> ilias wrote:
> > Understand that censoring me - and anyone else who critcizes the Eclipse
> > Foundation System - will lead to a sterile low-evolutive system.
>
> [NOTE: this will be my only post to this thread, I will not argue my
> point further. These are on only my personal opinions, take them or
> leave them, I only ask you consider them before rejecting my thoughts
> out of hand.]
>
> Ilias, I believe that you misunderstand the issues here. I do not
> believe that your thoughts are being censored, only your actions.
>
> I note in the archives that people usually take the time to respond to
> your posts, but you seem unable to discuss in a meaningful way when
> those responses are anything but supportive of your views. There are
> examples of supportive responses to your posts, for example, I believe
> you were one of those vocal in requests for the creation of this very
> newsgroup. Surely you do not expect the whole community to agree with
> every word you type?
>
> I have read many of your posts, and *all* of the ones you have linked to
> in recent posts to this newsgroup. In isolation they read like you are
> having a bad day, but when brought together I am afraid you just come
> across as bad tempered and, dare I suggest, arrogant. I do not mean this
> to be a personal comment, I am sure I get this impression due to a
> difference in our cultural approach and language use. I do not suggest
> that your emails are in any way a true reflection of your character.
>
> These cultural and language barriers can be a real problem in
> communities such as this and we should all be aware of them when trying
> to interact. With that in mind, here are my tips for your future posts
> to any online community (of course, these are good guidelines for
> everyone, I certainly try to follow them in my own posts):
>
> 1 - do not assume that you knowledge is greater than those around you
> and ensure that your posts do not give the impression that you have made
> this assumption
>
> 2 - do not assume that your words cannot be misinterpreted, rather
> assume that they are easily misinterpreted
>
> 3 - always take the time to rephrase your points if you believe that
> they have been misunderstood, do not expect your dissenters to somehow
> reinterpret your original words. Doing so allows the discussion to flow
> rather than an argument to evolve.
>
> 4 - never *tell* people what they should or should not do. Instead, make
> suggestions and support those suggestions with well-reasoned argument.
>
> 5 - never make personal attacks or accusations
>
> 6 - if writing an email in "anger" always wait at least two hours before
> sending it. Before you do send it, read it, then delete it and write it
> again before finally clicking send.
>
> 7 - always make allowances for potential cultural and language
> differences, especially when reading other peoples communications.
>
> Following these simple guidelines will at least minimise the chances
> that a post will annoy or offend readers. An annoyed or offended reader
> will never see past their emotions and get to the real gold of your
> posts (for I believe there is some gold hidden in some of your posts,
> it's just too much like hard work digging it out).
>
> Ross
>
>
>
Re: [NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer! [message #13301 is a reply to message #12784] Mon, 24 January 2005 04:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: alan.ljubljana.agtrz.com

On 2005-01-21, ilias <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> Surpressing criticism and the counter-view is the end of the progress.
>
> An Example:
>
> What is the newcomer newsgroup without a message like this?:

> http://www.eclipse.org/newsportal/article.php?id=97&grou p=eclipse.newcomer

As a newcomer, let's start with, it is a lot less frightenting,
for one.

A welcome message along those lines? Why would I want to join a
community that welcomes me with such an overtly political
message?

It was frightening to read. I hope there isn't really some
battle going on between IBM and the Eclipse user base.

--
Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com
Re: [NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer! [message #13430 is a reply to message #13301] Mon, 24 January 2005 07:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slamlander is currently offline SlamlanderFriend
Messages: 31
Registered: July 2009
Member
No, just that poster and everyone else. Google the user name and you'll see.


<alan@ljubljana.agtrz.com> wrote in message
news:slrncv8u24.rah.alan@agtrz.com...
> On 2005-01-21, ilias <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> > Surpressing criticism and the counter-view is the end of the progress.
> >
> > An Example:
> >
> > What is the newcomer newsgroup without a message like this?:
>
> >
http://www.eclipse.org/newsportal/article.php?id=97&grou p=eclipse.newcomer
>
> As a newcomer, let's start with, it is a lot less frightenting,
> for one.
>
> A welcome message along those lines? Why would I want to join a
> community that welcomes me with such an overtly political
> message?
>
> It was frightening to read. I hope there isn't really some
> battle going on between IBM and the Eclipse user base.
>
> --
> Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com
Re: [NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer! [message #13445 is a reply to message #13301] Mon, 24 January 2005 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric Clayberg is currently offline Eric ClaybergFriend
Messages: 886
Registered: July 2009
Location: Boston, MA
Senior Member
<alan@ljubljana.agtrz.com> wrote in message
news:slrncv8u24.rah.alan@agtrz.com...
>
> It was frightening to read. I hope there isn't really some
> battle going on between IBM and the Eclipse user base.

No, just between Ilias and the rest of the world.

We aren't the only group that has been graced by his presence. See...

http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html

http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bj9d7h%24gslak%241%4 0ID-147388.news.uni-berlin.de

http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=3f535efa%240%248551% 24ba620e4c%40reader0.news.skynet.be

-Eric
Re: [NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer! [message #13511 is a reply to message #13445] Mon, 24 January 2005 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: alan.ljubljana.agtrz.com

On 2005-01-24, Eric Clayberg <clayberg@instantiations.com> wrote:
><alan@ljubljana.agtrz.com> wrote in message
> news:slrncv8u24.rah.alan@agtrz.com...
>>
>> It was frightening to read. I hope there isn't really some
>> battle going on between IBM and the Eclipse user base.
>
> No, just between Ilias and the rest of the world.
>
> We aren't the only group that has been graced by his presence. See...
>
> http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html

This was funny, reading about all the mad posters on the LISP
group. This is the sort of thing belongs in a newcommer
greeting.

Sorry for feeding the trolls. I should know better.

--
Alan Gutierrez - alan@engrm.com
Re: [NEWSGROUP] - Criticism about eclipse.newcomer! [message #13656 is a reply to message #13164] Tue, 25 January 2005 07:23 Go to previous message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: ilias.lazaridis.com

Ross Gardler wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>> Understand that censoring me - and anyone else who critcizes the Eclipse
>> Foundation System - will lead to a sterile low-evolutive system.

> [NOTE: this will be my only post to this thread, I will not argue my
> point further. These are on only my personal opinions, take them or
> leave them, I only ask you consider them before rejecting my thoughts
> out of hand.]
[...]

I hope your writings have justified the coward behaviour of the liberal
part in you.

-

"People tend to avoid conflict and thrash around looking for something to
substitute - somebody in charge, a rule, a process, stagnation. None of
these tend to be very good substitutes for doing the hard work of
resolving the conflict."
http://apache.org/foundation/voting.html

..

--
http://lazaridis.com
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