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Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 11:33 Go to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.

So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
that banishment is warranted in this instance.

Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.

1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.

2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
wrong.

3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
the Eclipse consortium).

This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
show.

/mike

Mike Milinkovich
Executive Director
Eclipse Foundation
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11129 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Geoff Longman is currently offline Geoff Longman
Messages: 49
Registered: July 2009
Member
My two cents:

If he's impeding the developers (bugzilla), then give hime the boot.

Otherwise, who cares? Just ignore him. But if you feel the need to
expunge him completely, go for it. I could care less.

As for "(b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
show.". This is like the NHL lockout, the players salaries are too
high because the owners are willing to pay. Ilias has the prominence he
has because people keep responding to his garbage.

Geoff
http://spindle.sourceforge.net.



Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
> feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
> happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.
>
> Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.
>
> 1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
> The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
> newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
> significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
> that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
> There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.
>
> 2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
> nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
> IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
> wrong.
>
> 3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
> Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
> indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
> But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
> past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
> the Eclipse consortium).
>
> This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
> committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
> show.
>
> /mike
>
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11134 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: rgardler.come_now_no_spam-apache.org

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.

As one of those who felt that a "community vote" would add support to
your actions I am very pleased to be given the oppotunity to add my
support to your actions without the need to enter into an argument with
the individual involved.

Ross
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11139 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: joerg.von.frantzius.artnology.nospam.com

I'd prefer blocking him from bugzilla only, if that was possible. If
blocking from bugzilla doesn't work without blocking from the
newsgroups, than unfortunately that seems necessary.

If he is able to post but not able to use bugzilla, I'd absolutely
favour not wasting time and energy on trying to prevent him from posting!

Mike Milinkovich schrieb:

>Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
>feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
>happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
>So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
>that banishment is warranted in this instance.
>
>Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.
>
>1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
>The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
>newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
>significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
>
>
If people would just ignore him, the discourse wouldn't get hijacked. He
seems successful at stirring interest, and I'd absolutely say that
people should be able to discuss anything related to eclipse that they
find interesting. At some point it's more related to Ilias than Eclipse,
but everone should be able to find out that point for him-/herself.

>that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
>There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.
>
>
>2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
>nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
>IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
>wrong.
>
>3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
>Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
>indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
>But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
>past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
>the Eclipse consortium).
>
>This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
>committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
>show.
>
>/mike
>
>Mike Milinkovich
>Executive Director
>Eclipse Foundation
>
>
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11154 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: brauneis.us.ibm.com

Mike,

You have my support in removing Ilias Lazaidis from the Eclipse Bugzilla
and from the Newsgroups. I appreciate your asking for community feedback
on this.

--
Ragards,
David

Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
> feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
> happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.
>
> Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.
>
> 1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
> The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
> newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
> significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
> that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
> There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.
>
> 2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
> nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
> IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
> wrong.
>
> 3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
> Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
> indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
> But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
> past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
> the Eclipse consortium).
>
> This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
> committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
> show.
>
> /mike
>
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11159 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: eclipse-news.forritan.net

+1 !!!

Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
> feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
> happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.
Oh, its indeed warrented and has my full support. :-)


>
> Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.
>
> 1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
> The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
> newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
> significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
> that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
> There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.
>
> 2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
> nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
> IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
> wrong.
>
> 3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
> Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
> indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
> But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
> past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
> the Eclipse consortium).
>
> This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
> committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
> show.
>
> /mike
>
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11164 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian Hudson is currently offline Brian Hudson
Messages: 17
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Thank you for giving the community a chance to express there support
for these actions.

His use/abuse of the BugZilla system (as eclipse utilizes it), makes
his banishment well deserved.

While one could argue that banning him from Bugzilla alone would be
enough... I disagree; the newsgroup banning was also warranted.

Here is a definition of a troll by Urban Dictionary
(http://www.urbandictionary.com):

"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or
message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and
argument."

His behavior on these, and other newsgroups, could not match this
definition any better.

Brian Hudson


Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
> feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
> happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.
>
> Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.
>
> 1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
> The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
> newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
> significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
> that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
> There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.
>
> 2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
> nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
> IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
> wrong.
>
> 3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
> Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
> indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
> But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
> past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
> the Eclipse consortium).
>
> This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
> committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
> show.
>
> /mike
>
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11169 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: jaredburns.no.spam.acm.org

+1. I believe "banishment" is fully warranted.

- Jared

Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
> feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
> happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.
>
> Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.
>
> 1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
> The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
> newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
> significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
> that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
> There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.
>
> 2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
> nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
> IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
> wrong.
>
> 3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
> Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
> indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
> But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
> past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
> the Eclipse consortium).
>
> This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
> committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
> show.
>
> /mike
>
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11174 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: kim_horne.ca.ibm.com

+1 to Bugzilla banination. The Eclipse developers work hard and don't
need someone peeing in their cornflakes. He made work for people and
that is not cool.

-1 to newsgroup banination. Call me a masochist but I think the
newsgroups need an agitator like Ilias. He has on occasion come up with
some valid points. Besides, as people have pointed out repeatedly, it's
easy to ignore people in newsgroups if you're really irked by them. You
can't kill a troll by feeding it.

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

> Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
> feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
> happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.
>
> Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.
>
> 1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
> The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
> newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
> significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
> that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
> There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.
>
> 2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
> nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
> IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
> wrong.
>
> 3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
> Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
> indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
> But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
> past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
> the Eclipse consortium).
>
> This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
> committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
> show.
>
> /mike
>
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11185 is a reply to message #11112] Fri, 14 January 2005 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: see.signature.for.email.address

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.

Banish him from both Bugzilla and the newsgroups. He's reaping what he
has sown.
--
Francis Litterio
franl <at> world . std . com
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11189 is a reply to message #11112] Sat, 15 January 2005 09:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Messages: 75
Registered: July 2009
Member
+1

> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you
believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.

And none too soon.
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11245 is a reply to message #11174] Sat, 15 January 2005 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Williams is currently offline David Williams
Messages: 696
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:56:11 -0500, Kim Horne <kim_horne@ca.ibm.com> wrote:

I agree with Kim's suggestion, +1 to bugzilla, going based just based on what I've
heard, I haven't been affected ... but bugzilla does have a prettey specfic purpose,
specific rules and procedures. -1 newgroups ... seems only obscenities, personal attacks, etc.,
would warrent that -- noise is in the ear of the beholder :).

> +1 to Bugzilla banination. The Eclipse developers work hard and don't
> need someone peeing in their cornflakes. He made work for people and
> that is not cool.
>
> -1 to newsgroup banination. Call me a masochist but I think the
> newsgroups need an agitator like Ilias. He has on occasion come up with
> some valid points. Besides, as people have pointed out repeatedly, it's
> easy to ignore people in newsgroups if you're really irked by them. You
> can't kill a troll by feeding it.
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11280 is a reply to message #11112] Sat, 15 January 2005 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: borisnews.bokowski.de

> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you
> believe that banishment is warranted in this instance.

+1 to both bugzilla and newsgroup.

Boris Bokowski
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11317 is a reply to message #11112] Sat, 15 January 2005 23:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: jamesdcarroll.hotmaill.com

Mike:
I've read all of the eclipse.foundation newsgroup thread's started by Ilias
and any others that he has contributed to. As to Bugzilla I can not speak.

Reading what I have, I can only say that I would not support his banishment
from the newsgroups.

There is little doubt that Eclipse is still developing its niche in the
software world and seeks to maintain a tenuous position. Eclipse has many
warts. Hiding them does not make them go away. Nor does trying to silence
those who point them out. And largely I have found that his arguments and
the responses to them have been good. Until there was, it seems, that folks
just decided to stop listening for whatever reason. At that point they seem
to focus on his posts at the Netbeans and other groups. What does that have
to do with Eclipse? Nothing. He's a critic. He like to point out things that
he sees are wrong. So what?

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man." (GBS)

Ilias obviously has a passion. Is banning him really the best way to address
him?

I think not.

It's obvious, to some extent, that Ilias is looking for work. So give it to
him. Nice and open and free. He gets to say that he contributed to "Eclipse"
and you get to channel his energy into helping the community for the benefit
of all.

Consider:
Articles:
1. Understanding the Eclipse Foundation
2. Understanding the Eclipse Platform License

These seem to be his "hot buttons". So let him write about them. If he only
wants to be a critic then he'll run away quickly. If he believes in Eclipse
then he'll stick around. And he'll do it within the confines of the Eclipse
Foudation/ Editors. You want people to write about Eclipse, don't you?

Put up or shut up.

Plain and simple.

James




"Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
news:cs8s8o$btd$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request
community
> feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I
am
> happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11354 is a reply to message #11317] Sun, 16 January 2005 08:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: rgardler.come_now_no_spam-apache.org

James D Carroll wrote:
> Ilias obviously has a passion. Is banning him really the best way to address
> him?
>
> I think not.
>
> It's obvious, to some extent, that Ilias is looking for work. So give it to
> him. Nice and open and free. He gets to say that he contributed to "Eclipse"
> and you get to channel his energy into helping the community for the benefit
> of all.
>
> Consider:
> Articles:
> 1. Understanding the Eclipse Foundation
> 2. Understanding the Eclipse Platform License
>
> These seem to be his "hot buttons". So let him write about them. If he only
> wants to be a critic then he'll run away quickly. If he believes in Eclipse
> then he'll stick around. And he'll do it within the confines of the Eclipse
> Foudation/ Editors. You want people to write about Eclipse, don't you?
>

Now that is an excellent suggestion and far more productive than a
staight out banning. This kind of reasoned response is exactly why I was
championing a community response to this kind of problem.

Bravo James D Carroll

Ross
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11502 is a reply to message #11317] Sun, 16 January 2005 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ted stockwell is currently offline ted stockwell
Messages: 123
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
James D Carroll wrote:
>
> Ilias obviously has a passion. Is banning him really the best way to address
> him?
>
> I think not.
>
> It's obvious, to some extent, that Ilias is looking for work. So give it to
> him. Nice and open and free. He gets to say that he contributed to "Eclipse"
> and you get to channel his energy into helping the community for the benefit
> of all.
>

Hey,

I'm passionate about Eclipse too. And I do much more than just
relentlessly bombard the forums with my opinions. I'm spending my free
time developing open technologies around the current Eclipse offerings.
Giving Ilias full-time employment just because he's made a huge PITA of
himself will send a *very* wrong message to many other developers that
are working hard to make the Eclipse community a success by contributing
without demanding that the Consortium jump whenever they snap thier
fingers.

Besides, I've read many of Ilias's messages and he can't write worth a damn.

----------------------

I think the correct way to deal with Ilias is ban him from Bugzilla and
to ignore his postings.
Frankly, I don't find his postings to contain much of value and I ignore
them now.
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11576 is a reply to message #11502] Sun, 16 January 2005 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: rgardler.come_now_no_spam-apache.org

ted stockwell wrote:
> James D Carroll wrote:
>
>>
>> Ilias obviously has a passion. Is banning him really the best way to
>> address
>> him?
>>
>> I think not.
>>
>> It's obvious, to some extent, that Ilias is looking for work. So give
>> it to
>> him. Nice and open and free. He gets to say that he contributed to
>> "Eclipse"
>> and you get to channel his energy into helping the community for the
>> benefit
>> of all.
>>
>
> Hey,
>
> I'm passionate about Eclipse too. And I do much more than just
> relentlessly bombard the forums with my opinions. I'm spending my free
> time developing open technologies around the current Eclipse offerings.
> Giving Ilias full-time employment just because he's made a huge PITA of
> himself will send a *very* wrong message to many other developers that
> are working hard to make the Eclipse community a success by contributing
> without demanding that the Consortium jump whenever they snap thier
> fingers.

I think you misunderstood the post. I do not think the suggestion was
that such people be given paid employment. The suggestion is to give
them productive things they can do within the community, particular jobs
that most of us don't want to do, like writing documents.

Ross
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11612 is a reply to message #11112] Mon, 17 January 2005 02:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gunnar Wagenknecht is currently offline Gunnar Wagenknecht
Messages: 451
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Mike Milinkovich schrieb:
> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.

+1 from Gunnar Wagenknecht

Maybe it's time for a policy to have a simple rules with consequences
for people distracting developers from contributing to Eclipse.org.

Cu, Gunnar
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11684 is a reply to message #11112] Mon, 17 January 2005 08:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: amnon.netvision.net.il

Somehow I don't think that serves the community.

I think that defensiveness and getting personal is a 2 way street and
this is no different.

Every person (including me) that replied to Ilias did so because the
sense of community involvement. I believe that these threads have the
tendency to self control and diminish naturally.

I would ban people with the same reasoning as banning spammers -
unrelated, repetitive postings.

If Ilias starts non interesting threads, people will not reply. If
people think he's wrong, they tell him. It's very simple.

Of course, if foul, offensive, sexist or racial language is used, that
should induce banning, but I don't think that has been the case here.

Amnon
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #11721 is a reply to message #11112] Mon, 17 January 2005 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: ilias.lazaridis.com

[posting via http-nntp gateway, using an anonymous proxy, to bypass IP
blocking. I've kept this last joker for this moment. ]

-

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

> Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
> feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
> happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.

I don't think that your regret sincerely.

Otherwise you've immediately taken back any sanctions against me.

So, you 'punish' and _then_ ask the folks 'should we punish'? - whilst the
punished one cannot take part on the 'court' (due to the punishment).

I call this: tyranny.

Are you a tyrann, Mr. Mike Milinkovich?

My assumption is strengthen, as your technical way of applying the
sanctions violate the eclipse foundations privacy policy:

[ECLIPSE] [PRIVACY] - Direct Violation of Eclipse Foundations Privacy
Policy
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaret ools/msg/65338948c9f6818f

> So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
> that banishment is warranted in this instance.

Please decouple with precision:

I got from Buzilla this ridiculous message:
"
Your account has been disabled

I apologize, but your posts are no longer welcome here.If you believe your
account should be restored, please send email to webmaster@eclipse.org
explaining why.
"

I've not even tried to bypass this, e.g. whilst posting through a new
acount.

I like to keep the integrity of my writings, thus I write just with my
original identity.

[And of course I've not contacted the webmaster in private.]

I wanted to discuss this issue (a perfectly valid issue) on the
eclipse.foundation newsgroup (a perfectly valid forum, for this issue).

-

Now, I cannot discuss the above issue on the eclipse.foundation newsgroup
- as I was cowardly censored (blocked, whilst using anonymous data, whilst
violation privacy policy of eclipse).

> Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.

> 1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
> The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers.

As the Eclipse Foundation director, you should be more carefull with your
statements.

[This is true for the title of this thread, too]

> The
> newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
> significant amount of discourse on our site.

"trollish behaviour"

funny terminology.

"Hijacked a significant amount of discourse on our site"

I see.

> So Ilias is correct in saying
> that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
> There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.

Additionally there is an Privacy Policy - which you ignore!

> 2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
> nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
> IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
> wrong.

=> {don't think - believe}

Eclipse - A Religion is Born.

> 3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
> Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
> indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
> But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
> past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
> the Eclipse consortium).

=> {ex-OTI(IBM)}

> This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
> committers and

This was achieved by disabling my bugzilla access.

> (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias show.

I do not violate any rules of the system "eclipse.org Newsgroups".

Other people (including you) do so with their permanent off-topic stuff.

I write since long time only in "eclipse.foundation", protecting this way
developers from any annoyancies.

Point b is nothing else than a censorship attack against my person and the
criticism that I express.

I've not insulted anyone - and If someone goes nuts due to my
writing-style or due to a lost argumentation, then this is his very
personal problem.

-

Even with an 100% consens of the Community [which you don't have]:

Point b remains a clear case of _censorship_ - and nothing else.

-

I've lost very much time due to this - and I ask you to immediately enable
my access to the nntp server.

I don't expect an apology - I don't think that this folks a able to do so.

-

But, please at least respect my situation and just let me continue my work.

see section "TOUCHING LIMITS" and the end of the message:

[EVALUATION] - E07 - Sun Microsystems Talent Detection Mechanisms
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=861153&li stName=nbusers

> /mike
> Mike Milinkovich
> Executive Director
> Eclipse Foundation

..

--
http://lazaridis.com
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12185 is a reply to message #11576] Tue, 18 January 2005 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: roelandm.roelandmeyer.org

Excuse me. If I may be so bold as to interject here.

A hostile troll is the very last one that you want to have writing
documentation. I've read some of his posts and they are hardly objective. I
might also point out that the OSS community, in general, suffers from a
great lack of honest and current documentation. This attitude is one of the
causes.

I have recently had my third unfortunate encounter with a really nasty
troll, the first one being cjIII (aka Colin James III. Yes, I was listed on
his website, along with Grady Booch and Bertrand Meyers). That experience
tells me that banishing such is far preferable to putting up with them. Any
benefit that they bring far outweighs the negative feelings of hate and
general discontent that they bring.

If http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Ilias+Lazaridis% 22 is the same
guy then banishment is long overdue. I read some of that and I though that
it was the Right Reverand come back from the Internet dead. The Eclipse
community does not need the aggrivation.

"Ross Gardler" <rgardler@come_now_no_spam-apache.org> wrote in message
news:csen45$1ao$1@www.eclipse.org...
> ted stockwell wrote:
> > James D Carroll wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Ilias obviously has a passion. Is banning him really the best way to
> >> address
> >> him?
> >>
> >> I think not.
> >>
> >> It's obvious, to some extent, that Ilias is looking for work. So give
> >> it to
> >> him. Nice and open and free. He gets to say that he contributed to
> >> "Eclipse"
> >> and you get to channel his energy into helping the community for the
> >> benefit
> >> of all.
> >>
> >
> > Hey,
> >
> > I'm passionate about Eclipse too. And I do much more than just
> > relentlessly bombard the forums with my opinions. I'm spending my free
> > time developing open technologies around the current Eclipse offerings.
> > Giving Ilias full-time employment just because he's made a huge PITA of
> > himself will send a *very* wrong message to many other developers that
> > are working hard to make the Eclipse community a success by contributing
> > without demanding that the Consortium jump whenever they snap thier
> > fingers.
>
> I think you misunderstood the post. I do not think the suggestion was
> that such people be given paid employment. The suggestion is to give
> them productive things they can do within the community, particular jobs
> that most of us don't want to do, like writing documents.
>
> Ross
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12187 is a reply to message #12185] Tue, 18 January 2005 16:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: roelandm.roelandmeyer.org

s/far outweighs/far outweighed by/

"exquisitus" <roelandm@roelandmeyer.org> wrote in message
news:csjvmd$gqk$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Excuse me. If I may be so bold as to interject here.
>
> A hostile troll is the very last one that you want to have writing
> documentation. I've read some of his posts and they are hardly objective.
I
> might also point out that the OSS community, in general, suffers from a
> great lack of honest and current documentation. This attitude is one of
the
> causes.
>
> I have recently had my third unfortunate encounter with a really nasty
> troll, the first one being cjIII (aka Colin James III. Yes, I was listed
on
> his website, along with Grady Booch and Bertrand Meyers). That experience
> tells me that banishing such is far preferable to putting up with them.
Any
> benefit that they bring far outweighs the negative feelings of hate and
> general discontent that they bring.
>
> If http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Ilias+Lazaridis% 22 is the same
> guy then banishment is long overdue. I read some of that and I though that
> it was the Right Reverand come back from the Internet dead. The Eclipse
> community does not need the aggrivation.
>
> "Ross Gardler" <rgardler@come_now_no_spam-apache.org> wrote in message
> news:csen45$1ao$1@www.eclipse.org...
> > ted stockwell wrote:
> > > James D Carroll wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Ilias obviously has a passion. Is banning him really the best way to
> > >> address
> > >> him?
> > >>
> > >> I think not.
> > >>
> > >> It's obvious, to some extent, that Ilias is looking for work. So give
> > >> it to
> > >> him. Nice and open and free. He gets to say that he contributed to
> > >> "Eclipse"
> > >> and you get to channel his energy into helping the community for the
> > >> benefit
> > >> of all.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Hey,
> > >
> > > I'm passionate about Eclipse too. And I do much more than just
> > > relentlessly bombard the forums with my opinions. I'm spending my
free
> > > time developing open technologies around the current Eclipse
offerings.
> > > Giving Ilias full-time employment just because he's made a huge PITA
of
> > > himself will send a *very* wrong message to many other developers that
> > > are working hard to make the Eclipse community a success by
contributing
> > > without demanding that the Consortium jump whenever they snap thier
> > > fingers.
> >
> > I think you misunderstood the post. I do not think the suggestion was
> > that such people be given paid employment. The suggestion is to give
> > them productive things they can do within the community, particular jobs
> > that most of us don't want to do, like writing documents.
> >
> > Ross
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12190 is a reply to message #11112] Tue, 18 January 2005 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Genady Beryozkin is currently offline Genady Beryozkin
Messages: 410
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Is there any kind of policy that he vilolates? I think we should
minimize and clearly define the limitations on
"freedom of speech" unless absolutely necessary (this is open source
project after all).
Not annoying the developers can be definetely included in some policy,
but I agree it's hard to define.

Btw, if I don't mistake Ilias is now posting to this newsgroup only, so
he does not interfere
with the majority of the discussions.

My suggestion - if there is no policy - define it. Meanwhile I think
newsgroup posts are ok, bugzilla
submissions probably not.

Genady

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

>Numerous people have made well-considered requests that I request community
>feedback on my move to ban Ilias Lazaridis from the Eclipse newsgroups. I am
>happy to do so, and in retrospect should have done it in the first place.
>
>So here is my request: please post on this thread as to whether you believe
>that banishment is warranted in this instance.
>
>Perhaps I should clarify a few points that have come up along the way.
>
>1. First, we *are* trying to block Ilias from Bugzilla and the newsgroups.
>The Bugzilla blocking was done because he was disrupting the developers. The
>newsgroup blocking was done because of his trollish behaviour had hijacked a
>significant amount of discourse on our site. So Ilias is correct in saying
>that we are (so far unsuccessfully) attempting to banish him from the site.
>There are various technical reasons why we have been unsuccessful to date.
>
>2. I did this on my own authority. I did not consult the Board. This has
>nothing to do with any director or Member of Eclipse. Anyone who thinks that
>IBM (or any other Member) has anything to do with this is unequivocally
>wrong.
>
>3. I have never worked directly for IBM. I did, however, work for Object
>Technology International. So for the period Feb. 1996 to May 1999 I was
>indirectly an employee of IBM. (OTI was a wholly owned subsidiary of IBM.)
>But what that has to do with anything, I have no idea. I have also in the
>past worked for Oracle (another Member) and WebGain (a founding member of
>the Eclipse consortium).
>
>This is not a conspiracy. It is an attempt to (a) prevent disruptions to our
>committers and (b) restore our newsgroups to something other than the Ilias
>show.
>
>/mike
>
>Mike Milinkovich
>Executive Director
>Eclipse Foundation
>
>
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12193 is a reply to message #12185] Tue, 18 January 2005 17:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric Clayberg is currently online Eric Clayberg
Messages: 857
Registered: July 2009
Location: Boston, MA
Senior Member
"exquisitus" <roelandm@roelandmeyer.org> wrote in message
news:csjvmd$gqk$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
> If http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Ilias+Lazaridis% 22 is the same
> guy then banishment is long overdue. I read some of that and I though that
> it was the Right Reverand come back from the Internet dead. The Eclipse
> community does not need the aggrivation.

Indeed. BTW, it appears that Ilias is in the process of bouncing off of the
JetBrains forums now...

http://www.intellij.net/forums/forum.jsp?forum=27

They started out nice to him, but things quickly followed the familiar
pattern. As an example, Hani Suleiman posted a very harsh response to Ilias
toward the bottom of this thread...

http://www.intellij.net/forums/thread.jsp?forum=27&threa d=122131&tstart=0&trange=15

-Eric
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12196 is a reply to message #12193] Tue, 18 January 2005 17:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slamlander is currently offline Slamlander
Messages: 31
Registered: July 2009
Member
It does look that way.
Oh well, back to stealth mode.

"Eric Clayberg" <clayberg@instantiations.com> wrote in message
news:csk22u$thk$1@www.eclipse.org...
> "exquisitus" <roelandm@roelandmeyer.org> wrote in message
> news:csjvmd$gqk$1@www.eclipse.org...
> >
> > If http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Ilias+Lazaridis% 22 is the
same
> > guy then banishment is long overdue. I read some of that and I though
that
> > it was the Right Reverand come back from the Internet dead. The Eclipse
> > community does not need the aggrivation.
>
> Indeed. BTW, it appears that Ilias is in the process of bouncing off of
the
> JetBrains forums now...
>
> http://www.intellij.net/forums/forum.jsp?forum=27
>
> They started out nice to him, but things quickly followed the familiar
> pattern. As an example, Hani Suleiman posted a very harsh response to
Ilias
> toward the bottom of this thread...
>
>
http://www.intellij.net/forums/thread.jsp?forum=27&threa d=122131&tstart=0&trange=15
>
> -Eric
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12199 is a reply to message #12193] Tue, 18 January 2005 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: jamesdcarroll.hotmaill.com

From the post Eric links to (written by Hani Suleiman to Ilias) :

"Writing broken English is a lot more likely to reveal that you're a brain
damaged turd..."
"your ideas and opinions ... have more in common with a crack addled
whore's "
"you're so clearly the result of an inbreeding generic experiment gone
horribly wrong"
"If you have children, please smother them, you'd be doing them and us a
huge favour. If you have parents, neuter them, that genetic line is a dead
end anyway. "

If you can show me where Ilias has said anything even remotely as offensive
as that post I'll be the first to wish a hearty "Don't let the door hit you
where the good Lord split you" to the young man. But I typically define a
troll by the vitriol he spews, not just what he engenders.

Impudent? Yup. Immature? Seemingly. Impatient? Definitely. Nefariously
opportunistic? Perhaps.

But I firmly believe that this is a VERY important test for Eclipse as an
open community. It should be taken with great care.

James




"Eric Clayberg" <clayberg@instantiations.com> wrote in message
news:csk22u$thk$1@www.eclipse.org...

> They started out nice to him, but things quickly followed the familiar
> pattern. As an example, Hani Suleiman posted a very harsh response to
Ilias
> toward the bottom of this thread...
>
>
http://www.intellij.net/forums/thread.jsp?forum=27&threa d=122131&tstart=0&trange=15
>
> -Eric
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12201 is a reply to message #12199] Tue, 18 January 2005 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slamlander is currently offline Slamlander
Messages: 31
Registered: July 2009
Member
Like I said, I've been down this road before and the latest experience was
Sep04.
You heard my piece so I won't repeat it. However, having been goaded to
Hani's state a few times, I can well sympathise. Another point, most trolls
can never be had by any sort of rules. They always push right at the limit.
They stay at the limit, and just as close to the edge of that limit as they
can possibly get, and they stress the entire community by doing so. It
doesn't take much of that sort of stress before people start leaving.
Usually in droves. Most people don't like pain.

The constant whining and complaining isn't quite the irritant as the barely
polite rude behavior. Trolls that rant and rave all the time usually get
deleted fast and that species is, thankfully, almost extinct. It's the
almost intolerable but legally within bounds troll that depopulates and
sours entire communities. It's really a tougher, more evolved troll. This is
not a test of character and it doesn't have to be a test of "how much pain
can everyone stand". Life is too short to put up with that.

If such a troll, one that doesn't ever seem to learn civilized social
behavior, is spotted then they should be ousted before they destroy the good
will in the community. I leave it to your decision as to whether this one
qualifies. However, I did google the record and you can too. Passive
behavior doesn't work with this sort of troll. It only gives them the time
and space to destroy or damage the community.

FWIW, my two centimes.

Good night.
--
--
E X Q U I S I T U S
Neuchatel, CH
--


"James D Carroll" <jamesdcarroll@hotmaill.com> wrote in message
news:csk62e$jih$1@www.eclipse.org...
> From the post Eric links to (written by Hani Suleiman to Ilias) :
>
> "Writing broken English is a lot more likely to reveal that you're a brain
> damaged turd..."
> "your ideas and opinions ... have more in common with a crack addled
> whore's "
> "you're so clearly the result of an inbreeding generic experiment gone
> horribly wrong"
> "If you have children, please smother them, you'd be doing them and us a
> huge favour. If you have parents, neuter them, that genetic line is a dead
> end anyway. "
>
> If you can show me where Ilias has said anything even remotely as
offensive
> as that post I'll be the first to wish a hearty "Don't let the door hit
you
> where the good Lord split you" to the young man. But I typically define a
> troll by the vitriol he spews, not just what he engenders.
>
> Impudent? Yup. Immature? Seemingly. Impatient? Definitely. Nefariously
> opportunistic? Perhaps.
>
> But I firmly believe that this is a VERY important test for Eclipse as an
> open community. It should be taken with great care.
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> "Eric Clayberg" <clayberg@instantiations.com> wrote in message
> news:csk22u$thk$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
> > They started out nice to him, but things quickly followed the familiar
> > pattern. As an example, Hani Suleiman posted a very harsh response to
> Ilias
> > toward the bottom of this thread...
> >
> >
>
http://www.intellij.net/forums/thread.jsp?forum=27&threa d=122131&tstart=0&trange=15
> >
> > -Eric
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12203 is a reply to message #12199] Tue, 18 January 2005 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: rgardler.come_now_no_spam-apache.org

James D Carroll wrote:
> But I firmly believe that this is a VERY important test for Eclipse as an
> open community. It should be taken with great care.

Yes, and this is the real issue, thank you James D Carroll for bringing
us back on track.

Discussing the ins and outs of each individual case is futile, have a
community vote and take action, that's it.

In this case I believe the community vote has been had. It is now up to
the Board to decide on the appropriate action given the feedback
received in this thread.

As a community I believe our next stage is to make recommendations to
the board for handling future "trolls". It is most important that we do
this without mentioning any individuals name, it is not about
individuals, it is about community. We must focus on identifying
acceptable behaviour and the process for dealing with people who move
outside of these guidelines.

In tackling this task, I again urge the community to consider a formal
voting system. The Apache Software Foundation has one that works well
and is used in a number of other community environments. Furthermore,
judging by the number of Apache style votes (+1, -1, +0, -0) in this
thread I would say plenty of people here already know how it works -
that has to be a good start. The strength of such a system is that we do
not have to identify all possible futures, we can deal with each
individual situation as it arises.

The idea is if an "argument" is underway and discussion has started
going around in circles then a vote is called. Once the community has
voted and a majority opinion becomes evident (which it usually does),
then that is it!

NO MORE ARGUMENT.

To continue along a line that has been voted against (without new input)
would be considered unacceptable behaviour.

Only the votes of board members are binding, but all members of the
community are able to express their preferences in order to assist the
board in making their decision.

So in this situation (ignoring everything that went before for brevity)
it would have gone something like:

- you guys don't use bugzilla correctly, here's what I have done

- no, you are mistaken, it is you who are not using it correctly, the
info you are trying to put in bugzilla is managed here

- I've just reopened all my bugs because I don't want it there I want it
in bugzilla

- That is not the way we do it here, unless you can give us good reason
to change then the bugs get marked as invalid. You are welcome to
provide patches to the documents we pointed to if you think they are
incomplete but please discuss them with the relevant community and, if
necessary call a vote on your proposals.

- Can't you see you are using bugzilla wrong

- no we're not, lets vote on your proposals for a change in usage

Now, assuming that the results of the vote were adhered to there would
be no need to ban anyone from anything, if the problem persists the next
vote can be for removal of a bugzilla account. No slanging matches, no
wasted time searching for "dirt" on the individual, no accusations of
tyranny or obfuscation.

(I'm still writing all this without having read up on how things are
done here, so if a similar system is already in place please point me at
wherever it is documented and lets start using it).

Ross
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12204 is a reply to message #12203] Wed, 19 January 2005 01:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Blass is currently offline Steve Blass
Messages: 121
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
+-0

"People love the troll. Some come to gawk, some to ask the Troll
questions, others to hang out and enjoy the interactions that happen
with other visitors who come to see the Troll."
-- www.arfarfarf.com/troll/
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12205 is a reply to message #12204] Wed, 19 January 2005 02:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slamlander is currently offline Slamlander
Messages: 31
Registered: July 2009
Member
and those same people wonder, much later, why the community starts reeking
like an overly ripe toilet bowl.

You have to start asking yourself whether this community is here for
everyone's entertainment or if it exists to provide a useful service.

A troll would ride a bike, while wearing a clown suit and juggling balls,
down the center isle of a church, during Sunday Mass. Even if it broke no
explicit laws or rules and regardless of how many laughs he got, it still
should be tossed out on its bum for inappropriate behavior. By the same
token, neither is a parishioner allowed to start arguing doctrine during the
sermon. It's called "disruptive behavior" and it generally doesn't require
community approval to suppress it.

"Steve Blass" <swb@aurora.phys.utk.edu> wrote in message
news:cskuh4$qp3$1@www.eclipse.org...
> +-0
>
> "People love the troll. Some come to gawk, some to ask the Troll
> questions, others to hang out and enjoy the interactions that happen
> with other visitors who come to see the Troll."
> -- www.arfarfarf.com/troll/
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12213 is a reply to message #12205] Wed, 19 January 2005 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Carroll is currently offline James Carroll
Messages: 14
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Incorrect. It ALWAYS requires community approval, whether that be by
virtue of statute (rule of law) or the outrage of the masses (rule of mob).

Try to guess which one is in action now.


exquisitus wrote:
"... it generally doesn't require
> community approval to suppress it.

> "Steve Blass" <swb@aurora.phys.utk.edu> wrote in message
> news:cskuh4$qp3$1@www.eclipse.org...
>> +-0
>>
>> "People love the troll. Some come to gawk, some to ask the Troll
>> questions, others to hang out and enjoy the interactions that happen
>> with other visitors who come to see the Troll."
>> -- www.arfarfarf.com/troll/
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12542 is a reply to message #11112] Wed, 19 January 2005 21:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I apologize for being so quiet on this thread this week. I have been
traveling. I intend to wrap this up on Monday, one way or another.

I think that there has been some positive exchange of views on the topic.
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

/mike
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12563 is a reply to message #11684] Wed, 19 January 2005 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Amnon I. Govrin" <amnon@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
news:csgee6$i0g$1@www.eclipse.org...

> I would ban people with the same reasoning as banning spammers -
> unrelated, repetitive postings.

I actually think that this could be a decisive point. In my mind, Ilias has
crossed this particular line.

I admit that my perspective may be different than others, because many of
his posts are addressed to me and to date I have felt duty-bound to respond
to them. I estimate that I have spent over 40-60 hours in the past couple of
months reading, researching and responding to various Ilias "issues".

IMHO, to date the only relevant issue he has brought forward is that when we
changed "Eclipse.org" to "the Eclipse Foundation" in the Privacy Policy
without informing the community as required. Mea culpa. He also reported a
bug in our news portal.

Since I am currently in a state of jetlag-induced insomnia, I just crawled
through all of the posts on eclipse.foundation. If you exclude this thread,
Ilias is personally responsible for over 40% of the posts on the group (his
posts, plus responses from various parties to his threads). If you include
this thread, it is over 50%.

Now if his posts were useful or realistic, I would be thrilled to have
someone as actively interested in Eclipse. But I honestly don't think that
Ilias qualifies. Many of the issues he has raised are perfectly valid. Our
website needs enormous improvements, and we do not have nearly as much
well-organized content as I wish we did. But asserting that he (or anyone
else) could fix our universe in a week or a month just destroys his
credibility. His criticisms have never really bothered me. His proposed
solutions are what make me wonder about his grip on reality.

Ilias has in numerous posts suggested creating projects to overcome his
perceived issues with the management and governance of Eclipse. He has also
requested that the Foundation --- in writing to me --- contract his personal
services to complete these projects. This is in particular regard to his
much referenced "[PROJECT] - Collaboration and Government Infrastructure
(CAGI)" project.

I personally find the idea of lambasting a community in public and then
asking for a contract in private distasteful.

And, I personally do not have a shred of hope that he could be made to
contribute relevant work to the community.

There is one last point that I would like to make. I have been very
impressed with the points that James D Carroll made. They were very
thoughtful. I for one believe that democracy does not mean that the rights
of individuals or minorities can be trampled by the fleeting wishes of the
majority. This was well captured in James' reference to "...(rule of law) or
the outrage of the masses (rule of mob)." If you do the numbers, the
majority's interests are pretty clear. By my addition there are 11 votes for
banning Ilias from the newsgroups versus 5 against. As far as I can tell,
people are unanimous with respect to banning him from Bugzilla.

But that doesn't matter, if banishing Ilias is counter to his rights as an
individual. No one wants Eclipse to be run by mob rule.

Unfortunately, banishing a troll at Eclipse hasn't happened yet to my
knowledge, and we do not have a written policy on the topic. So "statute
law" is not going to solve the problem for us either.

So let me say this. I believe that everyone who wants to come to our
community has the right to participate fully and to openly criticize what he
or she finds wrong with our Foundation, our infrastructure, our
communications, whatever. But I also believe that as a community we can
expect participants to invest effort into understanding how we operate and
what the rules and conventions are. It is the responsibility of the
individual to join the community, not the responsibility of the community to
materially alter its governance and operations based upon the whim of a
visitor. Especially a visitor who fails to operate under the rules of
meritocracy and who refuses to invest the time and effort to learn how to
contribute to the project using the rules of the project. (That is why it
was Ilias' refusal to follow the rules with respect to Bugzilla that caused
me to take action.)

My conclusion is that we do need to have sanctions for repeatedly
anti-social behavior. Where "anti-social" does not necessarily mean
pornographic or abusive. Anti-social can also mean a steadfast refusal to
participate under the social norms and mores of the community. As Amnon
points out, spamming the newsgroups could also qualify as anti-social
behaviour.

Anyways, that's enough for one night. I am not going to make any final
decisions at 4:00am. But what I promise everyone is that in the end the
decision is not going to be made in anger or frustration. It will be made
based upon what I believe is --- on balance --- in the best interests of
Eclipse.
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12584 is a reply to message #12563] Thu, 20 January 2005 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slamlander is currently offline Slamlander
Messages: 31
Registered: July 2009
Member
This is very well thought out. However, I might suggest that you base troll
expulsions on "disruptive behavior" and very carefully fail to define it in
detail. It's those details where the modern troll will "Internet lawyer" you
into submission. There is no statute that the modern troll cannot work
around or subvert, to the detriment of the community.

http://slamlander.livejournal.com/44911.html
Hanlon's Razor:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by
stupidity.
Slamlander's corollary:
However, never assume that stupidity isn't malicious.

That's basically, the corner where many of the modern trolls operate.
Another favorite troll past-time is to make admins and group leaders jump
through their favorite hoops. A sufficiently large group will attract one or
more of these. It is inevitable. The trick is to identify and expel them
early, by their macro behavior patterns. The pattern that you have observed
is definitely troll-spoor, IMHO.



"Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote in message
news:csnb0f$7fk$1@www.eclipse.org...
> "Amnon I. Govrin" <amnon@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
> news:csgee6$i0g$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
> > I would ban people with the same reasoning as banning spammers -
> > unrelated, repetitive postings.
>
> I actually think that this could be a decisive point. In my mind, Ilias
has
> crossed this particular line.
>
> I admit that my perspective may be different than others, because many of
> his posts are addressed to me and to date I have felt duty-bound to
respond
> to them. I estimate that I have spent over 40-60 hours in the past couple
of
> months reading, researching and responding to various Ilias "issues".
>
> IMHO, to date the only relevant issue he has brought forward is that when
we
> changed "Eclipse.org" to "the Eclipse Foundation" in the Privacy Policy
> without informing the community as required. Mea culpa. He also reported a
> bug in our news portal.
>
> Since I am currently in a state of jetlag-induced insomnia, I just crawled
> through all of the posts on eclipse.foundation. If you exclude this
thread,
> Ilias is personally responsible for over 40% of the posts on the group
(his
> posts, plus responses from various parties to his threads). If you include
> this thread, it is over 50%.
>
> Now if his posts were useful or realistic, I would be thrilled to have
> someone as actively interested in Eclipse. But I honestly don't think that
> Ilias qualifies. Many of the issues he has raised are perfectly valid. Our
> website needs enormous improvements, and we do not have nearly as much
> well-organized content as I wish we did. But asserting that he (or anyone
> else) could fix our universe in a week or a month just destroys his
> credibility. His criticisms have never really bothered me. His proposed
> solutions are what make me wonder about his grip on reality.
>
> Ilias has in numerous posts suggested creating projects to overcome his
> perceived issues with the management and governance of Eclipse. He has
also
> requested that the Foundation --- in writing to me --- contract his
personal
> services to complete these projects. This is in particular regard to his
> much referenced "[PROJECT] - Collaboration and Government Infrastructure
> (CAGI)" project.
>
> I personally find the idea of lambasting a community in public and then
> asking for a contract in private distasteful.
>
> And, I personally do not have a shred of hope that he could be made to
> contribute relevant work to the community.
>
> There is one last point that I would like to make. I have been very
> impressed with the points that James D Carroll made. They were very
> thoughtful. I for one believe that democracy does not mean that the rights
> of individuals or minorities can be trampled by the fleeting wishes of the
> majority. This was well captured in James' reference to "...(rule of law)
or
> the outrage of the masses (rule of mob)." If you do the numbers, the
> majority's interests are pretty clear. By my addition there are 11 votes
for
> banning Ilias from the newsgroups versus 5 against. As far as I can tell,
> people are unanimous with respect to banning him from Bugzilla.
>
> But that doesn't matter, if banishing Ilias is counter to his rights as an
> individual. No one wants Eclipse to be run by mob rule.
>
> Unfortunately, banishing a troll at Eclipse hasn't happened yet to my
> knowledge, and we do not have a written policy on the topic. So "statute
> law" is not going to solve the problem for us either.
>
> So let me say this. I believe that everyone who wants to come to our
> community has the right to participate fully and to openly criticize what
he
> or she finds wrong with our Foundation, our infrastructure, our
> communications, whatever. But I also believe that as a community we can
> expect participants to invest effort into understanding how we operate and
> what the rules and conventions are. It is the responsibility of the
> individual to join the community, not the responsibility of the community
to
> materially alter its governance and operations based upon the whim of a
> visitor. Especially a visitor who fails to operate under the rules of
> meritocracy and who refuses to invest the time and effort to learn how to
> contribute to the project using the rules of the project. (That is why it
> was Ilias' refusal to follow the rules with respect to Bugzilla that
caused
> me to take action.)
>
> My conclusion is that we do need to have sanctions for repeatedly
> anti-social behavior. Where "anti-social" does not necessarily mean
> pornographic or abusive. Anti-social can also mean a steadfast refusal to
> participate under the social norms and mores of the community. As Amnon
> points out, spamming the newsgroups could also qualify as anti-social
> behaviour.
>
> Anyways, that's enough for one night. I am not going to make any final
> decisions at 4:00am. But what I promise everyone is that in the end the
> decision is not going to be made in anger or frustration. It will be made
> based upon what I believe is --- on balance --- in the best interests of
> Eclipse.
>
>
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12603 is a reply to message #12213] Thu, 20 January 2005 01:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slamlander is currently offline Slamlander
Messages: 31
Registered: July 2009
Member
There are times when the rule of law may be provably subverted. and rule of
mob isn't the only other alternative. In my example, the priest asks a few
of the healthier parishioners to remove the disruption. There are always
corners of social behavior where we do not want the law to go. This is
because, wherever it does go can be subverted. One doesn't always need
consensus. Local benign dictatorships also work.

"James D Carroll" <jamesdcarroll@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:csm9ru$g13$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Incorrect. It ALWAYS requires community approval, whether that be by
> virtue of statute (rule of law) or the outrage of the masses (rule of
mob).
>
> Try to guess which one is in action now.
>
>
> exquisitus wrote:
> "... it generally doesn't require
> > community approval to suppress it.
>
> > "Steve Blass" <swb@aurora.phys.utk.edu> wrote in message
> > news:cskuh4$qp3$1@www.eclipse.org...
> >> +-0
> >>
> >> "People love the troll. Some come to gawk, some to ask the Troll
> >> questions, others to hang out and enjoy the interactions that happen
> >> with other visitors who come to see the Troll."
> >> -- www.arfarfarf.com/troll/
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12682 is a reply to message #12563] Thu, 20 January 2005 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: rgardler.come_now_no_spam-apache.org

Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> My conclusion is that we do need to have sanctions for repeatedly
> anti-social behavior. Where "anti-social" does not necessarily mean
> pornographic or abusive. Anti-social can also mean a steadfast refusal to
> participate under the social norms and mores of the community.

+1 (meaning I will be an active member of the community in supporting
this kind of response - however you decide it will be manifested).

Ross
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12763 is a reply to message #12563] Thu, 20 January 2005 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: ilias.lazaridis.com

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

> "Amnon I. Govrin" <amnon@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
> news:csgee6$i0g$1@www.eclipse.org...

>> I would ban people with the same reasoning as banning spammers -
>> unrelated, repetitive postings.

> I actually think that this could be a decisive point.

I think the foundation should ban Community Members and especially
Executive Directors which are incapable to detect interconnections and
relations of postings.

And of course people which cannot use mental or technical methods to
ignore messages they dislike.

> In my mind, Ilias has crossed this particular line.
[...] - (many more other things in a jetlag condition)

> Anyways, that's enough for one night. I am not going to make any final
> decisions at 4:00am. But what I promise everyone is that in the end the
> decision is not going to be made in anger or frustration. It will be made
> based upon what I believe is --- on balance --- in the best interests of
> Eclipse.

[Note to readers]

Reading this message I've lost any good feeling and trust which I had in
the eclipse system.

I have a final hope: the jetlag helped Mr. Milinkovich to write a little
out of control.

And one more: Mr. Milinkovich just tests the Community - will they react
against the IBMilinkovich tyranny- or will they keep silence.

Will see.

-

Mr. Milinkovich you have _no_ right to block me from the nntp server.

You violate:
* privacy policy
* terms of use
* open source spirit

[I cannot imagine anymore that you do this without a backup from the Board
of Directors]

Please enable my access.

..

--
http://lazaridis.com
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12824 is a reply to message #12563] Thu, 20 January 2005 23:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: my_name_with.between_names.lombardisoftware.com

+1 - Handling of this has been good. I personally don't think the
foundation (whether its Mike, webmaster or a project leader) needs to
ask the community for "approval" to ban anti-social behavior, but I
understand people want to be heard.

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

> "Amnon I. Govrin" <amnon@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
> news:csgee6$i0g$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>
>>I would ban people with the same reasoning as banning spammers -
>>unrelated, repetitive postings.
>
>
> I actually think that this could be a decisive point. In my mind, Ilias has
> crossed this particular line.
>
> I admit that my perspective may be different than others, because many of
> his posts are addressed to me and to date I have felt duty-bound to respond
> to them. I estimate that I have spent over 40-60 hours in the past couple of
> months reading, researching and responding to various Ilias "issues".
>
> IMHO, to date the only relevant issue he has brought forward is that when we
> changed "Eclipse.org" to "the Eclipse Foundation" in the Privacy Policy
> without informing the community as required. Mea culpa. He also reported a
> bug in our news portal.
>
> Since I am currently in a state of jetlag-induced insomnia, I just crawled
> through all of the posts on eclipse.foundation. If you exclude this thread,
> Ilias is personally responsible for over 40% of the posts on the group (his
> posts, plus responses from various parties to his threads). If you include
> this thread, it is over 50%.
>
> Now if his posts were useful or realistic, I would be thrilled to have
> someone as actively interested in Eclipse. But I honestly don't think that
> Ilias qualifies. Many of the issues he has raised are perfectly valid. Our
> website needs enormous improvements, and we do not have nearly as much
> well-organized content as I wish we did. But asserting that he (or anyone
> else) could fix our universe in a week or a month just destroys his
> credibility. His criticisms have never really bothered me. His proposed
> solutions are what make me wonder about his grip on reality.
>
> Ilias has in numerous posts suggested creating projects to overcome his
> perceived issues with the management and governance of Eclipse. He has also
> requested that the Foundation --- in writing to me --- contract his personal
> services to complete these projects. This is in particular regard to his
> much referenced "[PROJECT] - Collaboration and Government Infrastructure
> (CAGI)" project.
>
> I personally find the idea of lambasting a community in public and then
> asking for a contract in private distasteful.
>
> And, I personally do not have a shred of hope that he could be made to
> contribute relevant work to the community.
>
> There is one last point that I would like to make. I have been very
> impressed with the points that James D Carroll made. They were very
> thoughtful. I for one believe that democracy does not mean that the rights
> of individuals or minorities can be trampled by the fleeting wishes of the
> majority. This was well captured in James' reference to "...(rule of law) or
> the outrage of the masses (rule of mob)." If you do the numbers, the
> majority's interests are pretty clear. By my addition there are 11 votes for
> banning Ilias from the newsgroups versus 5 against. As far as I can tell,
> people are unanimous with respect to banning him from Bugzilla.
>
> But that doesn't matter, if banishing Ilias is counter to his rights as an
> individual. No one wants Eclipse to be run by mob rule.
>
> Unfortunately, banishing a troll at Eclipse hasn't happened yet to my
> knowledge, and we do not have a written policy on the topic. So "statute
> law" is not going to solve the problem for us either.
>
> So let me say this. I believe that everyone who wants to come to our
> community has the right to participate fully and to openly criticize what he
> or she finds wrong with our Foundation, our infrastructure, our
> communications, whatever. But I also believe that as a community we can
> expect participants to invest effort into understanding how we operate and
> what the rules and conventions are. It is the responsibility of the
> individual to join the community, not the responsibility of the community to
> materially alter its governance and operations based upon the whim of a
> visitor. Especially a visitor who fails to operate under the rules of
> meritocracy and who refuses to invest the time and effort to learn how to
> contribute to the project using the rules of the project. (That is why it
> was Ilias' refusal to follow the rules with respect to Bugzilla that caused
> me to take action.)
>
> My conclusion is that we do need to have sanctions for repeatedly
> anti-social behavior. Where "anti-social" does not necessarily mean
> pornographic or abusive. Anti-social can also mean a steadfast refusal to
> participate under the social norms and mores of the community. As Amnon
> points out, spamming the newsgroups could also qualify as anti-social
> behaviour.
>
> Anyways, that's enough for one night. I am not going to make any final
> decisions at 4:00am. But what I promise everyone is that in the end the
> decision is not going to be made in anger or frustration. It will be made
> based upon what I believe is --- on balance --- in the best interests of
> Eclipse.
>
>
>
>
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #12904 is a reply to message #12563] Fri, 21 January 2005 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: jamesdcarroll.hotmaill.com

Excellent and well said. Eclipse and the people running it have many strains
as it is and suffering the rantings of a "troll" shouldn't be one. As Mike
points out though we are only now learning how this community will deal with
them. Its obvious that Mike realizes this and is making sure that the
foundations that we lay today serve the community in the future.

I may be presumptuos to say, but I think there is one rule that we can all
agree to:

Don't be a jerk.
We can work the details out together later. Together. And in the end by
having these in place and being able to demonstrate how someone has violated
them allows us to not only "banish" unwanted folks, but also protects users
from "capricious" actions of administrators. Everyone plays by the same
rules. Don't like the rules? That's ok. The web's big enough for everyone;
so long and best of luck.

I can't think of a more unfortunate consequence of the "Ilias Sanction" than
not learning from it. Remember: that which doesn't kill you, only postpones
the inevitable.

James

PS: Mike, thank you for the kind words. If you'd like to purchase more of my
great thoughts or contract my services...

.... just kidding : )
Re: Requesting Community Feedback: Troll Banishment [message #13677 is a reply to message #12542] Tue, 25 January 2005 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: ilias.lazaridis.com

[http/anonymous]

-

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

> I apologize for being so quiet on this thread this week. I have been
> traveling. I intend to wrap this up on Monday, one way or another.

> I think that there has been some positive exchange of views on the topic.
> Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

> /mike

Troll Banishment: "ilias"
http://www.eclipse.org/newsportal/article.php?id=395&gro up=eclipse.foundation

..

--
http://lazaridis.com
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