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What is the formal way to make a complaint when one has been called "An Asshole" in bugzil [message #834137] Sun, 01 April 2012 13:10 Go to next message
Hasan Ceylan is currently offline Hasan Ceylan
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Dear Fellow Eclipse Board Members,

I have been officially called an asshole by Paul Webster over the the bug report https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=242144.

I have been using eclipse since 2002, and contributed with ~100 patches, bug reports etc. to projects including but may not be limited to SWT, PDE, RT, RAP, EMF, JFace, GMF, Teneo, XWT, XText, XTend...

I am strongly frustrated by the manner I was treated and please kindly direct me to process where I can make an official complaint for the issue...

Best Regards,
Hasan Ceylan
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Re: What is the formal way of to make a complaint if you are called an "Asshole" i [message #834612 is a reply to message #834137] Mon, 02 April 2012 07:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gunnar Wagenknecht is currently offline Gunnar Wagenknecht
Messages: 451
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
(replaced with a newer posted via NNTP)

[Updated on: Mon, 02 April 2012 07:13]

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Re: What is the formal way of to make a complaint if you are called an "Asshole" i [message #834619 is a reply to message #834137] Mon, 02 April 2012 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gunnar Wagenknecht is currently offline Gunnar Wagenknecht
Messages: 451
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Hasan,

Although I'm not a board member I'd like to respond. The formal way
would be reporting an issue with a committer to the project leads (with
escalation to the PMC and then EMO).

I went through the bug and I think you misunderstund the way Paul
referenced the link to the talk given at EclipseCon. To me it seems he
started addressing the issue and asked the SWT team for input. Frankly,
the way you responded in the then starting discussion wasn't helpful
either. Although to you it looks like you never attacted somebody
directly, you'll never know how your words will be heard/understood.
Thus, you might have attacted a whole team. Same is true for Paul's
link. Otherwise we wouldn't have this issue.

IMHO Paul posted the link to remind all participants to stay focused on
the issue at hand and also remember that Eclipse is an Open Source
project and not something you (as a user) pay for to get proper support.
I really know personally that it can be frustrating if an issue is still
there after five years. It really is a resource issue because isn't a
ten people team available for fixing issues in Eclipse. But patience
pays off in the long term.

-Gunnar

--
Gunnar Wagenknecht
gunnar@xxxxxxxx
http://wagenknecht.org/
Re: What is the formal way of to make a complaint if you are called an "Asshole" i [message #835043 is a reply to message #834619] Mon, 02 April 2012 18:24 Go to previous message
Hasan Ceylan is currently offline Hasan Ceylan
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Dear Gunnar,

Thanks for not only providing your sincere and unbiased view on the issue but also providing information to make a complaint.

Comment 38 is actually not aimed at attacking but was to express the frustration.

If you look at the summary of the history:

1) 2008-07 Bug is opened, 3 months to identify the problem
2) After ~year of silence, a review takes place and 2010-02 test case is submitted
3) 4 months of silence, then I provide the smallest patch in the world that fixes the issue - it is not the final perfect solution but doesn't further break the code actually changes a mere 0 to Integer.MAX_INT in case the hint is 0.
4) This patch is used by my teams over a year without any problem.
5) Again after about a year of silence, Andrey joins in and states that he is using the patch and further cleans-up the patch, which is rejected
6) 2011-11 a test case is asked, which is provided over a year ago
7) Silence till 2012-01 and then I ping the issue, Paul calls for attention from his team.
Cool Another three months and another call.




Then I expressed my frustration, since it is almost 4 years, test cases and patches provided. Both Andrey and I took time prepare the resources and follow up the bug with posts. So the frustration was over another 3 months passed with no attention. If they were not to deal with the issue, they should have stated that and we (or at least I) wouldn't have spent that much time.

Another reason I was frustrated was, I still strongly believe if that was a win32 bug it would have been solved long ago.

That bug under normal circumstances is not a big deal, however personally have projects like 30+ m2eclipse projects and every time someone from my teams sets up a new workspace, because the progress view is broken they kill eclipse thinking it is stuck, and this is an issue in my teams. But with such a disturbing post effect, and being so simple as that drives me nuts that it hasn't been addressed over the course of 4 years.




"Eclipse is an Open Source project and not something you (as a user) pay for to get proper support"

Here I disagree with you. Open source is a two way street, it is not charity, it is joining the forces. This is even more true for projects with the size of Eclipse. In a paid-support project you are not responsible to solve the issue and there are SLA's. Here we (Andrey and I) provided our time in exchange for what we get and the time span is way so large that does not fit and SLA. Projects exist with theirs community and this is again more important for projects like Eclipse, Apache, etc. as there are a lot of non-committer contributors. Eclipse is a big umbrella, if they said they do not have the resources to solve a GTK bug, I would have had to accept that but also wouldn't have spent my time over nothing.

That is a common misconception I see in open source projects. Companies provide budgets and individuals are making a direct / indirect living out of that. What you say IMHO can only be true for projects on XDA where the saying goes on all projects "Don't ask for ETAs" as there the project owners are doing charity and only providing their work to help people and in return prove themselves, gain experience and make small bugs with donations, and only if you are successful / lucky enough to get rich. Here the the person I have been interacting with
is paid by IBM, IBM is the main member of Eclipse Foundation and whatever technology is created in Eclipse Foundation goes in to Rational Suite. And people like me therefore become customers. It does not need to involve money it a transaction to make it a service / commodity exchange thus commerce. This is a plain barter.





Back to the issue, saying "Attacking people is never acceptable" and posting a link "assholes-are-killing-your-project" means only one thing, "you are an asshole and trying kill my project", right?

Well, I am not an asshole and I will not let people take this attitude towards me. Also although the person says "I do not consider you an asshole", he also says "If the first leads to the second, yes, although that wasn't my point (Comment 52)" which is conflicting and reveals his original purpose of posting the link. As a customer I do believe I have every right to be consent on that.

Again this I only write after all what happened, I am sure the person was so much caught up with the theme of the presentation - which was only days ago - he wanted to pull that gun in the first instance.




Again I appreciate your input for the incident.

Regards,
Hasan Ceylan
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